Hero idiot or ?

[Mallard_with_a_Gun]

OK, I'm an admitted cynic. So if any of you are overly sensitive or believe ANYTHING the general media puts out, then do both of us a favor and don't read any further.

You've been warned.

A little background: I've been heavily involved in Emergency Services(specifically the Fire Service and EMS) for a over a decade now, as well as search and rescue teams. I'm also very much an outdoorsman so for once I actually know what I'm talking about. I also have lived in the State of Oregon for 27 years, much of it spent on back roads.

The topic in question is this Kim family debacle in southern Oregon. The Media has labeled this imbecile as a "hero", and called his little trek a "superhuman" effort. What they are forgetting to mention is that the last known stop prior to the entire mess, a small store, the store owner told him YOU WILL NOT MAKE IT, DO NOT TRY THAT ROAD. I can say that I've always put alot of stock in the saying, infact use it all the time myself. "you've been told, do what you want".

They talk about him getting stuck in the snow, for most of rural Oregon what he did is a typical weekend in the winter. Its what we do for FUN. Cruise upto the mountains, get stuck, build a fire, drink beer, the kids ride sleds/4-wheelers/snowmobiles etc. then simply put the rig in REVERSE and go home. They've tried to blame BLM for leaving the gate open, now they are even trying to blame the ducks game and the 911 center. Dammit all but you can't cure stupidity, the sad thing is the majority of people who go and do something incredibly STUPID, always try and blame somebody else for it.

They talk about him removing the tires from the car to start a fire. If he could jack the car up to remove the tires, why didn't he put something under the tires to gain traction and drive away???? Hello, if you know nothing about winter/offroad driving don't take your whole bleeding family with you on a trip you don't understand in conditions you clearly don't comprehend.

In law enforcement they have a term for this... Felony Stupidity. He put his family in jeoporady for no good reason, unless(this is my cynical side) that was his intent all along, and the kharmic powers that be saw fit to turn the tables on him.

Forgive me but the fool had already reproduced, so its too late to call it cleansing of the gene pool. If you want to call someone a hero, its his wife. This woman kept her wits about her and kept her kids alive in a situation that was quite obviously above her capabilties. Now that is a hero.

I get so sick of all the labels and whatnot on machinery, appliances, firearms etc. warning people that if your a dumbass, don't use this. If your a dumbass and fail to use even rudimentry common sense, you get what you deserve.

Bleh, I've got to go to a meeting. Its' my vent for the evening.

[Blue Bird]

AMEN!!!!!!!

[Dr D]

Who the heck climbs MT hood in December and why? I don't go up the mountain behind my house without enough gear to survive a week.

That kim guy decides to go for help and leaves the vehicle half naked. He could have cut up the seats and made boots out of the foam and upholstry. he could have walked out the road he drove in on. I think he got brain freeze literally before he ever left the truck. Hypothermia will make you do some wierd stuff but why leave the vehicle?

For those of you who live in the city and come to visit.

pack your vehicle for winter driving.

extra clothes blankets fire starter some nonperishable food

a shovel chains boots snow pants or better yet wool pants

water

these are basic and in the car all winter out west. maybe not in seattle but certainly anywhere in Montana idaho wyoming colorado etc.

the mountains are beautiful cruel unforgiving bitches in the winter. Some of them are that way in the summer. If in doubt ask a local or two and believe them when they talk.

Oh yeah and wild animals don't like having their picture taken with your children:freak3: no really! I mean it! its a bad idea:smashfrea

[kipstar]

is the catamaran that flipped and washed in somewhere nearby also big news in the PNW?

Big news in the sailing forums; from Sanfran to Seattle sounds like a really nasty place to be sailing in a storm.... I guess that is why Mavericks is so good.

[FTA2R]

I'm not disputing that is appears he may have made mistakes and/or bad decisions, but

it's sorta moot point now and a father and husband is dead, so it would be nice to show a little respect and compassion. the guy is dead and you're calling him idiot, fool, whatever. put yourself in his family's shoes.

let's look at a similar reverse, hypothetical situation:

Some guy from the Oregon backwoods was visiting DC and wanted to show his family the monuments at night and got lost and ended up in SE DC and then his car broke down and he went to get help and was murdered (a definite possibility in 1/2 the city), I wouldn't be like "oh the guy's an idiot" after he's was killed. of course the country boy shouldn't have become lost in the big city, especially at night, but he (hypothetically) did, and i wouldn't blame him for his own death.

again, yes, it seems that not the best decisions were made, but it's a moot point now, the guy is dead. he did what he could but was not able to prevail in the end. it can also serve as a reminder re: being prepared for the mountains and the dangers of going up there, but no need to disrespect like that.

[Mallard_with_a_Gun]

I'll grant you it is absolutely a horrifically tragic event for his wife and kids. I would not wish the loss of a parent on a child, nor the loss of a child on a parent. Both are one of the more viscious things one could endure while on this rock.

I DO however maintain it is not something for the entire world to view in full colour. I DO detest the media circus that occurs everytime the vultures smell a "story" upon which they can inflict their clever camera angles and catchy phrases.

I DO maintain that the wife is the hero, not the individual who made a conscious decision to ignore local advice and venture into the mountains woefully unprepared thus placing his family in danger.

I DO maintain that it is no one else's fault other than his own,.

I AM sick and tired of people not taking responsability for their own lives/decisions.

I AM offended by the label on my stove that reads "Caution: Surface will be hot when in use".

Sorry kiddies but life RARELY has a happy ending, 90 percent of all of us WILL DIE a undignified gnawing death. If your REALLY lucky you will exit this world via a massive cardiac event secondary to being astride twin red-headed prostitutes at the age of 103.

As for the "country boy" in D.C. Sorry amigo, he deserves what he gets. I was born in pigtown and thank the good lord every day I was transplanted before it could take effect.

I AM sorry if you or any one else is offended by anything I wrote here, all I can do is point to the warning at the top of the thread.

[Art]

MWAG, I hear you Bro. Kinda like the reporter saying the gen was faulty because it vibrated into the house and cought it on fire. I posted that in the gene pool thread. I hear the responsibility issue. Guy today in the paper blames the gov cause they cant get the power on fast enough. How about you prepare yourself a little cache of food and light sticks and hunker down in yer house and if you dont like living where trees hit the power lines you move to death valley? I dread the day we get it from Ma nature with the big one.....people running roud saying save me I didnt prepare and now you fix it. Sorry for being jaded but the same people who hate the gove blame it for not saving them. See it every day. What ever happened to good old fashioned american gumption and self relaince? Ok Im going to hell now. And sorry, I saw the whole thing in Oregon coming....They tried to tie it to a faulty navigation system showing the road as open?????? WTF did you look at the weather? DO you have AAA? Plenty of ways to save your own life the first rule being STAY WHERE YOU ARE!!!!! Sorry I can go on all night but the latest storm is about to hit and I want to sleep through it and ignore my pager.....

[Pow]

The story makes me sad, and reminds me that people don't realize that the bad things they see on TV actually can happen in real life. That family couldn't have even given a single thought to the possibility of getting stranded, because if they had then this situation would have never happened. Almost everybody I know would have done the same thing. I'm not sure if I can blame the man himself, because his decisions couldn't have been considered "unreasonable" by the standards of society. So much is given to us that we even take our own safety and welfare for granted now. Too bad there isn't a required "logic and common sense class" in every school, because that's the only possible solution to this that I see. Things like this will keep happening long after we're gone. Either that, or by some miracle only really intelligent people reproduce from now on.

So to answer your original question:

Hero? absolutely not

Idiot? not exactly

I'd consider him an unfortunate example of modern ignorance.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The thing I didn't understand is why he kept going on that road as it narrowed and then became dirt. At some point wouldn't the "duh" light click on to suggest that he maybe should have taken a left at the fork? Did he even have decent tires on that vehicle? Amazing the number of people who figure that they don't need winter tires because they have 4WD.

[Justin A.]

Isn't the first rule of getting lost "STAY PUT"? Has this changed? Nobody will find you if you're wandering around in the woods, unless you take the nessicary measures to ensure that the rescuers can follow your progress i.e. a pile of rocks in the shape of an arrow in your direction of travel (alot of work...so stay put and keep your pants on).

As for your countryboy hypothetical situation: did he get advice from a local to NOT go into that part of town because it's bad news and marines on guard duty wear armor there? No. This Kim guy was told by a local to not go up the mountain because of the weather that was blowing in, and he chose to go up anyway, endangering himself, his wife, and kids. I feel bad for his family who was left behind, but he was TOTALLY unprepared and should be held responsible for his own death. Granted, I grew up in scouting programs and learned much of my knowledge over the course of time, but even if I'm going on a dayhike, I'll watch the weather like a hawk, and if we decide to go, I carry enough food to be streched for at least 3 days, along with chem-warmers, a light, a survival knife (not to be confused with a leatherman/swiss army tool), and more often than not, a 2 way radio. If I'm going hiking in the winter, I RELIGIOUSLY bring all of the nessicary survival gear (weight disadvantage be damned, I'm gonna live.). His actions were foolish and reckless, and if he had survived and his family had died, he would probally have been charged with reckless endangerment.

As for the climbers on Mt. Hood in december...they had a perfectly good snowcave, plenty of supplies...why did they move when the weather socked in again? Not to mention they were on Mt. Hood in December. I wouldn't climb Mt. Washington in December...It's foolhardy and STUPID dangerous.

To anyone heading to the mountains in winter, I have a few rules for you.

1) Prepare yourself for any conditions you might encounter, rain, snow, bitter cold, high winds, ice, ect. And know how to use ALL of your equipment. A two way radio/LORAN/GPS/weather radio/microwave oven/space heater won't do you any good if you can't work it when you need to.

2) Know your limits and stay within them at all times. Winter in the mountains certainly isn't the time to be expanding your comfort zone, unless your boarding at a patrolled mountain :D .

3) Leave a plan behind with people you trust and stick to your check-in times with them. If you say you'll call when you hit exit 34, call when you get to exit 34. Keep them updated on your situation when you can.

4) If you get lost, DON'T WANDER AROUND LOOKING FOR A WAY OUT. You WILL make your situation worse, and make it damn near impossible for rescuers to find you. Odd though, they will find your body after you die (provided you don't fall into a crevasse or something). You know why? You stopped moving.

Oh, and if you choose not to heed this advice and head to the mountains unprepared, don't come to New Hampshire. I don't want to pay for your rescue/recovery and I don't want to see the media buzzing around while I'm trying to relax on my portch. There was a guy a few weeks ago that came up here for a hike. His group arrived around 12 noon for this hike, headed up the mountain, and it got dark. He decided to turn back because he didn't have a flashlight, and he got his sorry ass lost in the woods at night, by himself. The rest of his group is at fault as well for letting him go by himself.

Again, don't come to NH and get lost. Go somewhere else and get lost. I get really pissed when people do that here.

[FTA2R]

We've established that some bad decisions were likely made. We're humans, we make mistakes. No point in continuing to pounding the nail into the coffin here. The dude is dead. nothing will change that, whether he was right or wrong.

Justin,

I think you're just venting here, but there are other things that cost a lot more money?? "Oh, and if you choose not to heed this advice and head to the mountains unprepared, don't come to New Hampshire. I don't want to pay for your rescue/recovery and I don't want to see the media buzzing around while I'm trying to relax on my portch."

Healthcare, which you are paying much much much more for b/c of other's negligence of their own health. "Fatasses stop eating fast food b/c I don't want to pay for your healthcare." Good luck with that.

[trailertrash]

My .02 as an avid outdoorsman with years of experience

aren't you a trust fund kid still in school? you dont have "years of experience" wiping your nose yet!

[kjl]

I am also a cynic and hate media circuses of all kinds, but I think you all are being overly harsh on the guy. Hate on the media morons that wouldn't shut the hell up about it for that week all you want, but this is really just a guy who missed a turn, made a (very) bad decision to go on a road he shouldn't have gone on, got stuck, and then made a (debatably) bad decision to look for help. I say "debatably" bad as I'm not sure what kind of desperate mindset you'd be in after being trapped with no outdoor survival skills for 6 days, and your kids and wife are running out of food, and you're wondering if anybody is looking for you, especially since you're not on the route you thought you'd be on, etc.. I do know that no matter how strongly I know that "stay in the car" is the always the right choice, after a week I'd start to think about how many days it would be before I decided nobody was searching for me, and if I would be too weak to look for help at that time.

I don't think he's a "hero", but I don't think two bad decisions are enough to warrant bashing on the dead guy for being an idiot. I think there are plenty of people who are more deserving of focusing the hate on than some perfectly nice guy who the media decided to latch on to. Like, either or both political parties in their role in either getting us into or trying to sabotage this war we need-to-win/shouldn't-be-in, depending on your flavor, or John Edward, the guy who pretends to talk to the dead and preys on the sorrow of dead people's relatives for financial gain, or people who make hot dog buns come in packs of 8 when hot dogs come in packs of 10, or the lack of snow we have this year, and how it will be worse every year as global warming destroys the glaciers, or the left-wing econuts who won't shut up about this whole global warming myth.

[FTA2R]

kjl,

i'm in agreement with you.

this is one of the best paragraphs i've ever read on BOL:

"I don't think he's a "hero", but I don't think two bad decisions are enough to warrant bashing on the dead guy for being an idiot. I think there are plenty of people who are more deserving of focusing the hate on than some perfectly nice guy who the media decided to latch on to. Like, either or both political parties in their role in either getting us into or trying to sabotage this war we need-to-win/shouldn't-be-in, depending on your flavor, or John Edward, the guy who pretends to talk to the dead and preys on the sorrow of dead people's relatives for financial gain, or people who make hot dog buns come in packs of 8 when hot dogs come in packs of 10, or the lack of snow we have this year, and how it will be worse every year as global warming destroys the glaciers, or the left-wing econuts who won't shut up about this whole global warming myth."

was chuckling.

[Justin A.]

aren't you a trust fund kid still in school? you dont have "years of experience" wiping your nose yet!

Excuse me? Check your email.

I think you're just venting here

Absolutley 100%.

[Guest pat]

ok.... heard it before but whatever. the guy was a freakin idiot for going up there in the 1st place, leaving the car was the stupidest thing he could do. Showing compassion towards his family makes sense, but what he did was plain stupid and he deserved what he got.... not a hero , just a grade A moron. I dont care who you are, if you dont have ennough common sense to survive ... then you probly dont deserve to. As for the country boy being murdered theory, not completly his fault since someone killed him. That other guy killed himself plain and simple. Cant blame anyone for it with valid reason, just his own damn self.

man do stupid people ever annoy the hell outta me.

[BobD]

The guy was not smart, but he was not totally reckless. I think reckless is the word that defines where this thread is going.

Now there are a lot of reckless people out there. These are people who despite some knowledge of a risk, encourage others, or worse take thier children on whatever misadventure occurs. This guy was just ignorant.

We, in this forum, generally have some knowledge of the outdoors, so it's easy to say what an idiot, when something like this happens. That's rather like an accountant calling you an idiot for a mistake you made on your taxes.

The other point of this thread I think, is the liberal use of the word hero. A word that has become so common place in the US media that it no longer has much value.

BobD

[Dr D]

Foundations of our society that are rapidly being lost. :(

Nuff said