Shin bang...TO THE X-TREME!!!

[Guest Crosbie]

Thanks bobdea,

I had my eyes on some DeeLuxe Indy given they seem to be appropriate to 234pounders like me.

I have ye olde Fritschi step-in bindings that I have always found pretty good. I presume pretty much all hardboots should be ok with them.

I use K2 Firebird H/B step-in softies at the mo, and I'm always grumbling to myself that I can't do a toe-side carve that I found a doddle to do in ski boots.

Hence I want hardboots, but I truly fear shin bang.

[dano]

Holy freaking hell! You could have a fondoo party and let everyone dip bread in that gash. Looks like an Alien is getting ready to crack out of there.

Those pics make me REALLY love my comfy Nordica sbh's and Winds.

RUN to a bootfitter brutha...

[willywhit]

gleb, how many quarters did you stuff in there? Justin said only use one. Maybe back off the forward lean a bit. A1 steak sauce for that red meat.

damn, son....

[Bobby Buggs]

Dude that is frikkin Nasty. I have been riding in hard boots, not necessarily carving since 96 and Never had anything like that. You have something to fix there for sure. I tend to agree with Kipstar

[Guest Crosbie]

OK, thanks for advising against UPZ. I've plumped for a pair of Deeluxe Indys from http://www.blue-tomato.at

I will cross my fingers my shins don't end up like the thread starter's.

I must say, I had this idea that Mondo size was supposed to be universal, and now I find nearly every manufacturer interprets it slightly differently.

If I round down my foot measurement of 276 I end up at Mondo 27.5 (UK size 8 when I'm size 10). I hope taking a stab at 28 is going to work - though I would have otherwise plumped for 28.5.

[Neuffy]

You have jumper's/springer's legs. This is your problem.

The ball of muscle on your leg is _very_ high. This means that your calf is quite thin where the boot is in contact. Too thin.

Basically, muscle up. A thicker calf will reduce the potential movement and make your boot fit better.

[And because someone's going to miss it, I'm being a tad sarcastic. Not entirely, because this would fix it (and may be the root of the problem), but a tad because of the unreasonable nature of this fix.]

Personally, I've never gotten shin bang, but my calf muscle extends down almost to my ankle. I have very long muscles. I lean my shins into my boots quite hard, ride varied terrain, etc. Suzukas.

[Phil]

yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort.

C'mon - that is your experience, and it seems to be somewhat isolated. There are a lot of people who swear by those boots. To recommend against them is silly. I don't do well with Deeluxe or Head, but I don't recommend against them, I just realize that everyone is different and will need boots that fit differently.

[Allee]

I'm sure some people love UPZ's. You definitely have to find a boot that fits, but it's tough if not impossible to demo snowboard hard boots. It's not like you can walk into the local sports store and try on three different makes like ski boots. My Raichles fit OK, but that's not to say that Heads or UPZ's woudn't fit better.

Gleb - you rode for 11 hours? I ride for five and I'm bagged. Your girlfriends must be very lucky girls. :D

[zoltan]

serious: I think cutting the liner would comepletly diminish the liner's life span. Good idea though. I'd defintly try it out but I'm getting my thermoflex molded tomorrow.

I don't mean cutting a notch into the liner of the boot, but the actual hard plastic tongue of the shell. Take a look at a LeMans tongue to see what I mean.

[John H]

"yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort."

I've had Deelux, Burton and UPZ boots and the UPZ's are the best fit of all for me. I haven't tried the Head boots because Head Canada didn't come through with their order, boots ordered in the summer and promised delivery, but no boots.

Maybe you don't like UPZ boots but other people do. Maybe it's attitudes and ignorant comments like yours that have caused people like Bordy and YYZ Canuck to not bother with this site anymore.

Sorry having a bad day and needed to vent and stupid comments like this just p*** me off.

[Guest Crosbie]

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?p=44737

http://www.bomberonline.com/reviews/boots.htm

Having just been comparing Deeluxe and UPZ with a view to boots for a tall and 234lb heavy rider, I didn't need much of a comment to tip me over the edge.

I vaguely recall suspecting that my shin bang was caused by the lowish front cuff of the boot's rigid shell pressuring through the front of the liner when I leant into my shins.

My ski boots had no such issue. Perhaps my ski boot carving style was not suitable for the new boots?

I'm hoping that the Deeluxe Indy's front cuff is fairly high.

And yes, in the UK hard boots are like penny farthings. Even the sole importer of Deeluxe boots to the UK does not import their hardboot range.

It's strictly a case of buy before you try. :rolleyes:

[Phil]

You are 234 and tall? Why does that mean that UPZ would not be good for you?

I still don't know what you are looking at. The thread did not seem to have a decent argument against UPZ. Neither the reviews of the Raichles or the UPS's are current.

On a side note, I wonder why they are not.

Anyway, what does your size have to do with it?

It probably sounds like I am a UPZ pimp. I really am not. I like mine, but I think that Head and Deeluxe make great boots as well.

[Guest Crosbie]

The problem is that when you can't try boots before you buy 'em, you tend to ignore the people who rave about them and compare the merits of the arguments of those who criticise them.

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/archive/index.php?t-64.html

Long shin bones plus heavy weight means the boot cuff is liable to pressure the shin. Well, this is my theory.

When shin bang ruins your week you'll do anything to avoid it ruining another one. However, I'm tempted to find a compromise between the support of my ski boots (albeit at skwal angles) and the comfort and compactness of my soft boots. Hardboots would seem to offer support at reasonable angles and a short footbed

- and hopefully reasonable comfort.

So, for me, it's not a matter of whether UPZ is good or bad, it's whether there's the slightest thing that might tip my choice one way or the other between UPZ and Deeluxe.

I'm quite happy to entertain the possibility that if I could evaluate both, it could quite easily be the case that I'd find UPZ better. Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury - I have to go by hearsay.

[John H]

Having both Suzuka's and UPZ, my experience is that the Suzuka's are a better fit at the boot top(less likely to cause shin bite) but are a narrower fit in the foot area. As I have a double e width foot I'm finding the fit of the UPZ to be better for me than the Suzuka's. The Suzuka's are fitted with thermoflex liners and I've replaced my UPZ liners with Lange ski boot liners. I believe that the ski boot liner is what is eliminating any shin bite as the factory liners seem quite thin at the boot top. Both boots were used with Booster straps against the liner. Both boots work well and fit well, it's just a matter of which fits your foot better.

[Phil]

I hear you. Unfortunately, all your references are for older boots (UPS and Raichle, not UPZ and Deeluxe). I weigh the same as you and my shins are at least as long if not longer and I have not had a single problem with UPZ. However, I have had my setup dialed for ten years, so that is no longer a part of the equation.

As a general rule, I think that shin bang can be attributed to a poor setup for riding technique and/or trauma. I think it is rare for boots themselves to actually be the culprit.

In the end, you are right - without being able to try them on, it is all about what people have said. You have to make your best guess and go with it. I wish you luck.

Height and weight were just not valid points.

[zoltan]

Maybe you don't like UPZ boots but other people do. Maybe it's attitudes and ignorant comments like yours that have caused people like Bordy and YYZ Canuck to not bother with this site anymore.

Crap! Have we lost Bordy as well?

[kipstar]

I had an off-piste guide (who was pally with a shop) persuade me to dump my comfortable ski boots to improve my carving with an evaluation of the real McCoy - hard snowboard boots (dunno what make).

I had shin bang/burn after a couple of hours, that ended up ruining the rest of my week (5 days). Nothing really visible, but it wasn't half painful.

I wonder if it's because I tended to lean my shins into the boots?

One of the reasons I went to soft boots was because of my bad experience.

If I'm a heavy guy, am I going to find that this is an intrinsic problem to hardboots?

Any hardboots in particular that tend to cause shin pain? Ones to avoid or veer towards?

[NB My first attempt at posting to this thread didn't turn up - apologies if it turns up later]

if you were riding like you do in ski boots, then probably yes. Snowboard hard boots are a lot softer, so you kind of need to lock your calf muscles more so your heel comes up rather than just leaning into the cuff mechanism.

Also...it almost is always with your back leg shin; so starting a bit easy and checking that the sock isn't bunched up or doing strange things can help as well once things start to hurt.

My problem was that the first day was man made snow with a light dusting of rain then frozen over, so it was very very firm; plus I don't have that much feeling in my shins anyway; by the time I realised I was going to hurt, I was looking like the lovely pic you see here today in this thread.

[bobdea]

"yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort."

I've had Deelux, Burton and UPZ boots and the UPZ's are the best fit of all for me. I haven't tried the Head boots because Head Canada didn't come through with their order, boots ordered in the summer and promised delivery, but no boots.

Maybe you don't like UPZ boots but other people do. Maybe it's attitudes and ignorant comments like yours that have caused people like Bordy and YYZ Canuck to not bother with this site anymore.

Sorry having a bad day and needed to vent and stupid comments like this just p*** me off.

ohh, you're cool, sorry for making Bordy and Dave leave both of them were totally my fault, why don't you check the threads that rubbed them the wrong way prior to making a ignorant comment.

You're the ignorant one here, do a search of my posts of why I don't like UPZ boots, since you probably won't I'll give you the condensed version

1 UPZs in some sizes don't fit in some intec bindings such as the intec TD1

2 They come with a liner that is very low quality that is useless to many of us here, many of us here think this that have these boots

3 The cuff alignment mechanism is cheesy, not as bad the pre AF series raichle/deeluxe boots and the pre '99 burton stuff but compared to the AF, fire and stratos it's not as well thought out

4 the toe blocks should probably be T-nutted

5 a little rubber on the toe blocks would be nice so you don't break your leg while walking in them.

6 the placement of the hole for the intec cable is too close to the center of the heel pocket, making that area of the boot that much narrower and a huge pain in the ass to fix, this issue is one that I've not had with any other boot and others have expressed the same thing to me.

7 when flex the boot forward the buckles collide, not that this boot has much forward travel in the first place which is not a bad thing if you don't think that you'd miss it but for most people they would be better off having the option to limit it by putting in a stiffer spring or cranking the nut down on the spring.

my comments on these boots may have rubbed you the wrong way but I have damn good reasons for making the suggestions that I do with them.

Out of the box they are probably the hardest to deal with for someone trying to dial in their gear but don't have allot of experience doing so.

John, you clearly have a good idea of what you need and you mentioned putting Lange liners in your UPZs so for you the UPZs work great and that's fine. I could of made mine work too, if I had decided to make them my primary boots I'd have probably put a tongued ski boot liner in them as well, the thing is that I'd not feel right about telling someone who is not ready to deal with some of the not so obvious issues with the boots in question.

In all there are less headaches for most people with the other two brands in particular in the area of fit with the boots that come with the thermoflex liner.

All you had to say was that you thought I was wrong and say so in a articulate way, I realize that I was not articulate in my first post but I did not feel I needed to be.

[bobdea]

You guys took my post like I was saying that the boots work for no one, not the case at all they just have some issues that are a pain.

I was simply stating that for many people there are multiple reasons why the UPZ may be harder to deal with than other boots and there are drawbacks to them some of which are arguable and others that are not.

the thing is that most people are not willing to deal with all the BS or they get boots that don't work and if they're a beginner they get a bad first impression of the experience.

Who the **** wants to buy a boot and find out that they don't fit into one of the most common step in bindings out there?

The UPZ is the shizzle if you throw out the liners and spend another $130 to $400 on some after market liners and do a couple other things to the shells but there are only a select few of you that want to deal with that when head or deeluxe probably would of worked fine in most cases.

There are some other stock liner options available for the UPZs I guess but they are apparently not available in north america, if they are Dan must of forgot because I remember asking if there were.

[Phil]

Bob,

I certainly hope that you know I respect your opinion. I certainly do not want to be part of these bitch sessions that have been prevalent on BOL of late. We have both been around long enough to know that. I just have not found the same problems with any of my (or my friends, students, or acquaintances') UPZ boots. Of course, some of the problem sounds like it may be size specific, ie. the buckles interfering with the flex, and the trouble fitting into bindings.

Actually, the toe block is probably worse than you think now. It IS t-nutted, but the bolts actually stick out further than the toe pad, so now you walk on the bolts under the toe! My older ones had the same hard toe block, but at least the bolts did not stick out.

As far as the cuff, the liner, and the intec hole placement, I have never had a problem with any of them, and I have only heard a couple people on here complain about it.

I am not saying that the liner is GREAT, but for me, and a lot of others, it is acceptable and even comfortable.

Either way, boots are boots. I am glad people are buying hardboots - especially to replace ski boots.

I want UPZ to keep a good business, though, so I can always replace my boots with the same thing when they wear out.;)

[Blackbird]

OK, thanks for advising against UPZ. I've plumped for a pair of Deeluxe Indys from http://www.blue-tomato.at

I will cross my fingers my shins don't end up like the thread starter's.

I must say, I had this idea that Mondo size was supposed to be universal, and now I find nearly every manufacturer interprets it slightly differently.

If I round down my foot measurement of 276 I end up at Mondo 27.5 (UK size 8 when I'm size 10). I hope taking a stab at 28 is going to work - though I would have otherwise plumped for 28.5.

Funny you say that... I'm mondo 27.5... but that size kills me in Hardboots..I rock 28.5 and they are perfect with a little bit of heel work on the outside of the liner.... Plenty wide and excellent heel hold.....Hmmmm Kinda funny that

[bobdea]

Phil, it's not really you who pissed me off

even if my problems were size specific that reinforces what I am saying, the boots have a odd shell shape and results with them are inconsistant.

I am not the only one who feels this way, I have asked a certain vendor why they don't stock them and I got a similar answer about this.

[John H]

Phil, I'm obviously the one who pissed off Bob. I just don't think anyone should blatantly critisize a product that many people use and are very happy with.

Bob, I never said you personally were responsible for the departure of Bordy and Dave. I stated that it was comments like yours that can cause people to get upset.

And yes I've been on this site a long time, even though that shouldn't make any difference to how people react, and I've seen a lot of very knowledgable people leave due to "poorly worded" responses and silly arguments.

Sorry if I pissed you off, it wasn't you I'm pissed at, it is the general commentary of late on this board that I'm getting ticked off with.

[Mike T]

I just don't think anyone should blatantly criticize a product that many people use and are very happy with.

Why not?

If someone is unhappy with something, they have every right to say so and explain why. Readers can decide what to do with the information themselves.

I for one want to make an informed decision before I buy. For any given product I expect some people to love it and some people to hate it and a lot of people to think it's "pretty good" or "OK". I want to hear all sides of the story. I found Bob Dea's comments to be very useful; I like a lot of forward flex in my boots so I would definitely try before I buy knowing about his experiences. I wish I had done that with Heads because I had the same issue with them. I've "blatantly criticized" the Heads before (or maybe I simply listed my personal issues with them - I guess it's all in the wording?) even though I know a ton of people like the Heads better than any other boot. I didn't like them. And I think I'm entitled to my opinion on Heads and Bob is entitled to his opinion on UPZ.

[John H]

Mike,

I agree if they explain why they don't like something thats fine but that was not the case here.