What can you do in softies that you can not do on plates?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think when the dust clears we'd all agree that it's a matter of appropriate tool for the job, and that while it's possible to ride a rail switch with a flat tail and 60 degree angles it ain't easy.

Having said that, what I don't understand is why people ride softies when going big and fast is the job. Billy, you ride both - why would you tackle a steep face in softies as opposed to hard boots?

[D-Sub]

"Your true commetment to the sport has been very recent in this coumunity."

Bordy...thats not true either...Ive always longed for the days I could get out my PJ...and then would try to convert my friends

things is, most of my life Ive lived in the flats...had to, basically...school...family...work...etc...

but...youre right...my exposure has been limited. In fact, until I found bomber I thought I was an atavism! a throwback!

but...what I dont understand is...it seems like we're arguing the same thing:

different tools for different purposes.

you said yourself that softboots were better for many things...and...yes, I know this has been done to death...so oh hell I guess just drop it

i still want to see stills and footage of dudes in plates rocking technical airs and stuff!

[Bordy]

Billy, you ride both - why would you tackle a steep face in softies as opposed to hard boots?

Personal feel. At one point I rode hard boots on all the big mountain stuff I rode. But Over time I wanted a different feel. Riding is very important to me. I enjoy scary big MT lines And know that I have all the control I need in the Soft setup I am on. I thought it was easier to hang on in hardboots but in soft boots I have to be in control. My level of riding really got good when I started riding soft boots again. I think I get more control over the board. and it is to easy to over power a board with the right flex for steep big MT riding. Plus in good snow It easier to control the plane rate of your board with ankle imput. and fun to slash and do burt surf style turns. I also think it is easier to land in soft boots. Although its easier to hip check in hard boots becasue you can lever your way out of the hole.

Jack. The boots look like Burton Comp first year they went white with a leather lace upper. (Light purple? ) Not the white back hill boot with the zip string upper.

[Guest jschal01]

"...why would you tackle a steep face in softies as opposed to hard boots?" I don't have anywhere near Bordy's base of experience, but for steeps with good snow the compression and ability to control your speed without a steep board angle or bottom-heavy turn are two good reasons to be in softboots. For truly steep and really icy, but reasonably uniform in surface, slopes, one answer is don't ride them in this condition, but a reasonable number of people who ride those still do use plastic AT boots, both for better edge control and for ease of frontpointing in crampons.

So it really is horses for courses.

[Bordy]

"

but...youre right...my exposure has been limited. In fact, until I found bomber I thought I was an atavism! a throwback!

That what I mean by New; Your New here to this Community(BOL)

No one is agrueing with you I just wanted to point out the fact that you were being unfare with your I am not buying it and intill I see it attidude that was clearly displayed .

i still want to see stills and footage of dudes in plates rocking technical airs and stuff!

Its coming. We are commited to video this year and think of last years video and the new video coming out soon as practice to get ready for the next step. We are confident no one in this community will be uneducated when we are done.

[Phil]

O.K. Let's back the truck up.

This thread was a response to this:

Originally posted by Nic:

"My friend your wish will come true. Lets just say i am way ahead of you on it. I very much agree with you. Unlike most people who think hard boots are for carving need to open there eyes. I use to be a jibber back when it was fun in the early 90's. I can still do most of the tricks on my slalom.

In the up comming days you will have a chance to see it. :D :)

People will finaly see what is really possible on hardboots."

My response was:

"I think that most people on the board here realize that you can do anything in hardboots that you can in soft. It is the general public that does not know that."

I was quickly disagreed with, so I started this thread so I would not highjack the other.

This was not a thread to start troll wars or for bragging. It was for discussion on the matter.

Billy says that he did 1080's on plates. I think that I can assume that he does not spin further than that on softies. He also said that it is better on softies. I agree. He demonstrated that it can be done though.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Phil]

Speed control can be done in hardboots and is better done without bottom heavy turns, but I am not getting into that and I am not starting another thread.:D

[Bordy]

Most of the thread I take the time to kick in on get like this.

This one is a bit personal because I do run a hardboot web site and our goal is to educate everyone.

I hope Feddy(NIC) has some awsome stuff going on as well.

Just because a thread goes a bit of course is never a bad thing.

Its just a chat between hardboot lovers.

But I have to beat feet and go to the real job.

I have been editing a powder board reveiw so have been in frount of the computer a bunch the past few days and here on bomber alot,

Its always fun to play at fins house.

D-sub Its very easy to read into any thing I'm sorry you got the wrong vibe. Just speaking my mind.

I'll check this thread later!

Different tools for different Fools.

[Phil]

Sorry I'm a post whore in my own thread (32 total posts in an hour!).

I am going to contradict myself again.

As I have been sitting here thinking about it, I cannot always do flatland air 360's.

When I teach my beginner freestylers how to spin, I never have them spin off of a jump until they can jump a 3 on flatland. I can always do this on softies, but there are days when I just don't have it in me on plates. I still teach it, but some days I cannot demonstrate it.

I am still trying to think of other things that I can do on one and not the other.

I don't mind contradicting myself.

[Phil]

Most of the thread I take the time to kick in on get like this.

This one is a bit personal because I do run a hardboot web site and our goal is to educate everyone.....

Hey, I am enjoying this - that is why I started the thread. I just felt the need to clarify why I did so. I agree with educating the public - I try to do it every day that I ride - on a local level.

I have enjoyed your part in this thread - don't sweat it - keep talking.

-Phil-

[lonerider]

When I teach my beginner freestylers how to spin, I never have them spin off of a jump until they can jump a 3 on flatland. I can always do this on softies, but there are days when I just don't have it in me on plates.

Moving right? When I do flatland I tend to cheat and rotate a bit before takeoff and after landing. Do you teach them how to ollie higher to get a trye 360 spin?

[Phil]

Moving right? When I do flatland I tend to cheat and rotate a bit before takeoff and after landing. Do you teach them how to ollie higher to get a trye 360 spin?

Actually, we do it in place first, but then we do it moving. I usually start with 180's, but I did not want to back up that far for this discussion.

Generally I do not teach them to ollie higher to get the spin. I don't teach them to ollie for a spin when going off of a kicker, so I do not incorporate it on flats either.

The idea is to get to the point where you do not need early or late rotation.

Man, now you've made me realize where I was wrong again - I can spin 540's standing still on the flats in softies but only 360 on plates.

[D-Sub]

bordy...no hard feelings, bro. you know I respect you. phil(s) too!

[kjl]

In general it is harder for me to do very quick maneuvers in hardboots than softboots.

This manifests in at least the following cases:

• Quick counterrotation jump turns are harder in hardboots.
  
• Moving my weight fore and aft is harder in hardboots because it necessitates bending the big joint at the hips/waist, while in softboots it only requires a quick lateral lean in the ankles.
  
• Controlling skids is harder in hardboots because, again, edge angle control comes from knees/hips/waist instead of quick ankle movements.
  

This results in:

• Because moving weight fore/aft and skid control is difficult, "survival riding" on steeps or chutes or death moguls is more difficult on hardboots for me.
  
• Because moving weight fore/aft is difficult, riding powder is less graceful, and less easy.
  
• Riding over as opposed to through uneven terrain is harder because the ankles don't flex as much.
  

Just my 2c.

[D-Sub]

I just realized that the contrapositive of this thread is why I ride hardboots sometimes and softboots others:

the ability to rail really long, hard turns. it makes groomers a blast!

(and yes, I know, some people can carve almost as well in softboots)

[mirror70]

What can I do in softboots that I can't in hardboots?

Well, two things come to mind immediately:

1) Pick up girls

2) Act like I'm heterosexual

:D

[sic t 2]

sit on a mogul without twisting your knee out of socket.

Sic

[carvedog]

No really I have been enjoying this thread quite a bit. But everyone is wrong. :o All right, all right. No one thing that seems to be assumed in some of the posts is that hard boots equals forward angles. Yes my Burner is at 67/65 with size 28.5 boots.But I ride at around 30 on my Canyon and it is very much an ankle flex type thing, not a hip turn. After riding switch on Burner or Prime the Canyon feels like I am at 5 or 10.

On the softer boards I actually run rental plates with the screw adjustment as they are quite soft and flexy in the powder. Down to one pair now.

I gave up on soft boots after my go rounds with the clicker system and the Burton stepins. Havn't rode soft in 5 years maybe and I am so much happier now.

So the point of this rambling post is to say don't assume stance angle from choice of boot. No I don't ride duck.

But I drive all the time in my Fires.

Jerry

[willywhit]

Eddie, great old shot of Sanders. I love this one of Jeff Greenwood. I've seen Mark Fawcett dominate a BX course in hardboots. Isn't this kind of a silly debate tho ? Personally, I love blasting through the bumps in hardboots on a twintip right behind one of my ski buddies right under the chair.People bug out.You can rip the bumps in softies too but it just seems much more painful when those boots aren't hardshells and aren't sucking up all the bang bang ...BANG! Jack, great shot of you too, man.That's some serious old school tweaker air !

[Phil]

In general it is harder for me to do very quick maneuvers in hardboots than softboots.

This manifests in at least the following cases:

• Quick counterrotation jump turns are harder in hardboots.
  
• Moving my weight fore and aft is harder in hardboots because it necessitates bending the big joint at the hips/waist, while in softboots it only requires a quick lateral lean in the ankles.
  
• Controlling skids is harder in hardboots because, again, edge angle control comes from knees/hips/waist instead of quick ankle movements.
  

This results in:

• Because moving weight fore/aft and skid control is difficult, "survival riding" on steeps or chutes or death moguls is more difficult on hardboots for me.
  
• Because moving weight fore/aft is difficult, riding powder is less graceful, and less easy.
  
• Riding over as opposed to through uneven terrain is harder because the ankles don't flex as much.
  

Just my 2c.

KJL,

I would challenge you to work more on doing all of these things with your ankles. From my experience, the average hardbooter's biggest downfall is thinking that movements start in joints other than the ankles. It is so easy to do in softies so most people assume that the stiff feel of hardboots takes away ankle movements so that movements must come from somewhere else. Just a thought to start your season. :)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - ankles, ankles, ankles!:D (just practicing for my hardboot lessons)

[lonerider]

Generally I do not teach them to ollie higher to get the spin. I don't teach them to ollie for a spin when going off of a kicker, so I do not incorporate it on flats either.

So you are teaching them to get a lot of power in their rotations like corking up and twisting hard?

[philfell]

My thinking is that each individual, given time on both, can achieve the same skills on both.

So if you can throw a FS 5 on your softies, I believe that you can also do it on plates. If you can only do straight airs on softies, then I believe that you can do straight airs on plates etc.

I whole-heartedly disagree with this statement. At a certain level it's true, but the higher you get the more it becomes untrue.

An example, a few years ago a the U.S. National Championships Seth Wescott decided to race in the PGS on his SBX set-up. Anyone who has ever watched Seth ride knows he is truely a world class rider (currently the world SBX champ.) He also grew up doing some races in the Green Mt. Series on hardboots. I don't think he finished in the top 30 in that race. It wasn't due to lack on riding ability, it was all due to set-up he was in soft boots. He couldn't ride at the same level in softies and some people of lesser ability in hardboots.

When the Jeep King of the Mt. Series was first starting a few seasons ago, some really talented SBX racers decided to try to qualify for these. They got smoked by people in hardboots. Why? The courses are suited more for hardboots.

If you could do the same things in softboots that you could in hardboots, you would never see Jasey race some SBX's in softies and PGS in hardboots. He would do it all with the same set-up.

The fact is you can't ride at the limits of freestyle in hardboots and you can't ride at the limits of racing in softies.

True you can ride pipe, pow, rails, ect. in hardboots. Yes you can lay out some sweet turns on softies. However each have their own pros and cons and you shouldn't think that they are interchangeable, because they are not.

[Guest Randy S.]

Hey Jack. Those look like old Sorel Snowbears. No?

[Phil]

I whole-heartedly disagree with this statement. At a certain level it's true, but the higher you get the more it becomes untrue.

An example, a few years ago a the U.S. National Championships Seth Wescott decided to race in the PGS on his SBX set-up. Anyone who has ever watched Seth ride knows he is truely a world class rider (currently the world SBX champ.) He also grew up doing some races in the Green Mt. Series on hardboots. I don't think he finished in the top 30 in that race. It wasn't due to lack on riding ability, it was all due to set-up he was in soft boots. He couldn't ride at the same level in softies and some people of lesser ability in hardboots.

When the Jeep King of the Mt. Series was first starting a few seasons ago, some really talented SBX racers decided to try to qualify for these. They got smoked by people in hardboots. Why? The courses are suited more for hardboots.

If you could do the same things in softboots that you could in hardboots, you would never see Jasey race some SBX's in softies and PGS in hardboots. He would do it all with the same set-up.

The fact is you can't ride at the limits of freestyle in hardboots and you can't ride at the limits of racing in softies.

True you can ride pipe, pow, rails, ect. in hardboots. Yes you can lay out some sweet turns on softies. However each have their own pros and cons and you shouldn't think that they are interchangeable, because they are not.

I don't know that you are disagreeing with what I meant, but it appears that you are disagreeing with how you interpreted it.

Could Seth Wescott ride the course well? Of course. He just could not win on that board. And the question goes for the rest as well. I would never advocate competing on the wrong equipment.

However, if I am out on my race board, I will not turn down a rail or the chance to throw some spins or tweaked out airs in the park or pipe. That does not mean that I am entering the rail jam on my race board though.

This goes back to my original point that an individual given the same time on both can achieve the same skills on both (which I have already contradicted). That does not mean achieve the same skills on both in competition against others who are on more suitable gear.

I don't really think that competition has anything to do with the subject.

I appreciate your point Phil, but that was not really what I was talking about.

[D-Sub]

Hey Jack. Those look like old Sorel Snowbears. No?

I was thinking sorels, too, but didnt kemper make some white boots also?