Do I sound like a carver? Debating on taking the plunge...(long)

[Guest astan100]

Hey guys,

I just stumbled across this forum and it seems like the perfect place to help me figure out what kind of board is right for me based on my style.

I've been snowboarding for about 2 years now. I probably have about 24 days under my belt and I'm progressing very quickly in my own mind.

Recently, I've learned how to not wash out or slip my board and I've focused on carving. I've never really looked at websites until recently, but it looks like I'm mastering the basics of carving. I just want to make sure before I take the plunge and get an alpine board that my goals and what the board is designed for makes sense.

To start...my abilities. I think I'm pretty decent. I always chastise myself when I wash my board out and I think I'm developing sort of a french style of snowboarding where your body points downhill and your board carves back and forth below you. It took a few days to get this to a point where I didn't slip out the back, but I think I'm there now. I started pushing my bindings to steeper angles...from +16 +6 to like +25 +15 or so. I found that helps me carve because my feet are more parallel to the board .

In any case, doing some reading, I think that I've mastered what they call Cross-unders pretty well. I can go FAST down hills while carving. I'd like to think I keep a pretty good edge while on steep slopes and very few people are fast enough to pass me.

So, this brings me to my goals (yeah, this is kind of a disertation). I want to be able to do moguls and ride in powder. I'm getting this impression that alpine boards are best for very very well groomed trails and they can't do all terrain well. Is that true? An all mountain board seems kind of lame if it is like a skinnier version of a freestyle board...Can I get an alpine board that will let me carve with more stability and faster...but still allow me to do moguls? I guess I shouldn't get some 168 board or something, but what would a shorter board be like?

I definitely don't fully trust my board at the speeds I'm going enough to really lean into it and could use more stability. Note: I can't DO moguls yet, but I really want to learn soon. I have 0 interest in jumps crazy jumps and stuff like that.

So I dunno, where do I fall? Is an alpine board for me? I want to try to find a place that will let me rent one, but I feel like one try won't be enough.

Thoughts?

-Allen

[Guest alakata]

sounds like you should be a carver........alpine boards make all the difference in the world for carving, i dont think they're any good in moguls though. try to find a local ski racing shop or alpine board shop and look for a demo board to try.

[Guest Randy S.]

Originally posted by astan100

I'm progressing very quickly in my own mind.

:D :D Sorry, couldn't resist.

So, this brings me to my goals (yeah, this is kind of a disertation). I want to be able to do moguls and ride in powder. I'm getting this impression that alpine boards are best for very very well groomed trails and they can't do all terrain well. Is that true? An all mountain board seems kind of lame if it is like a skinnier version of a freestyle board...Can I get an alpine board that will let me carve with more stability and faster...but still allow me to do moguls?

Allen,

Take a look at the Donek Axis (shorter lengths if you really want to do moguls) or Coiler AM (but they're sold out through '06). Its a great board for all mountain riding (yes, even in pow) while still providing enough stability to handle high speeds. You may have to move the bindings back a little to handle pow, but everything else is great.

It sounds like you are making great progress. When you switch to hard boots/bindings/board, you'll find the initial jump in binding angles a bit challenging for a short time, but you'll quickly adapt. I suspect you'll never go back once you switch. Welcome to the wonderful world of carving.

[bobdea]

was on a volkl RT

bumps are hell in a boot that is too stiff and on a board that is too long.

that said I would go with all mountain carver like a Donek Axis or Coiller AM, I have ridden both and let me tell you both I would bring anywhere.

a all mountain carver paired with a gushy boot you will be fine.

alpine decks are just allot harder to land on thats the only real disadvantage I can see.

[Guest astan100]

hmmm...but I almost feel like if I go hard boots, I should just go all out and give it my alll...freecarve board at least.

I dunno.

Am I going to be losing a lot if I start out with a mountain carver type board vs freecarve?

I think the only reason I want to do moguls is because I don't want to be unable to go through parts of mountains.

I was at Mt. Snow (VT) the other day and all the blacks there started with moguls. I felt sooo handicapped.

Also, I couldn't ride with my skiier friends (yeah, I have some).

So, is it easier to get new friends, or a board that will let me do moguls...

[Guest astan100]

As a side note, I read that super long thread about one guy's transition into carving and it was inspiring.

I'm goin to try and start pushing my bindings out on my freestyle board to see if it helps me transition. It can't hurt.

[Galen]

Originally posted by astan100

I'm goin to try and start pushing my bindings out on my freestyle board to see if it helps me transition. It can't hurt.

That's a good place to start, though it looks like your on your way to getting a carving set-up. :) Dont get too hung up on binding angle numbers, just adjust your bindings so your toes and heels just reach the edge, maybe set the back binding 5-10 degress less then the front if that feels more comfortable. Check out the tech articles on this site, I'm also fairly new to this(started last year) and I pick up something new every time I read them. Welcome to the darkside:cool:

[Guest astan100]

So here's the slightly unrelated question. Do you guys wax your boards non-stop? On other snowboarding forums...or just one I saw...every other thread was about waxes...maybe you guys just ride your boards so much on the edge it doesn't matter?

[Jack M]

Hi Allen,

Hope you've found our Welcome Center. If you can do "the norm" on your current board and you can carve your downhill edge, you're probably ready for an alpine setup.

Yes, all-mountain carving boards like the Donek Axis, Prior 4x4, and Coiler All-Mountain are very capable carvers as well as in the powder and all-terrain. Although if you think you want to go right into a freecarve board, you can't go wrong with the Donek 171fcII. Incidentally, my best day in moguls was on one of those. It's 19.5cm wide at the waist, which is fairly wide, making it pretty maneuverable and floatable. And it carves like a dream.

IMO, hardboots are superior in moguls because of the extra support. I find it difficult in softboots to stay centered while riding moguls. I always feel like I'm about to go "over the handlebars" in softboots in moguls.

Good luck!

[Guest astan100]

You guys just mentioned a whole bunch of obscure brands (which I'm sure are much better). In general, I find that it's hard to get good deals on the smaller independant companies but that their products are much much better. What kind of length/effective edge should I be looking for if I still want to do moguls and generally ride smaller northeastern mountains?

Do I have any chance of getting end of season deals?

I did read through all of your welcome stuff and most of your tech articles. I'm going to try this norm thing out this weekend. I guess it's back to the basics sort of. I'm def. doing weaker carving now, so I'm sure I can nail this norm thing...hopefully :)

I want to buy a setup that will last me for a bit (especially the boots and bindings). So I have no problem shelling out good money now on worthy gear. I'm going to read aroudn the site trying to get some ideas of what people have liked riding on.

[Steph]

Allen,

Are you on the East Coast? You mentioned riding at Mount Snow, so I'm assuming that you are. Check out the post for the Okemo carving weekend March 10-13. There may be some equipment there for demos, which will allow you to ride some boards and feel the difference before making the plunge. Also, if you do decide to attend Okemo, try to hook up with PSR (Eric Brammer). He can definately give you the help needed to get you off to a good start. Finally, don't forget to check out the Classified's section: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=3

There is some good gear for cheap.

Good Luck!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Allen, I have been using hardboots and all-mountain boards with 21.5 cm waists in the moguls for about 5 years. Before that it was a 25 cm waisted freeride board, also with hardboots. I like the narrower waist and more forward stance better, but I wouldn't want to go much narrower.

As far as going to a freecarve board right away - the previously mentioned boards (Donek Axis, Coiler AM, Prior 4WD) will carve plenty hard. At your experience level and for what you want to do, they will certainly provide all the platform you can handle for the next phase of your snowboarding life.

If you're uncomfortable with the expense of these boutique boards, Chris Klug's site has a good cheap alternative. The '98 Alp 64 shown here is only $160 and is a very similar design to the Axis/AM/4WD, although probably quite a bit softer. It should work very well as a starter all-mountain/bump board.

[Guest astan100]

Guys thanks for all the useful insight...it really helps.

So, let's say I go with an all mountain board...if I can carve pretty well on that but it gives me some extra flexability, that is prob. the board for me

I weigh about 180 and I'm like 6'.

How stiff a board do I look for and what length are we talking. I'm thinking something in the 164 range would be good as long is has a decently short effective edge, right? Can I get a longer board?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Short effective edge? Carving boards have long effective edges.

This really depends on the board. For example, at your weight if your talk to Prior, they probably would want you on the 174 or the 179 rather than their 169. But you could get them to do a little custom on the 169 and stiffen it up for your weight. OTOH if you're planning on a lot of bumps, you might want to go with the stock 169, intentionally having it a little softer than ideal for carving for better bump performance. I was on one of their older 165s and it worked real well in the bumps, but it was a mite soft on the groom.

If you go with Coiler then Bruce would make it right for your weight regardless of length but then again there's that 1 year wait. Sean over at Donek can build an Axis to suit, too, I bet.

I'm a little heavier than you (190) and I'm on a Coiler AM172, and I don't find the length an issue at all. Lots of guys here ride really long boards but if you want to be in the bumps you probably want to stay under 180, and maybe more towards 170.

Rambling now, hope that was helpful.

[Guest jeremiah]

I bought a Donek Axis 177 as my first real carving board, and it works very well for me. I'm heavier though, maybe 210 but also shorter. I find that I can take it in the bumps, but it took a while to get comfortable with the extra length and stiffness.

Jeremiah

[Guest astan100]

Oh man, that was key rambling. :)

You guys are getting me excited about this whole new world. I think I'm def. in...just have to get some gear now.

when I said short effective edge, I meant shortER effective edge I guess. I.E- nothing designed for realy large wide mountains.

I didn't know I could get a board around 170 or so and still do some bumps.

I've been skimming the classifieds and nothing has really caught my interest or really meet my needs I guess.

I guess I also need to figure out this binding and boots thing. Should I jsut suck it up, buy the TD2's and call it a day?

Money is less of an issue than the desire to buy the right sh!t the first time. I hate rebuying stuff because you cheaped out in the beginning. Also, if someone is specially designing a board for me...it probably means there is NO way I can get a good deal. Oh well...

So here's the question after my rambling:

Which components do you think I should get new vs. used? And are TD2's good?

[D-Sub]

TD2s are badass. theres only one other binding out there that even compares, and I still say get TD2s. less fiddly

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't have any direct experience with Donek, but what I gather from the many discussions comparing them with Prior is that the Doneks are designed more towards carving performance, and that the Prior is designed more for non-groomers. At least, that's what Sean Martin of Donek said. The longer Axis models are supposed to be quite stiff, so I'm not surprised at all to hear that the 177 gives some people grief in the bumps.

So if you're looking to be off the groom and in the bumps, you might prefer Prior. I'd look hard at the 169 if I were you. If you want to save some coin, they have deals on demos and blems on their website.

[Mike T]

The Coiler AM / Donek Axis / Prior 4x4 is definitely where I'd start on boards if I were to do it over again. They are good to pick up hardbooting on, but will also serve you well in the long haul. I've got an Axis 172 that I have just ridden the crap ouit of, and I'm not parting with it anytime soon.

I've got a Coiler AM too, it's a longer custom. Great, great board as well, but you'll have to get one used if you want it before the 06/07 season. Never ridden the 4x4.

I second Randy's recommendation on the shorter lengths in the Axis. I find the 172 to be a great jack-of-all-trades board. The 177 and 182 seem noticably stiff in comparison. The 167 is probably a good choice as well.

Bindings - if money is not an object, TD2s sure are nice! I have 2 pairs plus 3 2nd board kits myself.

Boots - I personally recommend starting with a softer hard boot like a Raichle 224, 324, 423, or DeeLuxe LeMans. The good news is you can probably scare up a used pair for a reasonable price on the classifieds if you place a want-ad. Starting offwith pair of stiff boots is only going to hurt IMHO. I'm 195 pounds and have a couple of full seasons under my belt and still like the softer ones such as those mentioned above.

[Guest astan100]

I was thinking of getting step-ins...I'm going to do a few searches on the site to see if I find anything interesting, but just as a quick question, are there any benefits or drawbacks to getting step ins as a beginner?

I really want the added convienience, but I'm also slightly concerned about the new heels etc. I might need.

You guys have been really really helpful and I really appreciate it!

-Allen

P.S- I'm going to go riding with a 40/30 setup on my freeride board this weekend for fun. Let's see how I do.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You might find at 40/30 that the splay is getting too much. The higher the angles, the less difference between them is the general rule. But give it a go and see how it feels.

As for step-ins - I have them and I'd never go back. There's another recent thread of step-in vs bail that points to other older threads for all the pros and cons.

[Gtanner]

Got to mention Catek bindings. They are much more adjustable than the TD's which can really help you dial-in your stance...plus if you are a bit of a gear-head like myself and a constant fiddler, then the CAtek's are the way to go.

As for boards, I rode a 174cm 4x4 from Prior (+ Catek and Burton Fire boots) over Christmas and used it on everything (no powder though). The board worked exceptionally well in the late-day crud and the early morning goomers. I also took it in the bumps, but realized that the 169 would have been a better length for moguls.

Like Neil said earlier, check the prior website, they have demos and cosmetic blemish boards for a few hundred off retail, so you save some cash there.

As for end of year sales...not really from these high-end manufacturers, but people do clean out their quivers at the end of the season, so you could still snag a deal.

Also for information purposes, check out www.alpinecarving.com This is the Carver's Almanac and can answer many questions for you.

Good luck and as has been mentioned, welcome!

-Gord