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Front side problem (likely setup)?


pow4ever
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Inspired by the ice heel side thread:

https://forums.alpinesnowboarder.com/topic/50920-losing-backside-hold-on-icy-conditions/

I was lucky and for the past few season i enjoy relative balance front/back side bliss.
This season for whatever reason:  my toe side just seems weaker

Jack's article comes to mind:
http://alpinesnowboarder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-Toeside-Problem.pdf

i think i will figure it out eventually but Zombie land rule #52: Don't be afraid to ask for help

lots of minor changes changing boot, board, binding between last season and this season.

the culmination seems to be heel side is still good but toe side feel weak.
Or maybe the condition is bad enough this year it exposed the imbalance/weakest link.

Case point:

on the same run - heel side no problem.  keep on washing out on Toe side.
This is not NE hardpack; this is ice ice bay.

on the heel side:  I can modulated/gradually increase edge pressure smoothly so.
or i have a good reference point on where my body position should be how to pressure the boot laterally to do that.

some where between all the micro adjustment - my toe side become WTF...
It feels like I am not putting enough pressure or maybe too much pressure on the edge but it's not smooth and missing the "frame of reference"/feed back are gone.  It become taking a leap of faith.  Maybe it will hold; maybe it will not.

Another data point:  the sound it make is dramatic different..

front/toe side -- scratchy/loud 
backside -- nice calming ice slice

outward cant on the back foot seems like a good idea.

difficult to get to a slope and experiment so internet snowboard will have to do for now. 

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49 minutes ago, pow4ever said:

on the same run - heel side no problem.  keep on washing out on Toe side.
This is not NE hardpack; this is ice ice baby....

...my toe side become WTF...
It feels like I am not putting enough pressure or maybe too much pressure on the edge but it's not smooth and missing the "frame of reference"/feed back are gone.  It become taking a leap of faith.  Maybe it will hold; maybe it will not.

Another data point:  the sound it make is dramatic different..

front/toe side -- scratchy/loud 
backside -- nice calming ice slice

 

 

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My experience with either side turns not holding/chattering/slarving has been that I have not been tilting the board with both feet. Most often the leg/foot on the outside of the turn gets lazy. 

I aim to feel my body balanced over the edge of both feet, the side that is making the turn.

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interesting. 
Thank you Erik.  Now that i have some time to digest/crunch the experience.  
the reason i "feel" i am not putting enough pressure toe side is because the speed are increasing(my perception; might not be reality).
If i back off the pressure; i don't wipe out but had to slarve a bit to bleed off some speed (toe side only).

As you so eloquently put it; i seems to have the right move but are deploying them at the wrong time.
Funny thing that keeping tempo have been the most challenge part but one of the most rewarding part in carving (when execute properly).

The part that seems to be missing(toe side only) -- lack of reference point/feedback/modulating.  every season it take me a long time to tune/dial that tempo in.  This season just seems take extra long

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39 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

My experience with either side turns not holding/chattering/slarving has been that I have not been tilting the board with both feet. Most often the leg/foot on the outside of the turn gets lazy. 

I aim to feel my body balanced over the edge of both feet, the side that is making the turn.

right; on the heel side I can feel what's engaged and what's doing what.
On the toe side:  its like a void; lack of "familiar" feedback.  Maybe i need to look for new signal or be more percetive?

"I lost that lovin' feelin'
Whoa, that lovin' feelin'
I lost that lovin' feelin'
Now it's gone, gone, gone, whoa-oh".

chicken vs egg:  is it feeling -> setup or setup -> feeling ?

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16 hours ago, pow4ever said:

Now that i have some time to digest/crunch the experience.  
the reason i "feel" i am not putting enough pressure toe side is because the speed are increasing(my perception; might not be reality).
If i back off the pressure; i don't wipe out but had to slarve a bit to bleed off some speed (toe side only).

 

The part that seems to be missing(toe side only) -- lack of reference point/feedback/modulating. 

You mentioned the difference in sound between toeside and heelside. From your description, it sounds like the toeside is skidding, or at the very least, that edge is not engaging as well as the heelside.

If your toeside speed increases, it means you aren't bending the board. That could be related to weight distribution, overall edge tilt, board twist, all three, or a player to be named later.

If your heelside comes around as you like, then your front binding is probably mounted in a good place. If you feel the front boot tongue on the toeside before you feel the sole of that foot, you can be edging without actually bending the board.

(As Alan suggests, figure out what's going on under your feet. When, where, what, etc.)

Also possible that your feet are too far apart, so you hit the rear boot tongue before the front foot sole, then kink the board using the rear boot as a lever. This will give you bite, but a shallow turn radius.

If your heelside is wicked solid, you might be holding on too long, setting yourself up late for the toeside, at which point you're catching up under adverse conditions with unknown confounders.

Also possible that you could be weighting the front end of the board with your upper body rather than your core. This would give you some bite at the beginning of the turn, and then nothing in the second half.

So, Options.....

Edited by Beckmann AG
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Thank you all for the tips/things to try.

I agree the toe side engagement is lacking.  <-- problem statement.
on hardpack as long as i can dig an edge in I am ok but on the real ice stuff it just doesn't feel as secure as heel side. 

I like to think i know what a proper toe side should feel like.
The frame of reference i had for toe side have gone attenuated.  so if i am looking for that signal to turn and it's not there; it will mess up the tempo/timing for sure.

Hence i think/hope/pray that it's something in the setup.  Maybe the bad habit/technique plus improper setup (2 wrong = right) was a crutch that i been relied on too heavily.    

It's very possible that i had this problem all along but this season it seems to manifest in a way that make it much more bothersome. 

Yes; the front foot i would say is comfortable/dialed in (occasional black toe when i attempt "jump" and failed)...
The back foot is never quite right; always shin bang and the line tongue doesn't stay in place. 
You did mentioned outward cant which it's on my to do list.

shorten the stance
technique <- likely the culprit but blame setup is easier lol. 

one change at a time 🙂

 

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21 hours ago, pow4ever said:

 

outward cant on the back foot seems like a good idea.

 

IMHO, outward cant on the back foot would lessen your ability to tip the board, while inward cant would increase your ability to edge the board, but I would first put outward cant on the front foot to increase edge angle, you will lose a little of the rear edge grip, but you get your front edge back, did you by chance recently start carrying a water bladder, the weight up top would take some adjustment to rebalance.

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7 hours ago, pow4ever said:

You did mentioned outward cant which it's on my to do list.

Have had so many things on my mind that I totally forgot about that, and how that was probably related to the creeping tongue syndrome.

Oops. Sorry about that.

It's very possible that i had this problem all along but this season it seems to manifest in a way that make it much more bothersome. 

In the context of higher performance boots and supported feet, there are fewer places for the effects of input error to leak out. And on actual ice, as you know, that's a problem. 

You may find that with the rear binding and/or boot cuff tilted outward, you'll enter the toeside earlier,(more favorable leverage ratio at the back leg) the board will be less twisted in the toeside arc, and the toeside will sound more like the heelside.

 

Edited by Beckmann AG
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I'm of the opposite mindset, I feel that on toe sides the front foot is the power driver so I cant out to engage the edge faster and then achieve a higher edge angle, while I feel the rear foot is the power driver for the rea edge and adjusting it in or out to adjust balance, I leave my rear flat cantwise, love my rear edge.

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@ursle  Thank you for the tip!  

I agreed that "outward cant on the back foot" should not be a common recommendation.
In this particular case it was based on observation.  Erik notice something about my knee/skeletal anomaly and suggest that i gave it a try.

the most recent addition* to the mix is awesome footbed which increase the foot support, stability and comfort.
However I am so used to ride without proper foot support that it's throwing me for a loop...  i went from not sensitive to setup change to being hyper sensitive.  I do believed this is move in the right direction(over all) but just gotta get over this hump.

*it's "death by thousand cut"/ lots of "small change" add up to something is off:
new boot(took about a whole of last season to get use to) + newish binding (F2 -> SG binding; very simila)
new board(same issue on my daily driver, new board actually seems to help), new footbed, not optimal condition (for me) and etc.

 

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