Personal journey through StrongLifts 5x5

[breeseomatic]

I just finished my first week of Stronglifts from the very beginning.  My background is as an amateur competitive cyclist turned crossfitter, turned weightlifter.  I had plans in 2011 to train for competitive weightlifting, aiming for the 2017 Pan America Weightlifting competition in the Senior Division.  Vital stats at my prime in 2011 were 148lb body weight, 145lb snatch, 195 C&J, 295 deadlift and 215 squat.  These are respectable globo-gym numbers pound for pound, but nothing competitive.  I'm also 5'9" with long limbs and a short torso, so not even close to the correct proportions to lift anything heavy.

After a particularly traumatizing life event, I gave up on a lot of fitness based activities, took up smoking again, and started to drink a LOT more alcohol.  My fitness slowly declined up to a few years ago then I started mountain biking more and quit those bad habits.  I've been struggling with various weightlifting programs since then, getting on Takano's program, then ditching that because it was too much duration and too technically difficult for my current skill level, Waxman's programming but quit that for one reason or another.  I've had great success with Wendler 5-3-1 because it was super simple to follow, but also incredibly boring and it took a while to get in and out of the garage gym.  

I first heard of StrongLifts 5x5 through Corey in this thread:
2017-2018 season prep thread 

It looked interesting after some investigation, I was concerned about the really low initial starting weight, but I think that the really fast ramp up on the first progressive loading cycle will address that and also allow anyone to achieve some sort of technical proficiency.  Plus you really shouldn't be able to injure yourself squatting 45lbs or benching 45 lbs incorrectly.  Hopefully most of the program users are using support channels to improve their form via photos, video and in person coaching.  For me, it really feels like a waste of time as I could probably start at the body weight squat, but this is about following a specified program, not the Joe Breese Roll Your Own Program.  I did make one small adjustment on Workout #2 and that was to increase the squat to #65 as that is my normal warmup, get the blood flowing weight,  I use the barbell only weight for dynamic warmups, and I just couldn't bring myself to put some tiny 2.5# plates on the side.  Sorry, couldn't do it, had to add 10lb bumpers to make it look like I was doing something meaningful.  Also deadlift started at 95# since I'm not going to put numerous tiny weights on a bar that is 5# shy of an easy to load bar.

My initial impressions are:
StrongLifts 5x5 is a good program for the person with NO experience what-so-ever, in fact you need very little to start it in your home, and this allow the lifter to slowly acquire more weights as they get stronger.  All that is needed to start is a barbell, clamps, rack, bench, 2x 25lbs plates, 2x 10lb plates, 4x 5lb plates, 2x 2.5lbs plates. 

The exercises are easy to execute and complete in a short amount of time, especially in the early stages, later on I can see this taking upwards of 90 minutes to complete.

Obviously nutrition is going to be a large part of your gains or lack thereof.  I was once a very pro-vegetarian person and it was difficult to get the proper ratio of macro nutrients at first.  My advice for anyone with an anti-meat diet is to focus on getting the proper amount of lean proteins to support your body and workout, then control the fats, then see where your carbs are at.  Mostly those can be ignored as they will already be adequate enough, possibly even excessive in a vegetarian diet.

So first week numbers are:

Starting weight 151.8

Squat 45# @ 5x5
Bench 45# @ 5x5
Row 65# @ 5x5

Squat 65# @ 5x5
Press 45# @ 5x5
Deadlift 95# @ 1x5

Squat 70# @ 5x5
Bench 50# @ 5x5
Row 70# @ 5x5

Ending weight 150.4

I'll keep a running log so whoever is interested can follow along.

Edited August 29, 2017 by breeseomatic

[Corey]

Moved to Off-topic.  

I'd bet it feels weird starting at such a low weight after having pretty good numbers before!  My only experience is as someone who thought a 45-lb bar was a little scary.  The small steps hugely improved my confidence.  

I was up to about 75 minutes per workout when I dropped StrongLifts in favor of Wendler 531.  Thinking back, I should have just tried the higher weight, failed, and stepped down as prescribed.  But, my ego got in the way so I took all the rest periods in hopes of successfully lifting the weight in the next set.  The mentally crushing part was that if I lifted that weight successfully, it would go up next time.  

Wendler 531 is too open-ended for my liking.  What are good accessories?  How many?  Should I do push-ups somewhere?  Kroc rows?  One-footed Bosu ball deadlifts while spinning plates on my free foot?  

[breeseomatic]

6 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

I'd bet it feels weird starting at such a low weight after having pretty good numbers before!  My only experience is as someone who thought a 45-lb bar was a little scary.  The small steps hugely improved my confidence. 

Yeah it's weird, but I need to go through the motions.  I can see StrongLifts as being very beneficial to a new lifter, an injured lifter, or a seasoned lifter such as myself coming back after many years off.  My form is still spot on, but the joints are not as strong as my muscles, so squatting far less than my strongest component can handle and well within the limits of my weakest component is a really good, safe, sane start.  I have a weird snap, crackle, pop in my left knee, so working the range of motion with a slow progressive load should make it stronger.

 

6 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

I was up to about 75 minutes per workout when I dropped StrongLifts in favor of Wendler 531.  Thinking back, I should have just tried the higher weight, failed, and stepped down as prescribed.  But, my ego got in the way so I took all the rest periods in hopes of successfully lifting the weight in the next set.  The mentally crushing part was that if I lifted that weight successfully, it would go up next time. 

I plan on taking StrongLifts as far as the app goes.  Going through the failing of reps, deloading, more success or failure, deloading, cutting reps and using smaller increments.  But that's all much further down the road.  How far into the program were you when it started to take 75 minutes?

6 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

One-footed Bosu ball deadlifts while spinning plates on my free foot?  

This could come in very handy for the time when you break a board in two between the bindings, and have to board down a black diamond sheet of ice on your front foot only. 

On a serious note, the main lifts in 5-3-1 is where Wendler says you get the gains.  I saw a lot of the strength gains using 5-3-1 followed by a Crossfit Football workout. A lot of the accessory work was sled/prowler, running, jumping, burpees and fast Olympic style lifts.

[breeseomatic]

Second week completed:

So first week numbers are:

Starting weight 149.1

Squat 75# @ 5x5
Press 50# @ 5x5
Deadlift 105# @ 1x5

Squat 80# @ 5x5
Bench 55# @ 5x5
Row 75# @ 5x5

Squat 85# @ 5x5
Press 55# @ 5x5
Deadlift 115# @ 5x5

Ending weight 150.2

Impressions: 

• The squats are getting more serious, especially since I'm bike riding more on the weekends and riding to work. 
• Overall volume is still pretty low.
• Pretty easy to get in and out quickly  

Forecasts:

• I have a feeling that the super fast liner progression in squats will end in the near future. 
• Deadlifts will continue on the progression for a long time.

[alpinegirl]

Strong lifts 5x5 is interesting. I've grown bored with my lifting regiment and am giving it a go out of curiosity. 

Dropping to 45 on a squat is weird, but I became aware this year that I wasn't actively engaging my glutes and hamstrings to start the concentric portion of the lift. What an oddly humbling experience.

Thank you for sharing the start of your journey. It has gotten me to finally step back and rebuild with better form and technique. I still have the same shoulder crap going on, but we'll see what happens.

[breeseomatic]

7 hours ago, alpinegirl said:

Strong lifts 5x5 is interesting. I've grown bored with my lifting regiment and am giving it a go out of curiosity. 

Dropping to 45 on a squat is weird, but I became aware this year that I wasn't actively engaging my glutes and hamstrings to start the concentric portion of the lift. What an oddly humbling experience.

Thank you for sharing the start of your journey. It has gotten me to finally step back and rebuild with better form and technique. I still have the same shoulder crap going on, but we'll see what happens.

Yeah, dropping to such a low weight is weird if you are used to having some weight on a barbell.  How did you become aware of the lack of glute/hamstring engagement?  Was it different bar positioning, heel rise or did someone comment on your position?  Here's a great blog post and accompanying videos about body proportions and squat position (https://bretcontreras.com/how-femur-length-effects-squat-mechanics/).  We're all built different even though we may be the same height, and some people may get more of a glute/hamstring or quad workout from squatting purely based on how their proportions are.

[breeseomatic]

Third week completed:

Starting weight 150.2

Squat 90# @ 5x5
Bench 60# @ 5x5
Row 80# @ 5x5

Squat 95# @ 5x5
Press 60# @ 5x5
Deadlift 125# @ 1x5

Squat 100# @ 5x5
Bench 65# @ 5x5
Row 85# @ 5x5
Ending weight 150.2

Thoughts: 

I initially thought that squats were going to be tough, but that was my impression after a particularly difficult bike ride last week.  I've re-learned a few things, one is to go for a spirited bike ride immediately after a lifting session, not the day after leaving very little recovery for the next days lifts.

Overall volume is still pretty low.  I'm fighting every urge to max out on reps on the last set.

It's still pretty easy to get in and out quickly, my total time from lights on to lights out in my garage gym is under an hour.

Forecasts:

I'm now thinking that the rows will be the limiting lift for me as the last rows I'm starting to feel, but the other exercises are still well within my perceived ability.

[alpinegirl]

The lack of glute/hamstring engagement was realized out of self observation. This is a scary thing to rely on, but I have mastered the "stay away from me" glare in the gym. The best comment I have ever received was to keep my head up and look at my own face while squatting. Simple and effective.

I have been able to muscle my way up to some respectable weights, however my one legged lifts were lacking and if I was honest with myself, my lifts were becoming asymmetric (squats and deadlifts especially). I have been compensating for some inflexibility as well as a lack of stability.

My understanding of protecting my joints while lifting heavy things is that it all has to magically work together. I want my body to be better balanced such that even if my glutes don't actively move the weight at the start of the lift, I still want them engaged in order to help stabilize and protect my spine and knees. 

It's a different focus. The lift feels more controlled. I still love how much a barbell squat works all the stabilizing muscles.

[breeseomatic]

On 9/11/2017 at 6:27 PM, alpinegirl said:

The best comment I have ever received was to keep my head up and look at my own face while squatting. Simple and effective.

That's the preferred technique for olympic lifting as you need a reference point to maintain balance in such an explosive effort. 

For slow lifts like plain old squats and deadlifts you can injure yourself with that technique while lifting max loads.  I find it best to keep your head in a neutral position like you have a neck brace on.  Your sight line will change as you move through the squat position and that's fine as it's not a fast movement.  Craning your neck to maintain a forward faced position might work out, and it might not, it all depends on your proportions and if you introduce strain or unnecessary muscle tension.  Not craning your neck 100% always reduces muscle tension and possibilities for strain.  But that's just my observation.  Mark Rippetoe echoes this in his book Starting Strength a quick good image search on "rippetoe squat form" should produce some "optimal" form images, contrast that with an image search of olympic lifting and you can see a very different technique being used.  

I believe that squatting and being quad dominant or glute dominant has everything to do with proportion and position and almost nothing to do with "active engagement" whatever that means.  You can try to engage muscles at the bottom of the squat, but the reality is that they will fire in the order that works best for your proportions and position.  By "actively engaging" certain muscles on the down (eccentric portion) you are changing your starting body position, ending position in the eccentric phase and possibly weight distribution at the start of the concentric phase.

It's an interesting topic, if you have still photos, compare them to the google image results and also the videos I linked above.

[breeseomatic]

Fourth week completed:

Starting weight 150.2

Squat 105# @ 5x5
Press 65# @ 5x5
Deadlift 135# @ 1x5

Squat 110# @ 5x5
Bench 70# @ 5x5
Row 90# @ 5x5

Squat 115# @ 5x5
Press 70# @ 5x5
Deadlift 145# @ 1x5

Ending weight 150.8

Impressions: 

The squats portion is taking longer as I'm using the full three minutes of recovery time which is pushing the total training time to just over an hour.  No real biking this week to get in the way of training. 

Overall volume is still pretty low and fighting the urge to max out reps on the very last set.  I have not paid for the upgrade version of the app and I wonder if their accessory lifts offered in the upgrade guides you towards doing this.

Muscle definition is starting to show through my layer of body fat.

Forecasts:

None

[Corey]

13 hours ago, breeseomatic said:

Overall volume is still pretty low and fighting the urge to max out reps on the very last set.  I have not paid for the upgrade version of the app and I wonder if their accessory lifts offered in the upgrade guides you towards doing this.

Muscle definition is starting to show through my layer of body fat.

I did get the upgrade for the 5x5 app.  It adds: add-on is assistance exercises, a warm up calculator (lift this, then that, then...), a plate calculator (what plates to get 150 lbs on the bar?), the ability to drop volume (3x5/3x3/1x3), and exporting to CSV.  No additional volume. By the time I was maxing out my 5x5 sets, I couldn't fathom adding any more volume.  Just thinking of failing those 5x5 OH presses of 80 lbs makes me angry!  Then one day I made it - only to realize that I then had to do the same thing with 85 lbs in 2 days.  Ugh...  

Congrats on the progress!  

[alpinegirl]

Great progress! I was awaiting your update.

 

And hey, no arguments from my end. If I am honest with you, there is no mirror in front of the rack at my gym. At that time in my lifting, I was even more wonky. My head was pitched downwards towards the floor, effectively pulling my spine out of alignment.  Now, ten years later, yes, my maximum loads have a downcast look. My neck is likely closer to neutral. I also tend to converse with peoples knees so it comes naturally to me. 

I agree that body proportion has the greatest influence on squat form and muscle dominance along with bar position. Always learning, always refining. The most important thing gleaned from focusing on simply, "feeling it in my rear" at the start of the lift is that it keeps me from pulling to one side.

Mark Rippetoe raises some interesting points. There are of course a million people calling it all dangerous bs,, but I have come to accept that that is how the lifting world is. I figure that either my body can, or it won't. A max lift is not where I am go into change my form or technique. And fortunately I can add those tiny 2.5lb weights to the barbell each day that I lift. 

I hear a lot of shit being said in the gym. Frankly I don't understand doing 18 different exercises for legs on leg day but never doing a barbell squat.

[breeseomatic]

Fifth week completed:

Starting weight 150.8

Squat 120# @ 5x5
Bench 75# @ 5x5
Row 95# @ 5x5

Squat 125# @ 5x5
Press 75# @ 5x5
Deadlift 155# @ 1x5

Squat 130# @ 5x5
Bench 80# @ 5x5
Row 100# @ 5x5
Ending weight 151.4

Thoughts: 

Squats are getting tougher as they are approaching my bodyweight.  Valsava maneuver has been a savior.  On some reps, I don't get full inhalation and the squats are harder to complete.  I'm using the full three minute rest periods for squats.  I upgraded the Stronglifts 5x5 app and incorporated their warm up sets and some accessory work into the training.  So far just some knees to elbows, pull ups, push ups and calf raises for accessory work.  Their warm up sets are much shorter than mine, so I'm able to finish a bit earlier and have time to incorporate some accessory work.  So far, this is the best $9.99 I've spent on a lifting program.  The phone app really makes it simple to follow.  Also, I've changed my diet to a more Keto centric diet with intermittent fasting.  It seems to be working out for me, I'm not counting fat, just limiting my protein intake to 4-6 oz per meal filling with fats and as many vegetables I can eat. I haven't had any real carb cravings except for seeing a box of donuts in the office.  I ate one, it felt good immediately and then 30 minutes later my stomach started to grumble and I was gassy for the rest of the day.

Forecasts:

I'm going to want knee sleeves soon.

[breeseomatic]

Sixth week completed:

Starting weight 151.4

Squat 135# @ 5x5
Press 80# @ 5,5,5,5,4
Deadlift 165# @ 1x5

Squat 140# @ 5x5
Bench 85# @ 5x5
Row 105# @ 5x5

Squat 145# @ 5x5
Press 80# @ 5x5
Deadlift 175# @ 1x5

Ending weight 153.2

Impressions: 

The squats portion is getting serious.  After upgrading to the premium version of the app, I'm not taking as long to warm up.  I was over thinking my warm-ups and tiring out by lifting too much. 

Overall volume is just about right for me now with the squat weights.  I can feel the squats on the in between days and recovery is good since its not blasting my legs, I'm not biking as much and I'm making more of an effort to sleep and eat higher quality food.  I too failed at 80# overhead press like Corey.  I'm struggling with my garage gym setup as I just inherited a squat cage and can't lift overhead inside of it.  So I'm either cleaning my press weight from the floor which is a waste of energy or I'm sitting on a bench inside the cage and pressing that way, which is not ideal.  I could use my old squat rack, but that just seems silly and it's going away soon.  One alternative is to weld on a barbell cup on the outside of the rack at the height i need for my overhead presses.  That will be a fun afternoon project with the welder.

Hook grip is really important on the rows and warm-up deadlifts.  Switching to mixed grip for the one working set helps with lifting.  I really want to add a second working set of deadlifts to the mix, I don't feel as if there is enough deadlifting.

Forecasts:

Overhead press will be the first of the lifts to fail me, followed by the Pendlay rows.  I'm going to order a nice weightlifting belt and knee sleeves now that I'll be squatting over my bodyweight by the end of this week.

[Corey]

I'm taking your advice from before, and it looks like you should too: Eat more. Your weight is pretty stable, which will be tough to stay ahead of the growth necessary for this program. 

I'm back on 5x5 and eating lots. Going well so far. I lost strength while not eating enough and doing 531. Eating is probably the major factor there. 

Keep up the good work! 

[Technick]

5th week from going back to lifting weights, I've started with the Stronglifts App and program but went back to "Jefit" witch I used in the past, I prefer this one. I modified the Stronglifts program a bit, my lower back didn't like the deadlifts and had to take a couple of days off. :(   I still do a "Day1", "Day2" program alternating 2 to 4 times a week. 

Here is my program:

Day1:

------------------------------------------

Rowing: 5 minutes (warmup)

Barbell Squat: 5x8

Bench Press: 5x8

Chin Up: 5xMax

Air Bike: 2x Max

 

Day2:

----------------------------------------

Rowing: 5 minutes (warmup)

Barbell Squat: 5x8

Shoulder Press: 5x8

Glute Kickback: 2x25

Seated Leg Tucks: 2x20

[breeseomatic]

4 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

I'm taking your advice from before, and it looks like you should too: Eat more. Your weight is pretty stable, which will be tough to stay ahead of the growth necessary for this program. 

I'm back on 5x5 and eating lots. Going well so far. I lost strength while not eating enough and doing 531. Eating is probably the major factor there. 

Keep up the good work! 

Yep, the hardest mirror to hold up is the one facing you, correct?  Thanks for suggesting I look into my diet, I'll be looking more closely at it. 

It appears the first week or two there was a drop in weight, then a slow progression up.  I suspect the weight loss is mostly water weight as SL 5x5 coincides with my no-carb diet change.  And I'm intermittent fasting for the past few weeks: 20 hour fasts with 4 hour eating periods at night, immediately after my training session.  So far it's been going well.  I attribute my missed lift to wasting energy (cleaning from the floor first), not being fully rested (late nights researching pH balancing a keto diet, hormone stimulation, regulation, amino acid knowledge) and implementation (figuring out how much to eat of what and when).  I think the system I have is getting more and more dialed in.  I have the grocery list on auto pilot, meals are about the same each day and I can easily go through the workday without a meal break. 

My shoulders are not that strong to begin with, I definitely have favored exercises that don't require lifting over my head in the past.  It's a weakness and I need to address that somehow.  I'm wondering how quickly I will stall out on SL 5x5 on the press and if it makes sense to micro load the bar and stay on the 5x5 rep scheme and advance slowly by completing sets or go through a failure/success cycle.  At the end of the month, it's still the same progression just a different way to get there.  But that is changing the program and not trusting or experiencing what it can do.  So I will continue to do the program as the SL 5x5 program is written, but wanted to express my concern and thought process.

2 hours ago, Technick said:

5th week from going back to lifting weights, I've started with the Stronglifts App and program but went back to "Jefit" witch I used in the past, I prefer this one. I modified the Stronglifts program a bit, my lower back didn't like the deadlifts and had to take a couple of days off. :(   I still do a "Day1", "Day2" program alternating 2 to 4 times a week. 

I'm going to offer up some (unwanted) opinion here:

Modifying the program so early on is where you had problems.  Don't modify the program, stick with it post your results, use the SL 5x5 forum for support.

If your back hurts with deadlifts under SL 5x5 after 5 weeks maybe there is a massive leverage issue happening via anatomy or bad technique or too much weight too fast for you, or all three are happening.   What weight did you start out at?  It should have been about 90 lbs and you should be at 150-ish DL in week 5.  That's not very much weight for a guy, unless you are under 120 lbs starting weight.  I would look into your technique and posture.  If it's spot on, then you just have a weak back and you should just go through the failure/success progression as the program prescribes.

Your program does not address your weakness in deadlift.  Posterior chain strength in compound movements is at the core of a lot of strength programs from SL 5x5 to Starting Strength to Wendler 5-3-1.

Depending on your warm-up routine/sequence, you could be hurting your lifting performance.  There are studies that show static stretching reduces output, cardio before lifting reduces output, and the last is what I experienced: ramping up too slowly to your working weight reduces output.

Deciding to take a few days off is not a bad thing, I've taken up to three days off on SL 5x5 because I needed the recovery time to complete the next workout.

[Corey]

Joe, don't be afraid to fail and to deload.  That was my big failing with Stronglifts.  That ratcheting up and back down of weight is pretty core to many programs.  You can't reasonably expect to add 5 lbs every 2 days for the rest of your life.  

Re. Eating: I've been watching the 'Barbell Medicine' series on YouTube by a couple of MDs that are also Starting Strength coaches.  They focus a lot on nutrition and having excess calories to give the body the fuel needed to rebuild itself between sessions.  It changed my attitude.  You can cut fat fairly easily, but building muscle is hard.  Bias the nutrition to add fat and muscle, then cut down to whatever body fat you want.  

Nick, I'm with Joe.  It looks like you're presenting good numbers for other lifts, so there's something going on with your deadlift technique that's holding you back.  For me, I wasn't bracing enough and was allowing my spine to curve.  Now I feel like I put out as much energy into stabilizing my core as my legs and back does while deadlifting.  I did add a 4" belt a little after I was lifting my body weight.  That makes that bracing feel a little more stable.  Same effort, but a little more stable for the same effort.  

My abused knees really don't like 5x5.  I just cut volume down to 3x5 this morning, which matches the Starting Strength model.  I'll let the weight come up naturally with the Stronglifts program.  

[Technick]

I always listen to advice with an open mind but don't follow them if they dont feel right to me... :) Yes my main weakness is and has always been my lower back, 20 years of working at a desk, in front of a computer is not very good for posture and for my back but I'm slowly getting it back with exercice, stretching and foam rolling. I removed the deadlift from my program only temporarily so I can progressively get my strenght back. My lower back gets plenty of work for now with the squats, I will put it back later. I've squated 225lbs a couple years ago, I should be able to go back there with time, I just want to avoid injuries, my snowboarding season is to important to rush into it. I got back pain from the first training I did, no back pain since.

I agree with Corey about eating and calories, I don't think it's a good idea to cut calories and fasting when you want to gain muscle mass and strenght, If you hit a plateau it might be one of the reasons. Just my 2 cents... ;)

I was thinking about using a belt for the squats but I'm going to wait until I get closer to 200lbs on the bar.

 

Here is my first training: 2017-08-30

----------------------------------------------------

Workout Logs

 Rowing  
Duration : 00:05:00
 

Barbell Squat

Set 1 : 85x5
Set 2 : 85x5
Set 3 : 85x5
Set 4 : 85x5
Set 5 : 85x5

  Barbell Shoulder Press

Set 1 : 45x5
Set 2 : 45x7
Set 3 : 65x5
Set 4 : 65x5
Set 5 : 65x5

  Barbell Deadlift

Set 1 : 45x5
Set 2 : 95x8

  Dumbbell Side Bend

Set 1 : 35x12
Set 2 : 45x12

  Side Bridge  N/A

Set 1 : 00:01:00
Set 2 : 00:01:00 

-----------------------------------

Last training: 2017-09-30

 Rowing  
Duration : 00:04:00

  Barbell Squat

Set 1 : 45x8
Set 2 : 95x8
Set 3 : 105x7
Set 4 : 115x7
Set 5 : 125x8

  Barbell Bench Press

Set 1 : 95x8
Set 2 : 105x8
Set 3 : 115x7
Set 4 : 125x6
Set 5 : 135x6

  Chin Up 

Set 1 : 0x7
Set 2 : 0x7
Set 3 : 0x6
Set 4 : 0x6
Set 5 : 10x5

  Air Bike  50

Set 1 : 50 Lap/Rep
Set 2 : 50 Lap/Rep

---------------------------------------------------

Shoulder press:

Set 1 : 70x5
Set 2 : 75x7
Set 3 : 80x6
Set 4 : 90x6
Set 5 : 100x6

---------------------------------------------

Squats at 125lbs are still pretty easy and will be adding a little more weight next time (this afternoon), back still solid, no pain.

[Corey]

1 hour ago, Technick said:

I always listen to advice with an open mind but don't follow them if they dont feel right to me... :)

Haha, good choice!  

I'm with you on the desk job thing.  I was truly sedentary for an embarrassing amount of time, aside from snowboarding a few days a season.  Back pain was a near-daily occurrence.  Once I got my deadlift and squat forms straightened out (pun!) and lifted for a little over a year, I was and remain 99% free of back pain.  

[breeseomatic]

5 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

Joe, don't be afraid to fail and to deload.  That was my big failing with Stronglifts.  That ratcheting up and back down of weight is pretty core to many programs.  You can't reasonably expect to add 5 lbs every 2 days for the rest of your life.  

Re. Eating: I've been watching the 'Barbell Medicine' series on YouTube by a couple of MDs that are also Starting Strength coaches.  They focus a lot on nutrition and having excess calories to give the body the fuel needed to rebuild itself between sessions.  It changed my attitude.  You can cut fat fairly easily, but building muscle is hard.  Bias the nutrition to add fat and muscle, then cut down to whatever body fat you want.  

Nick, I'm with Joe.  It looks like you're presenting good numbers for other lifts, so there's something going on with your deadlift technique that's holding you back.  For me, I wasn't bracing enough and was allowing my spine to curve.  Now I feel like I put out as much energy into stabilizing my core as my legs and back does while deadlifting.  I did add a 4" belt a little after I was lifting my body weight.  That makes that bracing feel a little more stable.  Same effort, but a little more stable for the same effort.  

My abused knees really don't like 5x5.  I just cut volume down to 3x5 this morning, which matches the Starting Strength model.  I'll let the weight come up naturally with the Stronglifts program.  

I'm not afraid of it, it's just that I feel it's a failure and it's happening 6 weeks into the program.  With other programs I've used in the past, the progression was much slower and the starting weights much higher and reaching a failed set was something that didn't happen so quickly; it's just a radical departure to what I'm used to.  Failing a set to me in a linear progression program means to much, too quick: back-off, slow your roll and try not to let your ego determine your working weight.

Thanks for the Youtube channel, I'm definitely interested in reading/hearing what people with a lot more experience have to say about such a nuanced subject.  Most of my material is from t-nation and bodybuilding with a little experience and the desire for repeatable results thrown in for good measure.

 

1 hour ago, Technick said:

I always listen to advice with an open mind but don't follow them if they dont feel right to me... :) Yes my main weakness is and has always been my lower back, 20 years of working at a desk, in front of a computer is not very good for posture and for my back but I'm slowly getting it back with exercice, stretching and foam rolling. I removed the deadlift from my program only temporarily so I can progressively get my strenght back. My lower back gets plenty of work for now with the squats, I will put it back later. I've squated 225lbs a couple years ago, I should be able to go back there with time, I just want to avoid injuries, my snowboarding season is to important to rush into it. I got back pain from the first training I did, no back pain since.

I agree with Corey about eating and calories, I don't think it's a good idea to cut calories and fasting when you want to gain muscle mass and strenght, If you hit a plateau it might be one of the reasons. Just my 2 cents... ;)

I was thinking about using a belt for the squats but I'm going to wait until I get closer to 200lbs on the bar.

Some key phrases that cause me some pause or I feel that they need some clarification and my comments:

"I removed the dead lift from my program only temporarily so I can progressively get my strength back"
If you're rolling your own program, you should incorporate your weakest lift and only do the things that you are deficient in.  But that's just my opinion without having seen you lift or worked out with you at all.

"My lower back gets plenty of work for now with the squats, I will put it back later"
Your lower back should not be very active in the squats, especially with 125lbs for 8 reps.  I urge you to post some video of your form for or review and compare it privately with other known good techniques.  You may be folding your torso forward to much to compensate for an anatomical geometry issue, you can correct for this with stance and bar placement.  Or you could be squatting with the weight primarily on your fore foot, or squatting in flat shoes instead of a weightlifting shoe, or you're raising your hips first and your shins are not in the proper placement at the bottom of the squat.  There's lots of reasons and they should be corrected as much as possible so you don't feel as if your lower back got a workout with light weight squats for only 8 reps.

"I've squatted 225lbs a couple years ago, I should be able to go back there with time"
There are some acceptable ratios of squat to press to dead lift based on body weight or a reference lift.  I've aimed for body weight just to pack as much power into a smaller package since I'm a bit on the petite size: 2x dead lift, 1.5x squat, 1.25x bench and .85x press.  I'm not sure how that compares to others.  If you were 150# and squatted 225#, then you should be able to dead lift 300#.  Here is a really good breakdown on the lifts based on a reference lift: https://www.t-nation.com/training/know-your-ratios-destroy-weaknesses

"I was thinking about using a belt for the squats but I'm going to wait until I get closer to 200lbs on the bar."
Go by body weight percentage, once you are squatting over your body weight for a proper 5x5, properly using a belt could help a lot.  But if you're 220# now and not completing a 5x5 set adding a belt will not help you in my opinion.

"I don't think it's a good idea to cut calories and fasting"
I agree, and that is not what I'm doing.  Consuming enough calories and fasting are not mutually exclusive.  It's entirely possible to eat all the calories needed to support a weight lifting program in a condensed eating time window.  By definition, we fast when we sleep and break that fast with our first meal.  My first meal just happens to be really late and my last, really early; I may have to widen the time window to ensure that I am consuming enough calories as my GI tract can only hold so much volume and process it so fast.  I want the window to be as small as possible for the hormonal and scheduling benefits.  Also, my food choices support the eating pattern.  It would be really difficult for me to go 20 hours without eating if I was carbohydrate based and my body ran primarily on glycogen.  As it is right now, I'm pretty good with a 20/4 cycle, but may need to go to 18/6 if I start failing lifts because of a nutritional volume/absorption issue or maybe not as I could be on the far end of the adaptation cycle and my muscles are producing the proteins necessary to use fats as a fuel source.

Looking at your rep scheme, it looks like Fuckarounditis.  There doesn't appear to be a method, just lift some weights for 5 maybe 8 reps.  It will be difficult determine if there is a legitimate plateau.  But that's just from two different workouts 6 weeks apart.

 

Disclaimer:  I'm only offering my opinion/perspective on what you typed, as you did with what I typed.  I'm not claiming I know more than anyone else, just merely sharing information I know or found.  All comments I made should be taken with the most sincere and well intention tone possible.

 

[Corey]

Joe, you said 'nuanced'. You're going to love Dr. Fiegenbaum (sp?) of Barbell Medicine. ;) That'll be funny once you watch a few and see how often he says 'nuanced'. 

[Technick]

Ok.... I'm just sharing what I'm doing to get back into shape, maybe share some ideas, not to get my way of doing things analysed.

I'll explain what you dont seem to understand, my "Fuckarounditis" rep scheme... It's based on Anthony Ellis "Gaining Mass" Program, for squats its 2x12 warmup, bar only, 4 set, from 8 to 2 reps increasing weight each time, then a "burnout" set with the first weight, max rep and in superset with leg extension machine, to max. The idea is to increase weight progressively each set, up to very heavy (1-2 reps max)... There is a whole book on his program including nutrition, information on hormones etc. A friend of mine used his program to break his "Stuck as a skinny guy" problem. He was 6'5" 165lbs and try all sorts of body building programs but nothing worked, now he is at 235lbs... I had great gains with this program before, I know the program and like it. I lowered the set count (no burnout or superset) and dont go to very heavy because, with this program (Modified Stronglift), I do legs every other day... With the Anthony Ellis program it's once per week, so I dont get as much rest.

I do what I do and I'm fine with it! If I want advice I will asked for it!!

 

 

[breeseomatic]

2 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

Joe, you said 'nuanced'. You're going to love Dr. Fiegenbaum (sp?) of Barbell Medicine. ;) That'll be funny once you watch a few and see how often he says 'nuanced'. 

I've been listening for the past few hours while working (at my stand-up desk) staring at code and noticed that.  Everything they say is "nuanced".  I'm really enjoying the content of the channel, thanks!

1 hour ago, Technick said:

Ok.... I'm just sharing what I'm doing to get back into shape, maybe share some ideas, not to get my way of doing things analysed.

I think it's great to share information, so I want to thank you for sharing.  And I too want to share, that's why I started this thread.  I'm open to having my ideas and beliefs scrutinized for errors, flaws, inaccuracies.  In fact you made a comment about something I wrote and I replied trying to clarify what I meant with my diet and eating pattern to clear up some confusion and assumtions, it's not a big deal to me.  If you don't want your ideas analyzed or commented on then posting them here, in this thread is probably not the best approach.  Anything you post here is up for discussion and/or debate.  I wanted to share my opinions on what is posted.  It's all fair game.  If you wanted, you can tear into what I've posted and point out the flaws, errors, and misunderstandings.  If your information/opinion comes from experience and/or you have good resources, I'm totally open to them.  Corey has shared/posted some amazing resources and I'm 100% investigating them, that is what this thread is about.

1 hour ago, Technick said:

I'll explain what you dont seem to understand, my "Fuckarounditis" rep scheme... It's based on Anthony Ellis "Gaining Mass" Program

The rep scheme still seems like fuckarounditis, your implementation on the last posted workout day doesn't match what you are describing or what most strength and conditioning coaches would prescribe, unless you have an odd/rare medical or structural issue.  If your implementation matches your description, please help me to understand, I can't see it.  Maybe your program is awesome and effective and it could be of benefit to me and others, but I can't understand it as you have described it or as you are showing how you implement it.  That is where the fuckarounditis comments are coming from.

1 hour ago, Technick said:

I do what I do and I'm fine with it! If I want advice I will asked for it!!

I thought that as an intermediate lifter with some experience, moderate performance and knowledge in the subject, I could offer some valuable information to you.  I will refrain from offering advice to you unless asked.

Edited October 3, 2017 by breeseomatic
Fixed a typing/gramatical error

[Corey]

Well, that escalated quickly. It sounds like both of you are interested in helping the other, but are coming from different views. 

The above is one of my biggest complaints about almost every topic today - people get so dug into whatever 'side' they're on that everyone else almost seems silly. Lifting/fitness seems to be especially bad because you can do practically anything and see benefits if you keep at it and eat well. It takes years to see a big change, so it's not like you can try 10 different strategies to see what's best for you. 

However, you can read info from a number of different, but experienced, experts and try to find a program that will give you the end result you were hoping for. For me, that's Stronglifts to start, then I'm going to switch over to some other model after I get past my newbie gains phase. I switched to 531 (a little prematurely) but didn't gain any strength.