hybrid boot concept

[Pow]

I saw a pair of old ski boots in a diner recently... you know, the kind with DIN toes and heels but are still lace up. they looked sorta like this, although the toe and heels on the boots i saw would fit modern alpine skiis better than these old cross country boots:

When I saw them, I thought "hey, those would fit in an alpine binding and a softboot binding... why doesnt anybody make boots that can fit in both?" Obviously Im not going to pick up the ancient history in this picture to use as my new boots, but I'd like to know if anybody has ever attempted making an uber stiff softboot say like say the driver X but with Toe/heel blocks like ski boots. Maybe even with hard plastic underneath the soft shell, like a hardboot in disguise. A boot like that would go great with an all-mountain carver or powder board. It would attract more customers than just alpine riders too because it can be used with a softboot binding. so it would make sense for a company such as deeluxe to develope something of this nature. It may even be a good boot for freestyle skiiers, who need a softer boot that still fits their ski bindings. has anyone tried, does anyone do it now without my knowlege, and does anybody else think this would be a convenient boot to have?

[boarderboy]

Many, many years ago, I had a pair of Kastinger SuperPipes. They were a sort of soft plastic, lace-up, alpine hiking boot with Vibram soles that would fit some step-in crampons and some hardboot bindings. (Early SnowPros worked really well.) They would also fit in some softboot bindings.

I thought then, and still do, that this was a great idea.

Alas, the marketplace can be a cruel Muthah, and the 'Pipes sold in the US for only a year or two as far as I know.

Those of us who're into laid back, all mountain freecarving are ill-served right now. Hardbooting being such a small niche in a big, youth-orientedl snowboard industry doesn't help in this area.

My two cents is that a lace-up, easy-hiking hybrid boot with a relatively low cuff would be a great addition to the market. I'd buy a pair pronto.

As it is, I'm reduced to hoping that C Klug and Ibex will bring back the mellow Earth hardboot in a size 13.

cheers and happy motoring

[Neuffy]

What about a snowboarding variation on the Salomon hybrids?

Actually, are those decent for skiing either? I'm considering getting a pair for my girlfriend, who will be starting to ski this winter.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If it's stiff enough to work in a plate binding, it doesn't need a strap or a highback. If that's the case, may as well be a step-in. I don't even know if anymore of the backless step-in bindings are on the market anymore.

[BlueB]

Nordica had the SBH model in the past. Ugly looking thing...

Otherwise, AT boots are soft and work with plates. George and other BC experts would tell you more about it.

[Boarder_Ted]

I actually had a pair of boots like that back in the day. The were "Jax Originals" . A very lovely shade of purple and white. I used them on a Burton Free 6 and later in plate bindings on my Hot Logical. (Sorry Jack. Yes, I rode an Asym.) The hard plastic lower reduced strap pain tremendously but they were admittedly soft in the plates. But man, I thought they were the bee's knees. Funny how times change. Afraid they are long gone now.

[crucible]

Ah, the Holy Grail of one boot to do it al....

I have used Koflach double plastic mountaineering boots for backcountry snowboarding for the past 20 years. Back in the day, I was too poor to have the 3-4 pairs of boots that I have now, so I made do.

Here are the notable tweaks that I have had done to them to make them better for riding:

-replaced the inner boot with a Intuition thermo-moulded custom modded for my feet- cuts the total boot weight by 35%.

- added a Powerstrap on the top of this liner- it really helps in keeping it tight for the descent.

- added a ski boot buckle from a Nordica TR9 ski-mountaineering boot to the ankle cuff of the boots - helps control the stiffness for riding.

These boots now can be used for rockclimbing climbing, ice-climbing, snowshoeing, snow walking, splitboards, and snowboarding (both plate bindings and strap bindings). It doesn't have anything near the control and lateral stiffness of a Raichle Suzuka, but they do work on plate bindings if you know what you're doing.

The biggest difference that I notice is that you only have half of the support from your alpine hardboots, so you have to stay much more centered on top of your board- with a corresponding quiet upper body. Try and do a EC turn with this type of set-up, and you'll be faceplanting in a hurry.

[Pow]

Hmm... so it can be done, but there isnt a boot out there yet that's the best of both worlds.

I tried putting my burton winds in my softboot bindings, and assumed the buckles would get in the way. Actually, the buckles didnt make too much a difference, its the forward lean adjuster/spring mechanism in the back that really sticks out. itd also be kinda awkward to ride with the toe and heel blocks as they are... almost like riding in stilletos. Im wondering how youd be able to keep the support the hardboot after getting rid of that back mechanism... if this can be done,then we have a softboot/hardboot hybrid shape to work with, the rest is just modifying the sole and the lacing/buckling system.

[Dave*]

A few years back K2 made a hybrid boot called the "?sidewinder?", looked a bit like an AT boot , worked with plates and also had the little attachments on the bottom to work with the backless K2 clicker bindings.

Many a post on these back in the older style BOL forum of a few years back.

Dave*

[Mr.E]

My AT boots (Crispi Diablo) are taller and stiffer laterally then my snowboard boots (Raichle 325).

My issue with lower cuff hard boots is that they are either way to soft (mountaineering boots) or stiff enough to cause real issues at the boot cuff top. There is a call for a splitboard binding with a mountaineering boot lower and a soft boot upper for work in strap or hybid bindings (but not high back less plates). I'd reather just go hard boots, but if you are interested, check out the boots threads at splitboard.com

[Jack M]

I actually had a pair of boots like that back in the day. The were "Jax Originals" . A very lovely shade of purple and white. I used them on a Burton Free 6 and later in plate bindings on my Hot Logical. (Sorry Jack. Yes, I rode an Asym.)

I was going to mention those boots with the killer name.

There is no penalty for <i>having ridden</i> an asym, as I did for 4 years - but there is for riding one now!! :D

[Pow]

I was thinking that instead of a spring, a eurothane honeycomb (similar to the air shocks in nike sneakers) around the joints might work well and save space. Then the back of the boot could look more like this instead of this allowing it to fit between a strap and a highback.

[bumpyride]

I bought a pair of the K2 full plastic Snowboard/Climbing boots that fit in the Clicker Bindings. Stiff in forward and back motions, and a little play side to side, which I consider a good thing. There is no built in rocker, a relative flat sole like in plastic climbing boots, so they don't slip when kicking steps. It's a great idea that (I believe) didn't get released in the US. It also works with my Clicker/K2 shorty Approach skis, clicker crampons, and clicker snowshoes.

These boots are as heavy as full fledged plastic mountaineering boots, but way more adapatable. Saves tons of weight with the clicker plates, not to mention the board lays flat on your pack. I remember seeing them when they were first promoted and then being very disappointed when they didn't release them. The ones I got were salesman's samples in an 8 1/2/ 9, and are perfect for themafit liners. They also didn't release the hybrid soft/hardboot model that wasn't nearly as stiff, and probably wouldn't be as suitable for high angle ice.

They may be available from Europe, like on ebay.

[Rob Stevens]

I ran Koflachs way back when (Hunters, Valugas & Superpipes) and they were great compared to the other softboots of the time (Sorels).

The penultimate mod I rocked on my Hunters was adding the tongue and spoiler from a Raichle Flexon 5 ski boot (black and red). I drilled out the Koflachs stock cuff and the Flexon spoiler bolted right on with no re-drilling. The tongue under the laces was an addition I made well before the spoiler. The day I got my Sims Blade (The original pointy / square one), I knew I needed more power. A few years later, I was given a Kemper Screamer and a F/S board. I took the highbacks off, put the spoilers on (which sat right on top of the baseplate, just like a highback) and had low angles for the F/S and high on the Screamer. Lots of lateral flex (to "tweak") and cock-stiff fore and aft to carve.

The one thing I did on all my Koflachs was to shave off the heel and toe. I could reduce my sole lenth by at least an 1.5 inches. Otherwise, the overhang (even in a 10) was brutal. Obviously, using them in plates was out of the question.

Today, the only thing good (in my mind) that could be taken from these setups would be the Vibram sole. Burtons Driver X has one, but it's weak. I can easily flex it with my hands, so your legs would go right through it.

A true Vibram sole would not flex at all. This used to allow me to have great edge control, without cranking my straps down as hard as others would have to. The full length stiff sole also acted in the same way modern curved baseplates do. I had full support under my toes when everyone elses boots were folding over the ends of the too-short baseplates.

Fuzzy and I were talking about carbon fibre footboards in Nagano and thought that might be a way to get back into that feeling. My fantasy boot would be my 32 TM2's with a real Vibram sole.

For true carving, I'll keep the proper hardboots.

This is alot like whats happening in MTB right now... The industry is trying to promote the "One Bike". If you like to ride trails, in an XC kind of way, but also downhill properly (at speed, on a big track), you need 2 bikes.

If you're that dedicated to freeriding and alpine, you need 2 boards and 2 pairs of boots. Too much $$? Well then, you're not that dedicated.

I do like Bumpyrides K2 setup. It does extremely well in its chosen arena.

[Mr.E]

I'm still a die hard tall cuffed hard booter, but this stuff is cool if you swing that way:

http://talk.splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=664&highlight=

http://talk.splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1713&highlight=

http://www.biglines.com/photos_large.php?photo_id=42741