Another "what should I buy" advice request

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

That's likely a pretty decent 'fit'. What you want to do, the first 2-3 days out in them is wear really thin socks, but have another pair (just a tad thicker) on hand in case you get some 'slippage' as they wear in. Also, have your regular, familiar board/gear on hand, as not to end a lift-ticket only 2-3 hrs. into the day. Talk with a bootfitter, too. Little tweaks can adjust fit in ways you might not consider. I'll let the other Erik give you details of how bootfitters can torture their clients while hypnotizing them to give money (it's an Art all it's Own, like, a Good Dentist is!). But realistically, you've got to go ride them to 'pack them in', and the first few times out will have 'comfort' issues. Once you find Those, then 'the healing' can begin. 

 

[ursle]

The stock UPZ liner has great heel hold, and the liners don’t shrink like the wrap around liners, and there isn’t 3/4th’s of an inch of foam underfoot, you do need orthotics. It the liners are heat moldable, great, if not wear em evenings while stationary, your body heat will move them,

, Zipp liners which are silicone and cork and flow use your body heat to hug your feet, Zipp recommends wrapping the shells in a towel, then holding the shell over a large pot of boiling water to get the shells to hot to touch, then inser the liners and put them on, let them cool off, now the shell has molded to the liner and the liner to the foot.

 

repeating, upz liners don’t pack out like the foam wrap around liners, you do need orthotics, they have great heel hold.

a finger and a half is good, save up for custom conformable liners, hand foamed, perfect fit, the upz liners will do while you save up.

after you have a great liner, simply get new shells as they wear out, a pair of 27’s just sold yesterday for 200$

Btw, contact the seller and buy extra buckles, the third buckle on your rear foot is going to dissolve, and having a spare with the torx wrench and nut and bolt with you at the hill will be a life saver

Edited October 4, 2017 by ursle

[Corey]

I can't speak to the stock UPZ liners as they're a terrible fit for my feet.  I had pain in places I didn't know I had places.  ;)  

[kawiboy]

Boy, so much dinking around to get boots to fit. I would hope like hell that these boots last a while. I had my Reactors 22 years with no repairs and still in great functional condition. So back to the toe touching the inside of the liner....still seems like an issue. Anyone else experience this and run with it? 

[philw]

3 hours ago, kawiboy said:

... So back to the toe touching the inside of the liner....still seems like an issue. Anyone else experience this and run with it? 

My toes are very close to the end of the inner on my boots. Depending on how I fasten the boots now and then the toe will contact the liner. If I don't cut my toe nails (seriously) then my toe can get annoyed about that. The solution is to cut the nail. Or remember to fasten the boots correctly. I'm not sure if that helps.

[wjholm]

Hello

I live on Granite Peak.  We met last year.  UPZ's are my choice too.  Tight as hell to begin with,  then they fit like very tight slippers - this  will be a process in the beginning.

 

I have a couple boards you may be interested in.  (I have too many......I think there is a 12-step program I should consider; but, hey this is this first step):

- Coiler 188 custom Monster - wide.  THis is a EC machine; wide enough for the low angles.  In my experience, much more damp and easier to ride than the traditional EC offerings.  Don't let the length scare you, I ride in on Granite Peaks most narrow runs - no problem.

- I maybe willing to sell my well used Coiler Stubby.  161 length.  Does almost everything very well.  But, too narrow for the low angle binding settings the EC crowd touts. You could still pull off full tilt lay-out carves with this, though it may not be a pure EC turn.

- I have more options too.  But, I am a HUGE Coiler fan.  I've ridden many others and always come back to Bruce's creations.  He's making me a soft boot carver for this season. I hope I jumped inn line soon enough!

Get in touch with me, you can try before you buy.  My wife will be much happier if I sell a board or two before I buy another!

 

[kawiboy]

No, that totally does. Cause if the consensus is that they should be that tight or close to the end then I think I'm fine.  So to here more guys say that, would be great. Its hard comparing regular shoe comfort to hard boot fit that shouldn't be sloppy. Cutting the toe nails is a small price to pay for precision. Plus, with a shorter boot than my Reactor I'll be able to get lower binding angles which is a plus.

[Beckmann AG]

7 hours ago, kawiboy said:

I had my Reactors 22 years with no repairs and still in great functional condition. So back to the toe touching the inside of the liner....still seems like an issue.

It would be an issue if your toes were not making contact in a new liner, particularly in a new UPZ liner. Those are reputed to come with teeth on the inside, and take some breaking in before they remotely resemble 'comfort'.

As described, the new shells are, at the very least, too long for your feet. The two finger fit is a snug 'retail' fit, which means the liners will be packed out by the time any return policy has lapsed. 

If you want to avoid heel lift and a second purchase, you should go with just over 1 finger, unless your finger is smaller in diameter than a baby carrot. 

Especially if you plan to 'upgrade' to an actual moldable liner.

 

Typically, the greater part of a budget should be spent on the footwear. Not so much in your case. 

Your gear, especially the board, is somewhat antiquated, and will ride quite a bit differently than something current.

Given that you are happy with your Reactors, and despite being past their freshness date, you should probably use the boots you know on a board you don't, rather than using boots you don't know, on a board that will respond quite differently with updated footwear.

Odds are good the UPZ has a lot more heel height than the Reactor, to the extent that you might feel like this guy on your way to the lift:

 

The narrowish  insert pattern on the FP may not permit enough width or setback to offset the effect of increased boot ramp, and that might get unpleasant.

 

So, consider returning the UPZed's, borrow a board from the generous wjholm, and collect additional real-time data before you start spending a bunch of money on hope.

 

 

[kawiboy]

Beckmann, thanks for the input. It definitely seems I have the right size boots. My Reactors are excessively sloppy especially now knowing how they're supposed to fit. My goal is to get a complete new/nicely used setup. So I'm gonna work the UPZs. I think I may have improperly stated the finger spacing due to the difficulty of putting my hand in my boot. It's definitely no more than a finger and a half. In the end I think it'll be the best path. I can always keep my current setup till I acquire everything. It's just a matter of time before the Reactors break and I can't get parts for them. I'm usually pretty good at adapting to imperfections and making it work good. Thanks again.

[Technick]

18 hours ago, philw said:

My toes are very close to the end of the inner on my boots. Depending on how I fasten the boots now and then the toe will contact the liner. If I don't cut my toe nails (seriously) then my toe can get annoyed about that. The solution is to cut the nail. Or remember to fasten the boots correctly. I'm not sure if that helps.

Same here...

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

So, with the 'almost fit, but those Toes!' thing... Have a bootfitter work the Liner first, (But, damn-it, NO Cutting the outer structure/cloth) with heat and pressure (both in moderation) to form it to fit YOUR foot/toes. IF your Fitter doesn't have 'partial shells', that allow for 'pressure from within' forming (possibly while using a foot-mold that expands, with bulges fitted to it, thus forming the 'pockets' your Bones need!), then, well discuss options or go elsewhere. Stretching/grinding your shells in usually a later attempt/event, as that weakens the shell, and is irreversible. I know, because that's how damn screwed up my Left Foot is now (And I've been in TF liners since '94) due to my working in a Machine Shop. Nothing molded to me 7 yrs. ago matters anymore, my foot got Worked, period. But, I digress; Should a boot 'almost' fit, there are many little fixes (sometimes in combo) that can bring the shape of the inner, then perhaps outer, boot to a point that there's room to be comfortable, yet still have a secure fit. I still blame the Snowboard companies, though. We're STUCK with faux ski-boot/faux-mountaineer/faux-tele boots for our choices in Plastic Boots (this, even with Northwave's resurrection=-=As that boot was originally from a Mountaineer shell, circa 1989), with little thought put to Toe-box area/width [outside of what Skier's dictate], Heel-hold down, Heel shock absorption, or Cuff rotation/articulation/canting. That's MY List of 'IMPROVEMENT AREAS' that have yet to be ADDRESSED by a boot-builder.  This is why I'm excited with Dodge Boots, as they can FIX THIS CRAP, provided someone has the Knowledge/$$, and is willing to look 20 yrs. ahead. With my leaving Stratton to try to raise my kids, I lost a lot of contacts with those who had money and passion. But, perhaps, someone here can roll this snowball where it needs to go. Or, not. Some of the users here LIKE foot Pain...

 

[kawiboy]

I've sat with them in my house now for a little while. I just need to ride them. They're actually somewhat decent after walking around a little. Got 1 stupid pressure point on top of my left foot but my right has even pressure throughout. And I definitely wouldn't cut anything in the boot. Why someone would physically cut a new pair of boots is beyond me (I get why but still). Thanks for the input. I just need to get to a bootfitter.

[kawiboy]

So how do I find a boot fitter? I googled hardboot fitter and didn't get any results. Do I just contact my local ski/snowboard shop?

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

15 hours ago, kawiboy said:

So how do I find a boot fitter? I googled hardboot fitter and didn't get any results. Do I just contact my local ski/snowboard shop?

Ask around at a few ski-shops first. Note whether they cater to Racers, or are just selling 'whatever'..Dick's sports isn't a likely good bet.  Don't get hustled into doing a 'boot fix'; ask about just 'how' they handle YOUR situation. Should it come the point where they've spent +- half an hour to explain/show how they would fix a given issue, be nice enough to tip the Tech. But, if it's a 'hurry-up+fixit' approach, move on. One thing to consider is how they will fit the toe box (Ski Racer's Fit is really SNUG, and, NO, that is not what ya want!), as YOU as a Snowboarder will up on Tippy-toes every-other-turn! Can your liners be heat molded? Do they have an Air-Convection oven (and do they know how to use it!?), or are going reach for a heat-gun (NO! that isn't right!)?! What footbeds do they sell? Can they back those with some kind of fit guarantee?  So, go in with Eyes Open, and be sure to poke around. Ask for customer references, too. Recall, too, that your situation is likely a 'rare event' for most fitters (there aren't too many Hardboot Riders out there..), so an experienced fitter is a better bet (but an overly opinionated one isn't always better! Some Skier's don't get it.). Note, I didn't say 'go to a snowboard shop', snowboard goods are disposable, and the Sales Crew knows only how to kick crap out the door. It's marketed that-a-way, millenial consumerism.. 

[Beckmann AG]

As mentioned previously, the tendency is for most boots to be sold large. Therefore, the average boot fitter is going to have more experience adding padding, than in making space.

In the interest of resolving your apparent fit issue remotely, provide a few photos:

1. Drone's eye view of the toes of your larger foot, looking forward from above your kneecap.

2. Same view of the heel bone area, looking down along the Achilles tendon, shot from maybe 6" directly behind your knee.

3. The liner toe area, especially toward the great toe side.

4. The liner heel area.

That should help to determine a better path forward. 

 

As to fitter finding, ask your local ski club who they use.

They should have an inside line on who might be inclined to laugh with you, and not at you, should you relate the contents of this thread during your appointment.

 

[kawiboy]

I'll be at drill for army all weekend but I still need to call out local shop for a boot fitter. However, after wearing the boots around the house I think they'll fit snugly perfectly once I go from r a few rides. So bring on the damn snow! I'll let you guys know once I find a boot fitter for advice.

[philw]

Snow is what you want. I have once or twice put my boots on in my house in the summer,  for whatever reason, and they never feel great. In a resort, I put them on in the morning and then forget about them - I'm the guy in the bar at 22:00 still wearing my boots (and not in "walk" mode, which is a complexity my life doesn't need).

Translation: it'll probably be fine.

[kawiboy]

Philw, you're absolutely right, I need the damn snow. The local ski shop says they have 2 certified boot fitters. I'm hoping to just bring the boots in and have them custom heat mold the liners to fit them for me. Is there any real difference in just wearing them in vs actual heat molding?

Edited October 18, 2017 by kawiboy

[big mario]

2 hours ago, kawiboy said:

Is there any real difference in just wearing them in vs actual heat molding?

a Shitload less pain

[Corey]

Wait; UPZ boots aren't heat-moldable.  Maybe the magic gel softens and conforms faster?  

[kawiboy]

Direct quote from UPZs faq section.

Self-Mold – this means that the flo in the liner will mold to your foot just by riding in the boots.  After a day on the slope the flo will mold to your foot shape.

Custom Heat Mold – this means that the inside portion of the flo liner can be heated using a system like Salomon Heat Sticks.

[kawiboy]

3 hours ago, big mario said:

a Shitload less pain

Well, sounds like heat foldable then.

[Corey]

Hmm, didn't know that!  My foot attempted to mold to the UPZ liner.  I suffered for 3 partial days before giving up.  

[Beckmann AG]

All boot liners will submit to heat, some more so than others.

Back in the day, manufacturers relied on the formula ( (correct size+1)+98.6f + time= "comfort").

I've had a number of clients that just wanted a quick pass of the heat gun on the toes of a thermo form liner, and then they were happy to ski then into shape.

flo foam/gel/whatever gets loose with heat, and tight with cold.

So, if you install a cold foot in a cold liner, the gel packs will chew on your ankles like a hungry rat when you hit the snow.

If you want to improve things prior to snowfall, heat each liner in turn inside and out with hot air, then wear them around the clubhouse with your choice of sock until they cool. Repeat three or four times, and you're on your way.

 

[kawiboy]

I'll let everyone know how the heat process goes.