WinterGold

bola, thank you for making it even more confusing ... BUT that was not the point of the "discussion" - it was about Full Race Pro Team and Full Race Titan riding like "day and night", "vastly different flex and snap", different titanal thickness, etc. Maybe Sigi was untruthful to me, but why should he do that? Maybe the website and the new catalogue is wrong. Maybe mc-alex´s boards have the wrong construction ... etc., etc. And something else - this thread is about the 2010/2011 models ... and I assume that nobody here has ridden them yet.

Small update - today I had the chance to ride the new plate system ... it is similar in construction, but the front and the back are connected via two curved strips of metal on both sides - felt very nice, but I didn´t notice that much of a difference - maybe more riding time would bring up something. And I have been on an Apex TheFast 178 GS - it had rained two days ago and tonight it was rather cold, so in the morning the slopes were VERY hard. But this board has incredible edge hold. On my backside my bum was already sliding along the snow (or should I say ice?) and this board didn´t care at all - I was very impressed. And although I normally only use boards with a 20cm waist, I had zero boot out problems on the 178. It has a 19,4cm waist and the plate gives you a bit more room ... nevertheless it was surprising for me ...

Good point, Mr SG!!! ;)

In 1982 at the first National Snowsurfing Championships they already measured speeds of 60 mph+ I still remember the SG races from back then ... really spectacular

The discussion here gets in the wrong direction ... all my information is directly from Sigi!!! I have the 2011 catalogue here ... it says 0,3mm titanal layer for both models ... and if you look at the website for this year, you will also find 0,3mm titanal layers for both boards ... as some said - what should be the advantage? mc-alex is an insider and he has both models ... he also knows what he is talking about ... The force is completely new - as I said before - the running length of the 165 is 15cm longer than this year´s 167!!!

Thanks for the link ... There seem to be bigger differences than I (we?) thought ... the nose has custom decamber (more than usual?) ... and the radii ... really strange ... any comments here?

You are very stubborn ;) ... but Sigi also confirmed that the construction is the same ...

Directly from Sigi Grabner - The Full Race Pro Team and the Full Race Titan are exactly the same boards!!! Only the limited topsheet and base graphics are different (and the price). For 2011 there are some very interesting new sizes (which have been missing from the raceboard market the last few years ... at least in Europe ...). The new full race are a tad bit softer ("adapted softened flex"), but they are also torsionally stiffer (new angles of the glass layers), which is nice :D ... The Full Carve has the same shape as the Full Race, but is a glass board - some prefer it in soft snow and it is more affordable for teenagers, etc. The Force is a completely new development and seems to get very good feedback ... it is not a titanal construction, because lots of riders prefer glass constructions for SBX (all the Oxess in the Olympics were glass/carbon constructions ...) ... Any more questions?

Excellent answer! (deep bow) This helped me a lot!

There are even very good riders who set up their Vists differently. I think it is also a matter of your riding style and preferences. Some fix the middle on the Vist and let front and rear float. I think the important thing with the "new" plates is that they can compensate or increase certain aspects of your individual riding style. See the different setups for Anderson and Lambert or Karl´s plate which doesn´t suit Grabner supposedly. Some riders are extremely centered. Others tend to bend their upper body more and so have more pressure on the front, etc. Plates can help in various ways.

Thank you very much, philfell. The Oxess and the new SG seem to be the most extreme shapes when it comes to running length (square nose and tail). The running length of the new SG 165 is 15cm longer than of this years 167 ... is this the way to go? Apex Pro+ 165 also looks very good (slightly longer nose). And it is a full metal construction. And then there is Kessler ... so many options ... a demo would be nice, but almost impossible ... What are some pros and cons for metal in BX?

I have a question for philfell or other insiders. Is metal a big issue in BX at the moment? Oxess seem to build boards with metal as well as without. Many BX riders seem to be on boards without metal or am I mistaken? The 2011 SG (Force Pro Team) is a non-metal construction and according to Sigi many riders prefer this setup. Is it just personal taste? What´s the difference?

I have been riding a Kessler KST SL 162 a lot this season and I was surprised how good an allrounder this board actually is. I read BlueB´s report of his narrow BX 168 and thought that this must be an excellent allrounder. And I remember that some people here kept complaining about the small radii of most boards built for softboots (e.g. Jack, if I remember correctly). But the new SBX boards seem to have everything - Oxess is building a 163 with either 12m or 14.5m radius. And for 2011 SG will have a completely new SBX board which is 165 and also has 14.5m radius. The boards are wide enough for middle sized boots (around 26cm waist) and they have all the features from the modern race shapes - low decambered nose and tail, taper, etc. All these elements make them perfect for a great variety of conditions. And they also seem to work quite well with hardboots. So they must be THE new "having-fun-in-almost-all-conditions" boards. Or do I miss something here? One interesting thing - is it correct that all (or most) of the black Oxess boards don´t have metal in them? The 2011 SG will not have a metal construction (like this year) and it seems that some (many?) riders prefer this construction for SBX. Only the white Oxess are titanal and there weren´t that many in the Olympics, right? By the way, the running length of the new SG 165 is 15cm (!!!) longer than the SG 167 from this year - that´s amazing! I wouldn´t trade in my dedicated race boards, but as an addition I´m really tempted at the moment to get a BX board :D ...

I agree with frunobulax that the Race Physics was a clever design and the binding had a nice feel to it. But there were sooo many issues. I was product tester at that time and I know the person who designed it (and still has the molds, etc.) and I had to laugh when I saw the picture of patmoore ... I remember one time running around in socks on the glacier ... there are funnier things I can think of ... ... lots of release problems at certain temperatures ... for racing (Grabner) it was good, but for everyday use there were some problems ... at the moment there are no plans of reviving this binding (although the mechanism was rather clever and together with the Speed Hooks you could design a pretty short boot/binding combination). Who wants to keep the sport "simple"? Whatever improves my ride is welcome. Bring on the hightech innovations ... Progress keeps the sport interesting and alive ...

Yes, the Olympic dress from the Americans is made by Burton (and it is Goretex ...). I don´t think you can buy it, but Burton had Goretex jeans in their line one and/or two years ago ... What board is Nate Holland on? It looks rather "classical" shapewise ... not like the other newschool boards. So many Oxess this time ...

Here is one link - http://www.surfeye.com/EYEStune/ACTIVEindex.htm

What plate is Heidi Neururer using (the one on the left)? (So many Vists again ...)

Ok, I reread your post - ... the others just interfere with it's performance ... And pros who win competitions this year would use such a plate? I don´t doubt that the Apex plate will work very well and Karl´s plate also has some interesting construction elements, but my point is how big can the advantage be, if people are still winning WCs on the Vist? I´m sure that there is a lot of room for improvement, but the Vist is by no way a "bad" plate ... that´s highly unlikely ...

@lowrider - do you really think that plates like the Vist do not work??? We should tell lots of pros about this ... but Prommegger (and lots of others) seem to place consistently on the podium anyway ... those pros ... no idea what works and what doesn´t :D ... @Jack Michaud - it took me about 5 whole days of riding before I got used to the feeling of the plates ... but then ... For me it heavily depended on the condition of the slopes. We had bad conditions at the beginning of the season (lots of ice, artificial snow and bumps/ruts). The plates shine in such conditions. For me there is no way around this. The "better" the slopes, the less the need for plates ...

The question of which brands are included and which are not, was my first question in the "first contender" thread quite some time ago. I agree with philfell that SG would be VERY important. But then it would also be interesting to see how F2 would perform in relation to the other boards (Hey, where are the F2s? :D). Hardly anyone knows about the Black Pearls ... that would be interesting for many of us as well. Not to mention the new white Oxess or the new plate and boards by Apex. But for one person it would be rather challenging to seriously test all these boards, not to mention the different setups, if the Vist is included ... changing the plate from one board to the next alone gets old pretty fast ... by the way, there are no Vist inserts on the Prior, right? And I think Jack explained it quite well ... he wants to compare Doneks, Priors and Coilers to a current World Cup board and Kessler is not a bad choice at all :D ...

Hey, didn´t you read my post ... On Lambert´s board the plate is setup so that it ends behind the back binding and there is a long part in front of the front binding. But on Anderson´s board the plate is longer behind the back binding than it is in front of the front binding. At least that´s the way the boards were setup on the WC at Kreischberg ... so it seems that there are different options for placement with different effects ... I also heard that Karl´s plate suits and supports his special style while the plate would be almost unrideable for Grabner ... can´t tell you more, but it seems that the plates can compensate or improve certain aspects of different riding styles.

I was wondering the same thing ... Karl´s plate should have provoked more interest ... and Fischnaller is also using this plate now ... I don´t think that the front part of the Apex is just for show ... they were talking about how they can customise their plate for the different riders and if you look at the setting of Anderson and Lambert you will find that they have a completely different setup. The position of the plate is totally different ... Karl´s plate and the Apex plate both seem to be fixed to the board near the edges and not the middle (4x4) ...

Thanks, BlueB! Nice write up ... This sounds really promising. "feels more like a 160" ... that´s exactly what I experience when stepping onto a Kessler (my 185 feels like a 165 when drifting and steering ...) ... so agile! A bx board is at the top of my wishlist at the moment, but I want to use it with softboots ... so I´m not sure about the waist width at the moment ... the 25,6cm of the production 168 BX sounds a bit narrow for me (boot size us 9) and getting a custom is a bit overkill, because I won´t be using it as much as my alpine equipment ...

I totally agree with you here ... Apex and Kessler are very similar in that way ...

@BlueB - after reading your comment, I went out today and tried to focus on what you asked. I was a little bit tired after spending 2 hours on a Kessler 185 + Vist + Ibex binding (7,5kg ... ;)), but I didn´t really feel much difference in how the two boards finish a turn. The difference is noticeable at the initiation (as I mentioned), but I guess that the radius from the waist to the tail is pretty similar on the two boards, so I couldn´t tell much difference. The "new" shapes seem to come off the edge easier if necessary, but if you want to "finish" a turn, you can :D ...