Does anyone else turn???

[SWriverstone]

Had a crazy day at Whitetail yesterday---the place was MOBBED. I packed in my carving gear after 5-6 early morning runs 'cause I was having no fun---way too much looking over my shoulder, slamming on the brakes, aborting turns, etc.

I know this is probably a dumb, pointless gripe...but it seems like NOBODY else turns going down the mountain! When I say "turn," I'm talking about a turn that takes you across the slope---not those little 5-foot-baby-slalom turns that a lot of skiers do (which is basically going straight down the mountain with a little side-to-side hip wiggle).

When I do big carved turns, people look at me like I'm a homocidal maniac. I had a couple people yell at me yesterday (even though I was below them and making entirely predictable turns).

Is it like this everywhere? Even out west? It's depressing when I look at all the SES pics, 'cause it appears that there is nobody else on the slopes but carvers! (I never see a skier or softbooter in the background of any of those photos!) Do you guys just scare the riff-raff away by sheer numbers and speed? :)

I just don't get the obsession with straight-lining the mountain. It's like deciding you're never going to savor a meal anymore and will just get a feeding tube implanted in your stomach! (Faster, more direct.)

Scott

[Mike Tokar]

I can sympathize with your predicament dealing with crowds, and I'm also jealous of those lucky people that seem to get the trails to themselves.

When the slopes are crowded, it's not reasonable to think you can carve up the run. If we try to do it anyway, people will look at us like we're homicidal maniacs, because we're riding like homicidal maniacs.

When I'm in crowded situations like that, I try to get through the crowds with a little extra speed and find that magical (and moving) spot on the trail without anyone on it and make some turns, but still feel the need to look uphill to see if anyone's coming.

Even though the downhill skier has the right of way, it's not fair to think we can have the whole width of the trail on a crowded day.

Even when the slopes aren't crowded, and we're riding with other carvers, it can get a bit hairy. We have guys flying across the fall line, using up every bit of space they can, and a blind spot over their heelside shoulder. When the adrenaline gets going, and carvers are so focused on their own line and technique, it can become a recipe for disaster.

One other solution is to pick a "lane" and do short radius turns, but it can feel less satisfying, more strenuous, and is harder to do if you're on a long board with a big sidecut.

I think you made the right move just getting off the hill if it was that crowded, rather than being frustrated at not being able to ride the way you want to.

Weekdays Rock!

MT

[SWriverstone]

Yeah Mike, I guess you're right---not exactly fair for us to assume we can get away with using the whole slope.

A couple other carvers at Whitetail yesterday did better than I 'cause they were carving much smaller turns. I guess I need to work on that---I usually carve on weekday nights (empty slopes), so I've gotten into the habit of doing big turns that use up two-thirds of the slope.

This being my first season in any snow sport, I guess I'm surprised at how many people straight-line the mountain. I mean, even if I never discovered carving, it's just common sense to me that turning = more fun, and a longer run. It just doesn't make sense to bomb down the mountain...but hey, different strokes, etc.

Scott

PS - I'm still waiting to hear if those runs at Ajax and Buttermilk had no other softbooters or skiers on them! :)

[bschurman]

There were really no others on the hill in the mornings but some skiiers filtered in towards the afternoon. But for the most part, there was really no one else on the hills all week until Friday. But even when there were people on the slopes it was pretty easy to find room.

Overall a really great week of carving. We got a little bit of eveything that you could want. sun, powder, hardpack, steeps. Whatever you could think of to carve we got it last week.

[D-Sub]

Scott, youre on a TINY hill in a pretty crowded somewhat urban area.

there are some BIG resorts out west with plenty of room for thousands of people< BUT

Ive seen HUGE lift lines at Steamboat, Mammoth, Vail, and here at Bachelor, and slopes that were crowded enough to make me uncomfortable

they have just as much a right to be there as you and I, so the key is to try to find the not so peak times

[mirror70]

Try making tighter carves on a shorter softer board. Great chance to work on your cross-under technique.

[Jon Dahl]

for shorter radius carves. Yeah, I know, they just aren't as much fun, but you need to put the technique into your bag of tricks to survive. The only thing worse than the straightliners is the ones who do it that way with the board in skid mode.

[PaulY]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl

The only thing worse than the straightliners is the ones who do it that way with the board in skid mode. [/b]

That and the kids on skis doing the snowplow all the way down.

My son and I were out today with the Pres Day crowd and it was pretty frustrating at times, especially on the steeper runs where the kids who shouldn't have been there were scraping all the fresh snow off down to the hardpack and ice. On a whim I had taken my Hot Logical 163. I had a grand time carving around the "meat gates", plus getting confused looks from the kids in the lift lines who have never seen an asym.

[Chris Houghton]

I believe the technical term is "golons" at least that's what CASI and AASI calls them, since they do move at various velocities.

[kinpa]

Scott, sorry to hear about your frustration.... try to come out west sometime. Weekdays are always best, but non holiday weekends have to do. Even here though, we do have an area that bottlenecks heading towards the lift. As much as I want to carve under the lift, it just isn't safe and usually the snow gets pushed off there anyway.

Another thing to keep in mind..... with more people learning the joys of carving on skiis, I've seen more and more people making big, clean arcs in the snow. Maybe someday as more people start to ski/ride like that it will become more acceptable and people will be expecting it more.

[philw]

It's not a problem I've really come across - perhaps I'm picking bigger resorts. Even when things get crowded it's reasonably amusing slaloming around people. Often the slope looks like a lot of people just standing around - if you go fast enough then that's how it seems. And no, I don't/ haven't ever hit anyone, and I don't eat children etc etc.

I guess I also do a lot of different types of turn - I can wiggle my hips with the skiers too. How about learning how to do that. Then there's the mogus: not many people riding those, I find. Plenty of space.

[tripine]

We have to be really careful. Busy or semi busy trails are not for big carving. ;) Adjusting riding style and turns to all mt conditions are especially important for us. It is totally awesome to ride empty trails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[SWriverstone]

I'm definitely all for finding times when nobody's around (that's why I usually go at night).

I'm just amazed at how---at the local resort---there seems to be little-to-no effort made by the resort to at least educate people. The "rules of the slope" are typically printed on the back of the lift ticket---as if anyone ever looks at those---and not easily visible anywhere else. I guarantee if you did a random poll you'd find 80% of people on the slope around here have no clue who has the right of way. I also guarantee 80% of people don't realize it's not cool to just stand around in the middle of the slope.

Our resort (Whitetail) has about 200 instructors (or so it seems sometimes!) but no active slope patrollers. I guess that's because the resort makes no money off patrollers.

At the very least, it would be nice to see a few basic rules printed on an in-your-face, billboard-sized sign that everyone has to walk underneath. They still wouldn't all see 'em, but a few more would.

The bottom line is that the majority rules. :( If everyone on the slope is falling down and standing around, then that's the normal behavioral standard---and anyone in control slaloming through those people is violating the standard (at least as perceived by the falling-down masses).

Scott

PS - Nobody's been able to offer theories about why people like to straight-line mountains. I guess it's the speed? I'm sorry---I think it's stupid. (Like going out and running straight down my street as hard as I can, turning around and walking back up, then doing it again and again. Can you say "hamster on a wheel?")

[TEAMFUN]

Hey Scott! At Whitetail last week one night I saw 3 guys sideslip the whole way down below the high-speed quad, each falling about 3 times each....to me, making turns seems a lot more fun but to each's own. Also, yea, we do have to constantly glance back to make sure the kamikazis or pointers aren't aiming for us as we carve across the slope....or speed up and slalom around the rest and always look for the open terrain. I hope you can make it out wed eve.:D

[D-Sub]

"PS - Nobody's been able to offer theories about why people like to straight-line mountains. I guess it's the speed? I'm sorry---I think it's stupid. (Like going out and running straight down my street as hard as I can, turning around and walking back up, then doing it again and again. Can you say "hamster on a wheel?")"

HA

NO idea, man. turning is much more fun, and far more skilled

[jp1]

Being pretty much new to the whole ski resort thing (now 6 years)myself, I had your exact questions in the beginning.

Unfortunately 'Common Sense' and the ability to 'read' seem to be a thing of the past in this country(specially at smaller ski areas). But of course it is not limited to ski areas. Ever go grocery shopping? Ever drive a vehicle on a public highway? Probably the same people that block the trails are the ones that block the aisles in the store, and stop in the middle of the road for "who knows what". It seems to becomming the 'American way', no thought, no care, no common sense.

Ever see the big signs posted all over the Lodge / Cafeteria areas, "No Ski's or Snowboards Allowed in this Area" ? Probably not, because their are ski's and boards stacked in front of them, laying on the tables and benches. I thought maybe they didn't teach kids how to read until High School or something, but through observation, I noticed age don't have anything to do with it. I see people in their 60's and 70's ignore the signs as well as pre-teens & teens. Actually the younger kids seem to be the ones that recognize the signs (maybe because they are just learning to read) but the parents usually promptly show them how to disreguard the rules.

So Unfortunately I don't think signs would help. I know Killington use to have them posted on lift poles They also had the ski maps convieniently placed of the 'chair bar' under a piece of protective plastic, right in front of you, so when you were on the lift you could check it out, nice touch. Turned out to be something for people to try to destroy. I haven't been there in a year, but I'd bet they are all destroyed by now.

No Respect. No Common Sense. No Enforcement of existing Rules. No one is 'responsible' for their own actions anymore, that's why the 'legal system' is thriving.

[kinpa]

Originally posted by SWriverstone

PS - Nobody's been able to offer theories about why people like to straight-line mountains. I guess it's the speed? I'm sorry---I think it's stupid. (Like going out and running straight down my street as hard as I can, turning around and walking back up, then doing it again and again. Can you say "hamster on a wheel?")

My theory has always been that anyone can point a pair of skiis or a snowboard straight down the hill..... it takes talent to make turns well, stay in control, and look good doing it!

[Mellow Yellow]

I have trouble going straight.... huh.....:D

[Allee]

This is sad but true, but I think that for most people, we're the ones in the wrong. Luckily I don't ride on really crowded or narrow hills very often, and when I do, I tend to ride like everyone else is riding. But I have learned that if you're carving, you are totally out of most people's expectation zone. They simply don't figure you to come back across the trail. Even if, as you say, they're bombing down from above you and can see what you're doing, all it takes is for you to run a carve a bit wider, or as I sometimes do, catch a bump and land a bit hard on a edge which takes that split second more to come back. And WHAM - they've taken you out.

The other thing that people don't get is how you can pick up speed across the trail. And this makes sense - skiers and jibbers get speed from the fall line, but from going ACROSS the hill? that's just completely crazy.

I was thinking about this as I rode down to the lift on Sunday, the end of Angel at Sunshine turns into this pretty funky natural half pipe. It's a green zone and full of newbies, and I watched this kid ride up the side of the pipe on my left, and i just KNEW he was going to come right back across the trail at me. And he did. Never even saw me, just cut me off. I wasn't going fast and I'd anticipated it anyway, but it made me think - that's what we do to other people, and while they're technically in the wrong, one can understand how they may be a little septic when they collide with you.

It's just a fact of life - that everyone else on the hill goes down it. As others have said, we have to learn to live with it. I liken it to a pedestrian crossing the road - you always have the right of way, but if you value your life, walk like everyone else is gunning for you ...

[FTA2R]

so everyone can see that you go across the hill and may have an idea what to expect. And yes, common courtesy, esp. at ski slopes, seems to be a thing of the past.

--

Barry

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by SWriverstone

PS - Nobody's been able to offer theories about why people like to straight-line mountains. I guess it's the speed? I'm sorry---I think it's stupid.

Because it's big, big fun to go real, real fast. Back when I was younger, stronger, and dumber my skiing buddy and I used to try to beat the Olympic chair at Louise - get on it when the liftie said "last ride", and then be fast enough back down to get another last ride. This usually involves skiing Louise from top to bottom in about 3 minutes, which isn't world cup speed but is still hauling some ass.

[Mike Tokar]

The reason I got into hardboots and longer boards was to be more stable at speed. I didn't start trying to "carve" until I went to the first ECES. I used to do about one turn per headwall. It felt like carving, but would be a larger scale. Sometimes I work on "carving technique", sometimes I like to fly, and normally I'll do both in a single run. When my legs get tired, I usually go back to flight mode, it's a lot less tiring.

The pedestrian right of way analogy was perfect. We're all out there having fun, and just have to make sure we don't hurt anyone.

MT