Tech Article: Cant and Lift

[Jack M]

This was an old article of mine at SOL/TWS. I've brought it here and updated it. If you've been wondering about Cant and Lift, or have been hesitant to fiddle with your bindings, hopefully this article will shed some light on the subject for you. Also the article discusses outward cant. Hope you enjoy it!

http://bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm

[D-Sub]

jack...I still dont quite get the statement regarding knees together. you insist that this somehow turns them into "one unit" preventing either knee from flexing independently from the other.

this makes no sense to me at all. my knees often end up together, and my suspension still works just fine, in fact Im usually conscious of the way they can slide around, apart, back together, all independently.

its not like theyre tied together with a powerstrap?

[Jon Dahl]

Look at the old movie, tweaked and twisted. Watch Craig Kelly riding in it, that's what he means. Your knees can end up together, some, but thats not where you start.

[D-Sub]

but...using craig kelly as an example of what not to do doesnt make much sense. that guy RULED it.

the opposite extreme...the new cowboy stance that I see photos of...looks just STUPID to me

[Jack M]

Sure, your suspension still works - you can still bend your knees of course - but you aren't nearly as <i>stable</i> with your knees jammed together.

Does this look stupid?

http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_images/v.jpg

[D-Sub]

well...when Kelly was brought up as an example of one extreme, I was thinkin of another extreme...modern freestylers with 26" stances and 10* both directions...

THAT looks stupid. your stance doesnt look anything like that and nor does it look stupid

but having your knees together doesnt mean theyre "locked"

if someone feels comortable like that, and can handle their terrain of choice, theyre fine

this is gonna end up tangential now, so Im just gonna STFU.

cantinue on, just ignore me ;)

[Mike T]

Great article. I haven't tried outward cant yet but I did try removing the inward cant on the back foot. As it is, I am way stronger toeside... would outward cant in front help me heelside? Or maybe even outward cant in back - give me more room to drive the back knee inwards and exert more force on heelside??? I still find I can't predict what happens when I mess with canting...

[D-Sub]

YES, good article...I shoulda said that FIRST.

[Jack M]

well...when Kelly was brought up as an example of one extreme, I was thinkin of another extreme...modern freestylers with 26" stances and 10* both directions...

THAT looks stupid.

Agreed.

but having your knees together doesnt mean theyre "locked"

I haven't checked my other articles, but I don't believe I've said that. It's just that when you ride with your knees purposefully stuck together (for style, or because you think it feels good) the fact is that you've got a way smaller triangle of support (front leg, rear leg, snowboard) that also has a reduced range of motion.

if someone feels comortable like that, and can handle their terrain of choice, theyre fine

Actually this is one rare case where there is a distinct right and wrong. That person will enjoy themselves even more with their knees apart. Unless they are naturally very knock-kneed. You don't see skiers skiing with their legs pressed together like <a href="http://www.viamagazine.com/images/articles/stein00_1.jpg">Stein Eriksen</a> anymore either, for the same reasons.

would outward cant in front help me heelside?

Quite possibly. Try it. I personally don't like it.

Or maybe even outward cant in back - give me more room to drive the back knee inwards and exert more force on heelside???

Again, quite possibly, try it. I like outward cant on the back foot for the effects it creates on toeside. It moves your knee to the inside of the turn where it is more <i>under</i> you. I feel more stable and better balanced that way.

[mnovak]

Good article -- yeah, I feel more restricted when I jam my knees together and better when I try to keep them separated.

You mention being knock-kneed as a condition suitable for inward cant on the rear foot. I ride with toe lift front and inward cant in the rear and find that most comfortable after playing with various combos. I want to get more separation of the knees and am thinking about going flat on the rear -- might this create a lot of stress on my knee because of the knock-kneed condition? I am concerned because I have problem knees and don't want to aggravate them if I can avoid it. I know -- try it and see what happens!

[Jon Dahl]

If you look at the old school C. k. and newer stuff, you see his riding evolved from that to a more natural stance. He may have ruled it, but he grew too. I do have one major regret, having never met him, and living in the same valley he grew up in. His dad has a business in town here. Probably still has a storage unit full of his old gear too, at least he did when my bud worked for him.

[D-Sub]

gotcha, john

I havent seen any snowboard vids in a LONG time.

Jack, thanks for the explanation. I dont even remember if I ride "knock kneed" necessarily but when Im on snow again I will try to consciously sort it out and see what happens

I need to learn how to "sink" into the board first. even when I think Im "compact" Im still standing damn near fully upright it seems.

[frunobulax]

First of all, hi everybody, I believe it's my first post in this forum.

What I have to say is I fully agree with Jack that from a certain skill level on locking your knees together will have a bad effect on your riding esp. concerning shock absorption and reacting to surface changes

BUT

I made the experience that every time I taught basic carving lessons to new carvers I could have told them everything about rotating the upper body, felling compact, shifting the weight and so on but the biggest improvements (esp. with heelside turns) were made when I simply told them "Get those knees together!".

And heellift would certainly help with that.

And that's how I learned it myself, locked knees until I eliminated skidding on the heelside, and then as I became better I gradually "forgot" about this knees thing because it wasn't necessary any more, and at the end I threw away the cant/heellift.

Hmmm, outward cant, interesting idea...

[D-Sub]

welcome to bomber

[stevo]

I agree with Jack's excellent article(s) and I have been experimenting with the outward cant...I thought if it didn't feel right I could always go back to my original settings but I wanted to give it an honest try. After taking a lesson with Erik Beckman at Sugarloaf (can you say wealth of information) I am using outward cant on BOTH the front and back bindings. After the first two days of riding with it I was much smoother and the next day I wasn't sore at all in my usual spots. It really seemed to stack my bones better, relieved muscle tension in my neutral stance, freed up my ankles for better turn initiation, and I had better suspension. Like Erik says " if you want to ride scrunched up into a wad, and leave the hill exhausted at 11am, go ahead and cant your bindings inward". Go see Erik he is a guru!

[~tb]

Great article. I haven't tried outward cant yet but I did try removing the inward cant on the back foot. As it is, I am way stronger toeside... would outward cant in front help me heelside? Or maybe even outward cant in back - give me more room to drive the back knee inwards and exert more force on heelside??? I still find I can't predict what happens when I mess with canting...

Mike,

I have been riding with outward cant on my back foot for years now on my cateks. a lot of the bomber crowd thought I was huffing glue at the time, but now with the TD2. . . they seem to be diggin' it. My philosiphy is as follows.

1) if my toeside turn initiation feels weaker than my heelside turn initiation, I cant my front foot towards the heel (strong) side. This seems to make my toe side turn initiation MUCH stronger without taking much away from my heelside turn initiation.

2) if my heelside turn initiation feels weaker than my toeside, I cant my front foot towards the toe (strong) side. This seems to make my heelside turn initiation MUCH stronger without taking much away from my toeside turn initiation.

3) if my toeside turn feels weaker than my heelside through the middle of the carve, I cant my back foot towards my heel (strong) side. This seems to make my toeside turn and finish MUCH stronger and stable without taking much away from my heelside turn.

4) finally (you probably guessed it) if my heelside turn feels weaker than my toeside through the middle of the carve, I cant my back foot towards my toe (strong) side. You guessed it, this seems to make my heelside turn and finish MUCH stronger and stable without taking much away from my toeside turn.

I guess the softboot analogy I would draw would be the Gas Pedal Toe wedges. If your toeside felt weak, one would place wedges under the toes of the boot to increase one's ability to pressure that edge. Think of adjusting the cant as adding a wedge to the weak side to enable you to better pressure the edge.

The truly wierd thing is that I find that this changes from day to day for many reasons. The balance between my toe and heel side seems to change dependant on temperature, how stiff or loose different muscles in my body are, the snow conditions (soft, hard, ICE, chalk), how much I ate for breakfast, the moon's alignment with jupiter, the current mentality of my wife, who im riding with and whats going on between my ears. The fact that these shift from day to day is the primary reason why I personally currently ride cateks. If something doesnt feel right, I take a gondola ride up, make a very small tweak to push the cant in or out (based on the above 4 cases) and voila! all better.

Thoughts, opinoins, rebuttals?

~tb

[frunobulax]

Could it be possible that the amount of inward/outward cant needed for a comfy/aggressive riding position depends also very much on the board you ride, esp concerning stiffness and flex pattern?

e.g. on a long GS board with a stiff middle section you would need inward cant whereas on a turny freecarver with a more constant flex curve the middle section of the board would bend so much under pressure that outward cant is needed.

[Sean]

... and at the end I threw away the cant/heellift.

Allrighty now...

Stirring the pot again here, but just for giggles, have you gear fiddlers out there considered doing like frunoblax and trying a non-lifted, non-canted setup? You will probably have to tighten your stance up a bit, but you might be pleasantly surprised. Seems like we are again tempted to split the atom on this when perhaps we should ultimately be seeking a neutral centered stance tailored to the way we are built. For some knock kneed or bow legged riders this may be inward/outward cants. For other riders this may be a bit of pure heel lift (BTW, this is how I usually start out new riders), but for many this may be plain old flat bindings- kinda like the way we stand when we do nearly every other sport.

I will apologize in advance for the hit & run posting. Won't be able to reply for a bit as I am headed up to B.C. this morning but I'm sure someone out there might want to add to this discussion.

Everyone have their slide rules out?

Good.

Ready, set, go!

[ncermak]

Actually this is one rare case where there is a distinct right and wrong. That person will enjoy themselves even more with their knees apart. Unless they are naturally very knock-kneed. You don't see skiers skiing with their legs pressed together like <a href="http://www.viamagazine.com/images/articles/stein00_1.jpg">Stein Eriksen</a> anymore either, for the same reasons.

I'm going to argue that has more to do with equipment. Shaped skis grab more, and will tend to drift more noticeably when run flat. you have to keep them both on edge or you will cross up. Yes, It creates a more stable pltform too. But also look at bump skiers. we all know who looks best in the moguls, and its not the kid with the wide stance wind up back on his heels...In the bumps, the knees need to act as a single unit to properly aborb. snowboarders require the independant knee action because the front and rear foot are in different point of the turn...

[frunobulax]

If something doesnt feel right, I take a gondola ride up, make a very small tweak to push the cant in or out (based on the above 4 cases) and voila! all better.

~tb

Is that true? On a catek binding you can change the cant within seconds? Impressive..

[Jack M]

Allrighty now...

Stirring the pot again here, but just for giggles, have you gear fiddlers out there considered doing like frunoblax and trying a non-lifted, non-canted setup?

Yes. I can't stand having both my legs tilted forwards by the forward lean built into the boots. It is a really unnatural position for me - one that puts my lower body in a constant state of stress. With toe/heel lift I can relax and be loose.

Did you have a chance to read the article Sean? I briefly discuss riding flat in the article.

[Mike T]

Stirring the pot again here, but just for giggles, have you gear fiddlers out there considered doing like frunoblax and trying a non-lifted, non-canted setup? You will probably have to tighten your stance up a bit, but you might be pleasantly surprised.

I have my SL board set up that way and it works great, keeps my stance narrow which is rather necessary on a 157.

I've tried it on even my Axis and I got sore quickly, it made me work harder. I find the toe/heel lift + wider stance more efficient. Maybe I'll try it again next season - my "bike vs car" preveneted me from lifting for much of the offseason, so I am relaying on more technqiue and less strength this season. Which so far is a good thing.

[Mike T]

I have been riding with outward cant on my back foot for years now on my cateks. a lot of the bomber crowd thought I was huffing glue at the time, but now with the TD2. . . they seem to be diggin' it. My philosiphy is as follows.

-snip-

Thoughts, opinoins, rebuttals?

Thanks Todd - since I am stronger toeside all-around, I will tweak my settings next time I go out. Currently I've got virtually straight-up toe lift on the front and mostly lift, a little inward cant on back. I'll add a very small bit inward cant on the front and switch the inward to outward cant on the back.

[~tb]

Is that true? On a catek binding you can change the cant within seconds? Impressive..

I will go on record of saying that I can change one bindings cant or lift by about .5 degrees in approximately 30 seconds (assuming I already have the wrench out of my pocket).

[~tb]

Allrighty now...

Stirring the pot again here, but just for giggles, have you gear fiddlers out there considered doing like frunoblax and trying a non-lifted, non-canted setup? You will probably have to tighten your stance up a bit, but you might be pleasantly surprised. Seems like we are again tempted to split the atom on this when perhaps we should ultimately be seeking a neutral centered stance tailored to the way we are built. For some knock kneed or bow legged riders this may be inward/outward cants. For other riders this may be a bit of pure heel lift (BTW, this is how I usually start out new riders), but for many this may be plain old flat bindings- kinda like the way we stand when we do nearly every other sport.

I will apologize in advance for the hit & run posting. Won't be able to reply for a bit as I am headed up to B.C. this morning but I'm sure someone out there might want to add to this discussion.

Everyone have their slide rules out?

Good.

Ready, set, go!

I tried completely flat, and close to flat last year on my cateks, as well as on a pair of phiokka's. Same experience as jack, did not like it at all.