Half a Run

[Rob Stevens]

8 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Don't you want your hips lined up with your stance in the soft-booting world?

"Rotate your hips earlier and more" doesn't work in this scenario. If anything, that decreases edge angle at a time when you want it to increase. 

 Find pressure on the heel of your back foot, hip angulate in alignment with your back foot, THEN rotate to complete the turn to a degree that aligns with your front foot.

I'd love to post a video I have that is 1.2 MB, but the rejection says the video exceeds 4.313 MB. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Rob Stevens

[Jack M]

28 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Don't you want your hips lined up with your stance in the soft-booting world? Meaning, I agree with you, that picture is wrong.

And in the hardboot world too. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

And in the hardboot world too. 

That's part of the trouble I am having in softies, rotating my hips to where they would be on my hard boot rig which loses my edge on heelside.   I only have a handful of days on softies so far so lots to learn yet.

[nextcarve]

2 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

No.

No. Then again, I'm only guessing what I'm no'ing about.

Well
If you apply too much inclination, slamming your but into the ground, the pressure is on your bottom instead the edge and your loosing it (proven in the video above).

By adding the right amount of rotation, leading to a more angulated position, you avoid this problem. And I did not say to apply rotation too early, but early enough avoiding the above.

To prove, that you'll still have all the edge angle you need, here some footage of us riding our 20m+ SCR GS Boards in the steep, with rotation and not loosing the edge :

PS: By the way the example image is captured from this K-Carving lessons about BBP here (subs in English):
https://youtu.be/Pj3S0DNh8qY

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by nextcarve

[Neil Gendzwill]

3 minutes ago, nextcarve said:

To prove, that you'll still have all the edge angle you need, here some footage of us riding our 20m+ SCR GS Boards in the steep, with rotation and not loosing the edge :

You are riding quite steep forward angles on alpine boards there, and your hips are not rotated much past your binding angles.  We're talking low binding angle softboot carving here.

[nextcarve]

17 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

You are riding quite steep forward angles on alpine boards there, and your hips are not rotated much past your binding angles.  We're talking low binding angle softboot carving here.

Yep softboot, no rotation possible there ;-))

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

3 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

I'd love to post a video I have that is 1.2 MB, but the rejection says the video exceeds 4.313 MB.

Put it up on youtube and link it, please.

[crackaddict]

14 hours ago, nextcarve said:

 

@nextcarve 'Round these parts we call that "Eurocarving". You've posted a beautiful example of a style of carving characterized by bodies lying on the snow and video clips that rarely show more than two or three turns in a row. The body position is over rotated from our perspective and there's a tendency towards down unweighting through transitions and extension through the apex of the turn. Some snow also has been knows to accumulate on the neck while Eurocarving. Rather than striving to get lower on the snow, we here in Revelstoke like to try to conserve our momentum by making our tracks as thin as possible. We strive to minimize also our contact with the snow, keeping the maximum force on the edge and balancing there. The latest trend here is the eschew the racer's hop between turns in favour of a smooth and effortless-looking transition. You say that you're holding your edge but actually you're chattering right through every turn, look at your board flop around in slow motion...  Eurocarvers control their sped by dragging their bodies and displacing more snow with their boards. We control our speed by turning up hill. Our beards and goggles stay drier, we bask in that smooth rollercoaster ride of a 180 hairpin and find fulfillment in the experience of angular acceleration. Pretty sure my track is thinner than yours, and I'm probably going faster than you too on a narrower, steeper run in soft boots but thank you for showing me how it's done out there. Great video for real, looks cool. In fairness I did ask for notes so thanks also to @Rob Stevens for reminding me that I'm on my last pair of mittens, and to @dredmanfor pushing me to make a transition on a 30 waist that looks as good as his do on a 19.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Jack M
fixed quote

[Jack M]

Rob's clip:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2T7WLjR/0/a68765fc/1280/i-2T7WLjR-1280.mp4

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Haha, yes I just noticed you have a YouTube kids account. Try to switch it over!!

[crackaddict]

47 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Haha, yes I just noticed you have a YouTube kids account. Try to switch it over!!

Okay okay... 

I had fixed the channel but I had to go through each video too tonight.  No one watches my crap, that channel is just to share video with you boys.  Maybe something quality coming soon though...

[nextcarve]

@crackaddict... and I just wanna have fun :-)))

11 hours ago, crackaddict said:

You say that you're holding your edge but actually you're chattering right through every turn, look at your board flop around in slow motion..

You do not seem to have noticed, that this softboot carver doing "eurocarving" (we tend not to think in continental terms and call this extreme carving) is not me ;-)) @Neil Gendzwillwas pointing out, that "We're talking low binding angle softboot carving here" and I showed you a rotated softboot carver. Probably not a good example for the actual help of rotation.

I just saw a guy struggling and leaving pretty wide pencil lines (if not even catters :-)) and loosing his edge in the steep. Therefore I thought I might help, because I don't have this issues and I also know softboot carvers who don't. Both rotation and down unweighting are just tools and in the steep they are helpful to reach a more even distribution of the forces on your edge during the turn and avoid peeks, which are one of the causes for cater or/and loosing the edge. You don't have to overrotate and lay down your whole body into the snow like those extreme carvers do.

What I learned; never post videos of others, even if I'm too lazy. Therefore I now posted the above foto and the following video of me (first rider me and the rest of my crew) - now cattering, I promise ;-))

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by nextcarve

[Jack M]

15 hours ago, nextcarve said:

Yep softboot, no rotation possible there ;-))

Anything is possible on good snow.  And hold your damn phone the right way when taking video!! 

 

13 hours ago, crackaddict said:

You've posted a beautiful example of a style of carving characterized by bodies lying on the snow and video clips that rarely show more than two or three turns in a row.

And almost any technique and almost any equipment works on good snow.  Got an eyeful of this last year at MCC where former world cup racers were giving clinics on 1990s gear, and killing it all over the mountain.  I think this thread is about having fun, not racing technique, so no need to say who's having fun more correctly.  (yes I have been guilty of this)  In racing, we can see the correct technique and equipment in plain sight.  However sometimes a good racer will lay down an extremecarve in an emergency.

[Neil Gendzwill]

@nextcarve those are some beautiful EC turns but I feel like we’re talking apples and oranges here. James is doing it in softies on a slope so steep that most resorts wouldn’t groom it, and you can see the grooming isn’t great. You’re in hard boots in perfect conditions and it’s not particularly steep or narrow. 

[nextcarve]

17 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Anything is possible on good snow.  And hold your damn phone the right way when taking video!! 

Hehe, seems like reading my latest post was not the priority of this comment. Otherwise you would have noticed, that it's not my "damn" (why so angry) phone, video and it's not me riding in softboots.

Anyway; I really don't care if anyone appreciates my input, but believe it or not, I don't lose my edge even on steeper and worse runs than on my video (I know, if it's not on video ....).

As a last try (and against my last posts intention not too post videos of others again :-) I post a video of a korean rider (no me). Maybe you can spot how he applies just the right amount of rotation at the heel side:

In the end everyone has to follow his path/track/carve and there's not only one way.

[Xargo]

EC type of riding suits the steeps great though and does work with softboots. What I particularly like about what James (and some others) are doing is breaking the thinking that only hardboots and alpine stance can handle big edge angles and carving steeps. Of course softboot EC is nothing new but still there's no production EC board with around 30cm waist. Personally I want to learn EC so I can combine my riding as some kind of mix of "conventional" softboot carving and EC. Here's an example of a Matti riding EC type of turns through that around 33° (the steep part) Ukko slope at Koli with a softboot setup:

... and here's my try from last season so you can see how the slope is a little better. I'm all over the place since these were my first EC style turns on steep terrain:

Note that even though I'm riding hardboots, the board is 247mm wide Contra and angles are pretty relaxed. Now I'd love as wide as possible Contra for my next board. Then there's the topic about boots/bindings as well. Like for an example my current setup (as shown in that Eliminator vid) is using Hawx Ultra XTD 95 flex boots, which are softer than many stiff softboots... So I feel like the whole softboot vs. hardboot divide is becoming a bit old and maybe it would be more relevant to think about stance angles.

[Jack M]

1 minute ago, nextcarve said:

Hehe, seems like reading my latest post was not the priority of this comment. Otherwise you would have noticed, that it's not my "damn" (why so angry) phone, video and it's not me riding in softboots.

It was more of a global grievance.  VVS triggers me.

 

[nextcarve]

26 minutes ago, Jack M said:

It was more of a global grievance.  VVS triggers me.

 

I empathize :-))

By the way, am I the only one who doesn't see emojis anymore in the posts of this forum?

[philw]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:00 PM, Neil Gendzwill said:

... When I was shopping for a softie board I saw reviews that said boards like the Yes PYL were good for carving, long radius turns and going fast.  That board has around a 7 m sidecut, this does not compute.  Do these guys have different definitions of "long radius" and "fast" than I have, or do they actually make that work somehow?  My NFC with the 12-14 m sidecut feels stable at speed and does long radius well.  10 m or less feels twitchy to me at mach schnell.

I rode Big White just before xmas with some fairly well known washed up Canadian snowboarders. The resort was empty and we were riding with the patrol down wide and easy rolling slopes usually unsafe at mach schnell. I don't think you'll see speeds like those at a resort very often. I had to check, but the biggest of us was riding an 8.75m radius. My own tiny board is 6.6m.

I found previous generation short [soft boot] boards "noodly" at high speed. They'd be unsatisfying because the "turn" switch was binary: at high speed you'd be either doing some sort of high speed hockey-stop type turn, or running straight. 

Whatever, with my 6.6m radius 144, the edge just bites and holds, even at speed. The board's actual turn radius is what I want it to be, from right across the piste to very short radius. 

Quote

Do these guys have different definitions of "long radius" and "fast" than I have, or do they actually make that work somehow? 

I can't speak for the Yes marketing department. "EC" riding looks pretty slow though, from what I've seen. My experience then has been: (1) good riders can make short radius boards work very well at high speeds; and (2) some soft boot boards are much better at this than others.
 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Me neither! Emojis showing up as broken links. Online discussion about preferred carving styles is always safer with lots of stupid smiley faces…..

Edited January 20, 2023 by ShortcutToMoncton

[Xargo]

The problem with short radius sidecuts is that they tend to cause the middle of the board to disengage in icy conditions and high edge angles. Like this (this is with 5.8m scr):That's why I now want to ride boards with long radius sidecuts and choose the flex according to the turn shape I'm looking for. Softer flex board can be more easily hammered into tighter turn with high edge angle. After riding the Eliminator (over 13m) and Tracer (under 8m) back to back, I'm pretty sure about this. Of course this only applies to kind of riding where you go for high edge angles.

[pow4ever]

from my mere mortal perspective  “Any sufficiently advanced riding is indistinguishable from magic.”
Love the positive vibe and inspiration!  i am a firm believer that i can learn from anyone.  what we do is personal expression of one's style.  poetry in motion.  Enough platitude from me.  more conquering the steep!!
look like emoji is fixed/forum software was updated.  i notice CDN and certs errors (nerd is going to nerd) earlier...

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, nextcarve said:

By the way, am I the only one who doesn't see emojis anymore in the posts of this forum?

1 hour ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Me neither! Emojis showing up as broken links.

I just applied an update, hope it fixes this.

 

[nextcarve]

21 minutes ago, Jack M said:

I just applied an update, hope it fixes this.

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

5 hours ago, nextcarve said:

As a last try (and against my last posts intention not too post videos of others again :-) I post a video of a korean rider (no me). Maybe you can spot how he applies just the right amount of rotation at the heel side:

I can see the rotation there but that guy is pretty much at hard boot angles as are many of the Koreans.  @crackaddict, what kind of angles are you rocking these days?