D-Sub Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 again, with the BTS system, and hopefully a bomber solution for Head boots...I would LOVE to ride only plates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Well, I'm far from an expert on softbooting (or hardbooting for that matter)...but in most sports that involve equipment, the goal of the human-to-hardware interface is to transmit as much of the human's energy as efficiently as possible to the hardware. The key word there being efficiently.Hockey players and figure skaters lace their skates up as tightly as possible so more energy is transmitted to the blade. Softboots just don't feel very efficient by comparison! Of course, I don't know what the top Olympic freestyle softbooters' gear feels like in comparison to the average skidder. And of course, the purpose of freestyle snowboarding isn't really efficiency and speed...but more acrobatic. Scott From my experiences, you are wrong about hockey skates.... better players tend to tie their skates looser at the top to let them be more manueverable, only beginners tie their skates super tight to compensate for weaker ankles and to give then an artifical sense of support and power.As for hardboots... It is great that you've discovered what you think best fits you personally and how it has helped you take your riding the the next level in the past year. However, I don't really see how you think you can suggest any type of generalization about who should be riding in hardboots or not. To do so I would think one would have to be an expert rider in BOTH and still ride both so as to be unbiased. Even then, those are only knowledgeable "opinions." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'm riding plates and hardboots for everything. It will take lighter, tuneable boots to make a dent in the softboot regime. Raichle's molds are a decade old or more, and the material is heavy. We need waterproof shells, esp. in the tongue area, lighter materials in the shell like A.T. boots have. Fin has done some good things this year with the BTS, the new toe/heel pads, the suspension kit. Deeluxe needs to step up and make the shells lighter for starters. Possibly interchangeable cuffs on a single shell system, for shorter/taller cuff needs, ie backcountry use etc. If we could see a boot that would weigh 3.5 lbs per boot with thermo liners, using Bomber heel/toe pads, and the BTS, I think more people would use them for the inherent other benefits, such as the proper flex they have for snowboarding, and the warmth for cold, high altitude uses. Just my ramblings here, but I think I've seen enough over the last 10+ years to have a feel for this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotts.Scheinman Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 They are just diffrent. and most of us including me like hard boots more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I just figured out what the problem is, Scott: When I put the bindings back on, I went ahead and set 'em up duck-footed, just to be an "official" softbooter. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotts.Scheinman Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 i have never gone duck footed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I just figured out what the problem is, Scott: You're right D-Sub...the duck-footed thing felt horrendous. I'm sure I'd like my soft gear better with at least 45F/40R, and I'll probably try it like that. But then again, I'm sort of thinking, "Why?" I like plates better! :) Lonerider, fair point about the hockey skates---I'm not an expert at those. :) And I don't think I ever suggested who should be riding what (but I'll go back and read my post again to be sure!), just suggested that I didn't think softboots transmitted energy to the board as efficiently as hardboots. But I'm certainly not trying to stop anyone from riding in softboots! Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoetrencher Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Retired my Sorrels (duct tape and all) in '89 with the arrival of my Kemper Apex. Never bought a pair of "soft boots" unless you consider switching from racing ski boots to 325's in '93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleb Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 hardboots defintly transmit more energy into the snow than soft boots but thats what they're ment for. there is a great deal of energy lost in the flex of the soft boot bindings and the boots themselves. For freestyle, you just don't need that much precisely targeted energy. I am new to the sport but have read dozens and dozens of articles surrounding the science of the sport. about doing jumps on plates, i'm guessing its just less forgiving to have a less than perfect landing. For softboots, the impact is absorbed into the equipment because it of its flex. For hardboots, the impact is taken into a stiff board, through the stiff boots, and gets absorbed by the person. Correct me if i'm wrong, please:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Lonerider, fair point about the hockey skates---I'm not an expert at those. :) And I don't think I ever suggested who should be riding what (but I'll go back and read my post again to be sure!), just suggested that I didn't think softboots transmitted energy to the board as efficiently as hardboots. But I'm certainly not trying to stop anyone from riding in softboots! Scott I don't believe that efficiency is a good judgement criteria. For one thing it often points to skis over snowboards - a skiier can tuck, turn, carve, jump, spin, stop and even stand still on a slope using less energy than a snowboarder. On top of that... efficient energy transmission goes both ways. Why is it then that hardbooters continually modify their setups to reduce energy transmission with super-cushy yellow e-rings, bomber suspension pads, bomber cushy boot soles, BTS kit, damp snowboards like Madd, Coiler, Prior... clearly efficiency of power transmission isn't the only factor.The other point was that I am cautioning intermediate riders like yourself who have had a snowboarding epiphany switching to hardboots to be so quick to judge softboots after going back for like a few days. Here are two points that I wanted to put forth to you when going back to your old softboots setup and trying to compare after riding it for a single day. 1. Your softboot gears was sub-optimal compared to your hardboot setup. You have a pair of $450 top of the line boots with themofit liners, a $500ish board, and $300ish bindings. For most people their softboot setup all-together (brand new) will barely cost more than one of those items. 2. You've forgotten how to ride a softboot setup properly. Through a combination of lack of practice, dependence on equipment "efficiency" you have difficult controlling yourself on a softboot setup. Be careful not to blame the equipment because you feel all sloppy the first day you get back. If you ride both a lot, this transition is quicker and easier. I'm just suggesting people try to take these things into perspective. I'm sure many people will still prefer hardboots... but these are things I experienced when I switch back and forth. Anyways, Like I said before... it's like complaining the pool is freezing cold after sitting in the hottub for an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Scott, I'll bet you had no idea what you were getting into when you started this thread.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I truly believe that it helps to switch back and forth from time to time just to feel that ankle movement and then try to emulate it in your hardboots. I'm not an expert on technique by any means... but my experience has been that the occasional day on softies helps my alpine riding. I'm not sure it's limited to the reasons Phil mentions... I think riding in a different stance every now and then is just good for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I think riding in a different stance every now and then is just good for me. Agreed. I also think that there are a lot of reasons that riding plates helps your softboot riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I also think that there are a lot of reasons that riding plates helps your softboot riding. Actually, that's why I originally tried hardboots... I wanted to cross-train for softie riding - little did I know.... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleb Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 isnt that what most pros do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 The occasional day on soft gear always serves to remind me why hard boots cost $400ish and good bindings cost close to $300: They're worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Scott,I'll bet you had no idea what you were getting into when you started this thread.:D no crap! sincerest apologies for my part, scott! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Hey, no big deal—healthy discussion and debate (with no hard feelings) is always a good thing! You make good points again Lonerider. Although I should have added that I had no trouble controlling the freestyle board and boots. If anything, I found it far more forgiving than my carving board—and I didn't feel guilty skidding! :D So my dislike of the softboots had nothing to do with feeling like I couldn't ride in them...I just didn't like their "squishiness!" :) I sincerely believe almost everyone in the world who practices some form of motion-based sport with equipment falls into one of two categories: a) people who love to twist, huck, jump, jive, and spin b) people who love controlled, sustained speed Some of you might say "I love both!" but I think if you really take a hard look at where your heart is, you'll find yourself leaning more one way than the other (though you may still certainly do both). I'm a controlled, sustained speed guy...which is why I love sportbikes and not dirtbikes...road bicycles and not mountain bicycles...slalom kayaks and not freestyle kayaks...etc. I'm making no value judgements at all—I respect both sides! But I do believe that if your heart lies in the controlled, sustained speed camp, then you definitely need to be on carving gear in this sport and not be wasting time in softboots! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 You missed a group. I like to twist, huck, jump, jive (?), and spin at a very high, controlled, sustained speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 1. Your softboot gears was sub-optimal compared to your hardboot setup. You have a pair of $450 top of the line boots with themofit liners, a $500ish board, and $300ish bindings. For most people their softboot setup all-together (brand new) will barely cost more than one of those items. The occasional day on soft gear always serves to remind me why hard boots cost $400ish and good bindings cost close to $300: Guys you're getting off-track, don't forget supply/demand rule. If they were selling as much carving decks as they sell f/s & f/r, prices would be about the same... But we're only about what, 2% of the total market? Thinking back it sucks, I've paid twice as much for the boots as I did for my whole soft setup.. But no going back for me, I felt into carving right from the beginning... damn it's easier for me to scrape on a caving deck than it was on the soft one... I've got my g/f into carving, but she has tough time switching after 7 years of FS slamming. Besides I've got her some Clicker boots, so last time she took her old soft setup on the hil (after strugling on a carving deck since the beginning of the season)... Funny thing, she forgot how to slide and was carving all way down... Bloody heel, for the first time I saw somebody folding the nose on a 150cm deck! I guess I was successfull in converting her... She was anxious to get back on the Factory Prime... And complaining about quads being tired... "Dear, you have no idea what tired means yet...." :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pnut Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 i ride both, probally a 70% hardboot and 30% soft. While I enjoy carving better in hardboots it's always a welcome change to lay some turns on the soft set up also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 You make good points again Lonerider. Although I should have added that I had no trouble controlling the freestyle board and boots. If anything, I found it far more forgiving than my carving board—and I didn't feel guilty skidding! :D So my dislike of the softboots had nothing to do with feeling like I couldn't ride in them...I just didn't like their "squishiness!" :) I sincerely believe almost everyone in the world who practices some form of motion-based sport with equipment falls into one of two categories: a) people who love to twist, huck, jump, jive, and spin b) people who love controlled, sustained speed Fair enough, I definitely agree that people can prefer one type of boot over the over and softboots are... well soft and hardboots are stiff. I agree with the previous post that if hardboot technology were significantly modernized, the two styles of boots would blend together.Controlled sustained speed can means different things to different people... I agree with Phil that you categories aren't quite complete... it's very difficult for anyone to properly define and categorize all the "styles" of snowboarding, let alone with only two categories. Especially when you have a tendencies to use your personal experience as a the boundary - making one group to be "people like me" and the other to be "everyone else" and then saying everyone is either more in Group A or in Group B... what about Group W? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Guys you're getting off-track, don't forget supply/demand rule. If they were selling as much carving decks as they sell f/s & f/r, prices would be about the same... But we're only about what, 2% of the total market? Thinking back it sucks, I've paid twice as much for the boots as I did for my whole soft setup.. But no going back for me, I felt into carving right from the beginning... damn it's easier for me to scrape on a caving deck than it was on the soft one... That might be true of boards... higher volumes should definitely bring down prices although my thought would that many of the the mass-produced carving boards would be of lower quality/materials. I mean most carving boards are hand-made... that's going to cost you no matter how many they make them, but I'll give you that point.But what about boots? Ski boots are similar in construction (from my understanding alpine boots use modified molds... which haven't been changed in a decade, but that's another story) and they still cost a lot more despite have huge volumes. You can't be a hardbooter without a hardboot and they retail at relatively high prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Ski boots are similar in construction (from my understanding alpine boots use modified molds... which haven't been changed in a decade, but that's another story) and they still cost a lot more despite have huge volumes. Not true. I can go into SportChek (Canadian discount sport goods chain) and buy low-end ski boots for $CDN150. High end boots are expensive (pushing $1000 for top-end Langes now) but there's a whole range available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Not true. I can go into SportChek (Canadian discount sport goods chain) and buy low-end ski boots for $CDN150. High end boots are expensive (pushing $1000 for top-end Langes now) but there's a whole range available. Ok. So what you are saying is that alpine boots were be mass-produced, invariably there would be a whole range of boots of different quality levels and prices points... where as for alpine it jumps from the $150USD 413 to the $400USD Lemans in one shot.But you just gave the max/min... what's the median? So what's the price for a decent pair of ski boots, from my friends it still seems like in the $400USD range... where as a decent pair (mid-range) of snowboard boots goes for $150USD. Does your experiences match that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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