If you Could........

[NateW]

The only advantage I see to softboots is being able to walk more comfortable. For that I have sneakers.

For everything else, I have an easier time in hard boots. Halfpipe took some getting used to, but I'm getting more air in hard boots than I was in softies (admittedly, that's not saying a whole lot) and I have no interest in riding softies there either.

And like Phil said, I was never comfy in soft boots. Quite the opposite. By the time I felt like I had a good solid connection to the board, my feet were killing me. Hard boots are way more comfortable.

Oh wait, there's one more thing hard boots ain't so good at: tweaking airs. Nose grabs especially suck. It's a small price to pay.

[Guest woodman]

if you think hard-booters and carving are dead or near extinction! If you want to see the sport being promoted and thriving you need to spend a weekend on my mountain. We've got quite a following here and almost every weekend a race being held with hard-booters from 12-40+ competing. I've posted here before on the old site that I believe per-capita we've got more hard-booters than most of the other members mountains I've heard of on this site. I'm teaching my 8 year old to do it, and he's into his second season this year. He'll be riding a Burton 135cm FP with step-ins and as soon as his feet grow a little more I'll throw down for some of the Raichle 224's they've got here at Bomber so his Alpine set-up will be complete. I'm into my 3rd season and am trying to promote/convert as many people as I can too at least give the sport a try especially if I see them going "surf style" down the hill. One of the guys on our local ski patrol even loans out his alpine gear so that people can try it at no cost, save the lift ticket, to them. Our local Alpine guru (Big D)down at one of our board shops is currently looking into a deal with Donek and was trying to get Coiler involved, but he's so back logged he just laughed when ask about providing boards for him to sell in his shop. Maybe hard-booting is fading out where you ride at, but brother it's on it's way up in my town. I'm proud to ride Alpine gear and plan on becoming a one man/one boy ambassador for the sport.

Good carving,

Paul

[Hans]

Words can't tell, pictures do. Well said enough now, you can't do this turn/carve after carve with a soft set up without loosing control and not to talk about the stability of this set up.

[Guest Doug M]

Great pictures ,But you are wrong.You just hav'nt seen it yet

Doug M

[Hans]

Okay, Doug

You make me curious. Let's see some pictures or avimovie of extremecarving with a soft setup on an extremecarve board. Can't wait to see them.

Myself I ride a soft setup on a longboard with an alpine layout and characteristics, but I can't lay down carves with this board like I do with a carveboard and hardboots.

I can ride my longboard as fast as a carveboard/alpineboard can do. But I prefer my SWOARD with hardboots and this season I am gonna try my just yesterday arrived TD2's stepin to lay down some ECcarves.

Greets, Hans.

[NateW]

How do you get rid of the toe/heel overhang when carving with softies?

Wide board + short feet?

High stance angles?

(High by softboot standards... like 20+)

[eddie]

One good lesson that I learned from my rock climbing instructor was shut up and climb. Instead of pondering silly "what if" questions, why don't we just all do what we enjoy to do- CARVE. Go out and enjoy life.

[Bordy]

Most boys and girls that rip on hard boots can make the change to soft boots and still rail turns! I have lots off softy set ups that I can still lay out turns with the same style as on hard boots but not with the same power.

Its all about the tool, Maciek makes a poiont about cars. same as motorcyles a dirt bike vs street bike. With the right slicks and suspension you can still rail a dirt bike! With the right angles and gear you can rail a softy set up! But the control is not the same.

This are not my rules they are the laws of physics!

Last point, As a aging racer one of the greatest joys was coming up the chair of the practice hill,( at any race event) looking at all the trenches in the snow and being so stoked. The stoke of seeing trenches has faded some since then. The reason why is simple, now they are commen place. One ride up my local hill and I see thousands of trenches from skiiers and riders. Many of them in there fist few years on the hill! Shaped skiis are the tools that gave millions of skiers the edge they needed to carve better! Alpine snowboards do the same for our sport. Many of the posters here may have never learned to carve, was it not for their alpine set up! However just like there has been killer skiiers railing turns on strait long skiis since the early 70's. There will be guys on soft boots digging deeper trenches on softys then other hard boot riders.

I live and ride were there are lots of current and ex pro, boys and girls. the level of riding here blows away most of the "little hill level" that most of you are used to. I am not saying your local hill does not have hot riders etc. I am saying that major resort draws heavey hitters I see the heavey hitters ride and some of these kids can make a softy setup turn however they choose! Then huck and spin like a diver, thats the level or riding now. This week while the Grand Prix was here I spent time visisting with some old friends. This lead me into the park with lots of the super pipe boys and girls. I was riding with all the new school kids "Shaun White and crew" They all believe turning is the most important part of riding Plan and simple. The days of the skided turn at the pro level have past. Try to hold an edge in a icee super pipe!

The carved turn is now commen in all sliding sports. Here at PC it is the norm. We hard booters are no longer the masters of the carve we once were! Our turn has been past down to the next generation they have taken the carve and used it to improve the sport. As a hardboot pioneer I'm stoked the skills and turn I helped master and at first stuggled to teach, has been taught to so many that it's now the norm!

Go carve! Go carve however you want!

If you take the time to share the turn with any one, then you are a carving ambassador.

If you take the time to bitch about someone elses carving or gear! You are a carving biggot.

Pick one and stay with it.

Are you a Pro carve(er)?

Or are you a Pro Biggot?

[Jack M]

Originally posted by eddie

One good lesson that I learned from my rock climbing instructor was shut up and climb. Instead of pondering silly "what if" questions, why don't we just all do what we enjoy to do- CARVE. Go out and enjoy life.

You know, it's only a matter of time in each thread, if it gets heated enough (read: interesting), that someone says "just go out and riiiide, maaan".

This is the mating call of terminal intermediates.

If you just want to surf the mountain and take in the good vibe, great, that is way cool. But some of us actually <i>enjoy</i> debating technique. This is what advances the school of carving theory, and results in the equipment that allows you to surf the mountain better.

-Jack

[Steve Dold]

At least no one has invoked Godwin's Law yet :^)

Doug, for me it's probably "no", because I like the precision feel of hard boots and plates. Just as there are always going to be those who prefer a manual transmission, there will always be those who prefer the 100% direct connection. Any soft boot that approaches that stiffness isn't really a "soft" boot (to me) anyway, it's a hard boot made with fabric and rubber and got knows what all kludge reinforcements.

[Guest Doug M]

Interesting answers from alot of people.Remember The question I asked was ,"If you could".Who cares what the equipment is.Hard boot/soft boot...Too many of you replied no,as If wearing hardboots is some sort of badge of courage or something.Carving is carving regardless of the equipment.Would,nt it be great if you could have equipment that could carve turns down to your hip(without foot pain) and still skid around on technical terrain.It can be done with the combination of equipment and technique..No one piece of equipment will do all things to the highest level.But it's nice to see the industry putting out better boards, boots and bindings that can do 90% of all at a high level.I for one am excited about this.I think the future of "good technique" and carving looks good because of the new soft equipment coming out.

If I posted on a freestyle site If you could freestyle on hard boots better then you could on soft boots with added control on hard pack....I have a feeling some of the answers might be very similar to what I just read.....except with your an FFFing idiot thrown in :D

Doug M

[Steve Dold]

A lot of the fun for me is being different. I don't know why, but I think a lot of people are that way. It's why people buy Mini Coopers, for example.

[Guest woodman]

I just got back from picking up my two new set-ups from my local shop and after standing around gawking & talking with these guys for 45 minutes I gotta say I'd stick with my hard boot set-up no matter what. These guys told me themselves the fun they had this week checking out my boards and admiring the advancement in alpine technology represented in my new Silberfeil and titanium step-ins. These are no "light weights" either, we're talking guys who have free rode and hardbooted for over a decade and combined represent some 70 odd years of free riding/racing combined. No offense Bordy, but my home mountain has it's share of top notch hardbooters as well, like last years Junior Canadian Championship winner, even though we're a "little" mountain. Being different is part of the allure of hardbooting, just like riding a twin against japan's major 4 brands of inline fours was in road racing. Carving is a style of riding, how you get it done is up to you......I prefer the hard boots.

Good carving,

Paul

[Bordy]

Jack you are way off base.

You know, it's only a matter of time in each thread, if it gets heated enough (read: interesting), that someone says "just go out and riiiide, maaan".

This is the mating call of terminal intermediates.

If you just want to surf the mountain and take in the good vibe, great, that is way cool. But some of us actually enjoy debating technique. This is what advances the school of carving theory, and results in the equipment that allows you to surf the mountain better.

First Jack, Most of the tech talk on this site is writen by terminal intermediates! Perhaps thats why so many posters still have no idea.

Maybe that also why none of my peers liked posting here. And stopped.

It hurts to see the kid get FLAMED!

Have you spoke with the cat (eddie) who posted the have a good time vibe?

You know you are inferring about Eddie's riding.

I would sure hate to be this Eddie guy. Stuck at a terminal intermediate level. Its a good thing I go make turns with him (read as I may make this post interesting since he is a bro!)

Lets see he is now in his second year on Plates he is now riding one of my old race boards (Burton WCFP 185) and can rail turns on par with 90% off the kids I know.

He has posted lots of, how come, help, advise, questions in the past and still has received very little GOOD ADVISE from this board.

Instead, the same mix mesages and comments by uneducated folk, as well as some real advise from a few.

I think its funny that He happens to be the bases for your comments.

I also think as some one who is listed as one of the "good guys" here you would be more open to the right on vibe.

You're also In with the east coasters. You know thoose guys who have a day job and can type very fast. Hang out on BOL all day talking about riding. Looking foward to ECES so you can all learn to ride a littlle better by talking Technique now? So why not take the time to infer he's some happy hippy by draging out a few letters of text to only help alienate him from your east coast bro's.

Maybe now evertime he post, everyone will take the time to think "hay that eddie dude is posting, Jack inferred he's a terminal intermediate And Jacks a MODERATOR so lets label him as one. Who cares this is just the internet no one has real feeling here its online, Right!

Instead Maybe he is some kid who learned every thing about carving online! When I came across him floundering down the hill charging his ass off. He told me he had learned to carve from BOL and EXTREMECARVING.COM.

Jack that mean in some small way you helped this Kid learn to love to carve.

Its so nice to see you are the one to make fun of him for his new found love as well.

Its good he came full circle right?

I'm just shocked to see you throw around words that judge some one riding.

I am also surprised at this comment.

But some of us actually enjoy debating technique. This is what advances the school of carving theory, and results in the equipment that allows you to surf the mountain better.

Got to call the big Bull**** on this and you know how right I am.

There are maybe 10 people on this site who are correct or close enough to talk about technique. And when the 10 of you start chating you all still can't agree.

I sure hope you have been doing lots of R&D for some big name companys and you and your friends have been talking about carving theroy. Since I'm sure you have it right by now! Who makes this great gear again? Its that big name manufactuor right. Whats their name again?

Point being I have been pushing carving and plates to the next level for so long it just plane hurts to see some one cut some one down for LOVING TO RIDE.

The kid is happy to be on plates.

Be happy for him.

I am no authority on that subject, and honestly I'm not interested in becoming one. A section like that would dovetail nicely with the Welcome Center, under the "Not Quite Ready?" link.

Also I have to agree you are not authority on that subject and the fact that you think NOT QUITE READY. is a good title for people that want to carve on softy is cool, is also a bummer.

Thats what the good vibe is all about I like to think more along the lines of welcoming anyone to the carve reguardless of gear!

Jack remember the hardboot brotherhood is about the feeling of the turn the love of the carve and the joy of the sport. Just because you come to worship in soft boots does not mean we turn you away at the door.

Go out and ride some softys carve some sick turns then come and tell us what it is like to ride in anotehr mans shoes!

, why don't we just all do what we enjoy to do- CARVE. Go out and enjoy life.

Good advise from a good guy!

[Bordy]

I'm sure all your hills have solid riders. The folks I chat with about riding, skiing, and the love of the slide have titles like olympic______(insert medal color of choice)medalest so and so, or overall world superpipe champion__________or US team coach ___________ or WC tuner_____________US team member__________ that is the town PC is, the benifits of haveing the olympic training center here means some of the best winter atheletes in the country live here. Just like it used to be in Lake Placid when I was a little Groom going there to train.

I'm not saying so and so at your hill is not the future. I am saying the kids that rip here are rippers every where they go and they go to every event out there! I just hung out with a bunch of racer and jibbers all week that define the sport as we know it! They are past the hard boot soft boot talk. Just as I am. If you have friends that are or have been pros you know they love the sport! Also you know they have been around enough to know its not how or on what you slide its that you love to slide.

Could be we are just all terminal intermediates!

Maybe we all become experts when we love to ride.

This off course all comes from a guy who stood next to Will Garrow at the end of the US open half pipe contest and together(with about five others) screamed "soft boots are for chicks and fagots" I now know so much more and am sorry to all I offended that day. But hay have you ever had Terje want to beat you up? I have!:D

[Steve Dold]

Jack, I didn't say it in my previous posts but you are right on the money with your comments. There is nothing more irritating than getting a really good technical discussion going and having somebody try to bust up the discussion with "Just shut up an ride, bro". Anyone who doesn't want to read the technical stuff can easily ignore the thread. It's like telling guys in the Paddock at the race track to quit talking about cars and engines and just go out and drive.

Eddie, sorry you got flamed, but it sucks when you throw a wet towel on a thread that a lot of us are enjoying. I hope you stay though, when guys like you and Bordy give advice and opinions I like to hear it.

(Edited to remove some of the anger :D )

[eddie]

I am NEVER going to ride snowboards AGAIN!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

Eddie

[eddie]

I don't expect to ever be taken seriously on BOL anyway. I am not within the "in crowd.";)

Discussions about technique are happening all the time on BOL, in fact, the same ones over and over. For a while I was learning much from BOL and after every session that I rode (by myself) I would make a mental note of what I found difficult, come home and search the discussions or essays on BOL about what could be my problem. I would study pictures of American riders, Euro riders, racers, free carvers, just about anything I could find that had just a slightly different angle on the subject to see techniques in a new light. I put foreign web pages through engines that would translate it for me so I could maybe hear something new for more ideas. I could do that forever, even now, but there comes a time when the physical application of what I pondered had to be put to the test.

I knew nobody in the carving community when I bought my first board and bindings. I had never posted a question about technique before my first day out. I have taken the falls. I have come home bruised. But Jack, it was your essays that have taught me how to carve for the first time. It was your discussions and debates about carving technique that inspired me to try to approach each turn differently to find what works bests for me. I want to read technical info but, when I try to seek new, insightful information on BOL the same people are kicking around the same subject.

Now for my rock climbing class analogy. I searched information about rock climbing in the same method. But after a while of probing knowledge from my instructor he ripped back at me by saying, "No more beta Eddie, shut up and climb!" Harsh lesson quickly learned. To reach new horizions, take what you know and push it to the limit.

Bill can be like my rock climbing instructor. I respect the guy and worship the snow he rides on. He can fill me with beta all he wants but he knows that what I need to do is go out and ride. The "terminal intermediates" of this website need to do just that- go out and ride. The best snowboarders in the world can theorize about technique all they want, but at some time they need to just go out and ride.

Now when I posted my first opinion, it wasn't sarcastic, nor was it like, "Ride on dude!" But to get my point across about progression I had to be blunt. But if you are going to flame me and cry. Go on cry baby, cry. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Besides, anyone who does not want to read my stuff can easily ignore my thread.

Umm.. yeahh. Maybe it's the medication I've been taking for the surgery I had three days ago talking, but I feel liberated.:p

[eddie]

This thread started out as, "if you could carve as hard on softboots, would you" subject. Not the, "Well lets see here according to my numbers... physically impossible to... well you know, I am an engineer so,.."

You guys had to come in and ruin his "if you could" post.

[NateW]

Would,nt it be great if you could have equipment that could carve turns down to your hip(without foot pain) and still skid around on technical terrain.

Whaddaya mean "wouldn't it be great if...?"

It *is* great right now, with:

- Coiler AM 174 (an AM 169 with more nose and tail, 21cm waist, 13m sidecut)

- Raichle 324s

- TD1 step-ins

That's not a complete list, that's just what I happen to be riding for the last couple seasons.

I have been riding hard boots for many years (including a few years on 24-25cm waisted freeride boards), and never thought of carving as a goal in itself until 3-4 years ago (when I found this site, got curious, got serious, and got narrower boards). I switched to hard boots because of 'technical terrain,' not in spite of it.

[Jon Dahl]

Doug, in your post you talked about a setup you could carve in, and still ride technical terrain with some ability. Oh yeah, and have comfy feet. Got it. Raichle SB224's, Snowpro Fast race bindings, 19 to whatever waist width board you want. Foot comfort was why I started with the plastic boots in the first place. Carving soon followed after! And BTW, lets not flame anyone about shut up and ride. My keyboard skills suck (henpecking) but the mans right, there is NO replacement for slope time, or time spent crimping edges, or dragging your knee on pavement......

[Jack M]

Bordy,

Did I call Eddie a terminal intermediate? No. Don't infer. Don't interpret. I stand by my post. People who live by the mantra of "just shut up and ride" or, "just do what feels good" <i>typically</i> will reach a plateau in their riding and stay there. Am I wrong? If Eddie is not one of these people, then he should know the comment was not directed at him. If other people are going to label him now (which I highly doubt), that is their stupid problem.

It's just a little irritating when we're trying to discuss technique in the hopes of improving ourselves, and along comes someone who looks down their nose at us and says something like "you guys need to go ride and get your head together", as if there's something wrong with us. Of course we all want to just go out and ride. That should go without saying.

Also, your list of associates is quite impressive, but I'm not sure I need etiquette lessons from someone who yelled "softboots are for..." at a halfpipe contest. By the way, I thought that was hilarious. I might have chosen different words, but you've definitely got big ones.

Eddie,

Sorry to make an example out of you. I think you and everyone else knows that I don't have any idea how you ride, nor do I know if you live by the "shut up and ride" motto or not. Therefore, the terminal intermediate comment wasn't directed at you specifically, so don't take it personally. I'm very glad that my articles here have helped you, and it sounds like you are hungry to learn (as am I), which is great. I have also enjoyed your other posts, you seem like a good guy.

You are definitely right that at some point someone does have to step back and shut-up-and-ride, but I don't think that here is the right place to tell someone that. I think only an instructor watching your riding in person can tell you that. Here is where people come when they're <i>not</i> shutting up and riding.

As for the repetitiveness of the info discussed here, it is because not everyone is in synch with you and everyone else in their carving progression. It seems every week there is another green carver showing up here with the same old questions, and that's great, that's why we're here. As for new stuff, well, start something! I'm working on a new tech article myself, but I can only do so much, being the working stiff that I am. I also think there is some good fresh stuff that gets discussed every now and then.

Peace,

-Jack

[John Gilmour]

I ride with Vin Q in softies from time to time. I think we have somewhat similar soft boot carving styles - though Vin gets lower.

Vin prefers the versatility of a super stiff soft boot set up. Vin rides everything- powder, trees, glades, groomers etc.

I, on the other hand, tend towards prefering a softer hardboot set up. I am not a tree guy or powder hound (unless I'm out west).

I can take a hard boot set up and a soft boot set up- ride boards of equivalent sidecut and go out and cut some arcs - and for the sake of comparison- match the lower speed of the soft boot set up.

IMHO the hard boot set up wins. I suppose they should be the same since you are cutting the same turns at the same speed- in fact for some the soft boots comfort factor should win out.

So apparently I can match the performance (mostly by decreasing my hard boot performance) and then rate the experience.

The thrill- is not as great with soft boots- you don't get that Super cutting power- edge transitions take more effort in soft boots.

Take two decks of the same materials and construction methods and longitudinal flex-the wider one will ussually twist more.

So what this means is that in the wider soft boot set up you must compensate for board twist by exagerating your own body twist and by torqueing the crap out of your boots and bindings. Personally I find this considerably less comfortable - particularly on the heelside.

For the same speed the soft boot set up should require you to ride lower- mostly to make up for the aforementioned shortcomings. But you can only go so low....then once down on the snow you approach your speed limits of holding the carve pretty rapidly. The only things supporting you after this are the stiffness of your boots and bindings. Which- are both softer than hardboots and bindings.

You can carve well on soft boots but not with the same power, speed and precision. Being on soft boots cuts out at least 20%-30% of my top carving speed, 50%-60% of my power,30% of the g's, and 60-70% of the thrill..........but it still can look good to lesser carvers from the lifts, and since you are in softies you get more respect from other soft boot riders- IMHO I'd rather look like a mutant in hard boots having a killer time than ride soft boots and look killer but feel less than thrilled.

Porsche has a new SUV the Cayenne S, and while it is versatile , fast and can corner well- it is simply no match on paved roads for Porsches with similar horsepower and vintage. Whats more thrilling- cornering in a Porsche SUV, or cornering faster in a Ferrari? Some people might choose the SUV to be different. You can see people racing SUV's on pavement on the "speed network".

Soft boot carving is great though when I find myself on terrain that I would be bored on in hard boots. At killington after 11am lots of trails get tracked out and Snowdon still has decent snow- so after 11 when I feel stuck at a small vertical drop area with limited terrain the soft boots keep it interesting. I'll tend to ride softies when I'm riding with snowboarders with less experience- or when stuck on slower snow, or when at smaller resorts with moderate pitches- then teh trade off from soft to hard boots doesn't seem as great.

________

VAPORIZER REVIEWS

[eddie]

But, you did infer that I was a terminal intermediate, and, this post was not a technical discussion. As you can see from Doug's last post he is fustrated that everyone has taken the technical line.

Doug

If I could ride soft boots and get the same carve I would. There are less things on the boot that can break.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by eddie

But, you did infer that I was a terminal intermediate, and, this post was not a technical discussion. As you can see from Doug's last post he is fustrated that everyone has taken the technical line.

Okay, then I apologize for inferring that you are a terminal intermediate. Friends?

Back on topic now... I would say that the original question was somewhat technical in nature, unless it was only supposed to be a poll, because how are you supposed to answer without getting a little technical? I happen to think the question is - what's the right term here, trivial? Because I don't believe any softboot setup will ever match the carving performance of a hardboot setup. If there was such a thing, of course, who wouldn't use it?

-Jack