The opposite of everything we stand for

[NateW]

I have been riding hard boots exclusively for about 20 years. Except for one day (one!) in a softboot setup, about a decade ago, because I was wondering if Flow bindings would make me hate soft boots any less. (Nope, still hated soft boots.) But, since another decade has passed, another experiment was in order... Last Sunday I rented soft boots and borrowed a friend's board and bindings. I knew Bataleon sounded familiar for some reason, but couldn't remember why. 

And I knew it was going to take some adjustment, but OMG.

WTF.

We rode from the lodge to the base of a lift, he said "what do you think" and I said "the edges don't work."

And he said something about "Triple Base" and I remembered why Bataleon sounded familiar...

https://www.bataleon.com/3bt  <=== That is some weird stuff right there.

I knew soft boots would require big changes, and I knew the board would be softer too, and I knew the edges wouldn't grab the snow like they do on a nice stiff alpine board... But it hadn't occurred to me that the board would ride like a lunch tray until the edge angle was up to 2-3 degrees or so. Maybe it was less but it really felt like 5 degrees. I'd put some pressure on my heels to make a subtle correction, and... nothing... nothing happened until I lifted up my toes. So vague. So sloppy. So slippery.

Strange as that was, it also was actually kind of fun. Modern soft boot/binding stuff actually doesn't suck. I had a good connection to the board, my boots didn't slide forward in the bindings, my heels stayed down in the boots, and nothing broke! And learning to cruise around on a lunch tray was actually kind of fun. But I don't think you could possibly make a snowboard more different from an alpine board.

I might do soft boots again, in much less than a decade, but f**k that Triple Base noise. Never doing that again.

Just thought I'd share.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I hope you were on soft snow!  Here, in the 'Icy East', there are a good number of softboot boards I simply won't ride, as the edging aspect is just Not There. I went through that whole episode with '85-'89 Burtons with the beveled tails (funny, though, as I've kept an Elite, and Cruzer?; but, for Pow/slush days), and have rode/owned only a few boards with any base-bevel since. What you observed is exactly what I've seen in the Industry the last 20 years or so, to varying degrees. Meanwhile, I've gravitated towards boards that CARVE, but also can ride Everywhere. What most good Carvers do, is simply beyond the imaginations of the core of the Softboot crowd. And, the really great Carvers tend to blow the minds of that same group, but, few would admit it.

[Duke]

Almost all of the soft boot rides these days are going to be some type o hybrid camber.  Much of it is just what you like.  Never Summer won't do much other than their Camber Rocker Camber they are so known for.  Some love it and some don't.  Same for Battaleon Triple Base Technology; it is your thing or it isn't (even though that is not really a camber thing).  My own, non-scientific, anecdotal reckoning on this shows that the vast majority....were you to just blindly grab one off the shelf, would be Rocker Camber Rocker.  Even my beloved Fullbag Diamond Blade, which is designed as a groomer carver, has a touch of a hybrid.

I know that many of riders on here look down on and throw jabs at anything other than a traditional, full camber re: softboots, but I think the moral of the story is....don't knock it 'till you try it.   It is likely that you will not like all or even most of them, but I doubt you would hate all of them either. :)  Some are very fun.  I hear ya on the TBT, but it does hold better with some pressure.  it just takes some faith to pull some Gs on it. :)   Not for me but some love it.

I think, were you to try some different soft boot decks, you would find that technology has come a long ways. They can really be fun.

Nothing wrong with trad camber.  But, nothing wrong with a hybrid either.....IF it is something that matches one's style and makes it fun :)  If you are going to compare softboot decks only based on how well they carve and match up to your carving board then....they will never hit the mark.  They are a different animal.  Yes, some can carve groomers well, but they just won't ever match up to a hardboot setup.  They are a different ride, for a different day, and a going for something other than having your head just off the deck during your turns :)  

i would liken it to comparing a Ducati Panigale (hardboot board) to the KTM 450 SFX (softboot board).  Two different beasts with different technologies and I want both; depending on what I am doing that day  :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Duke, most of the alpine boards we are riding aren't full camber either.  The nose and tail are "decambered", which means they engage more quickly and smoothly when you initiate the turn. 

[terekhov]

9 hours ago, NateW said:

I might do soft boots again, in much less than a decade, but f**k that Triple Base noise. Never doing that again.

I have some old pogo overdose 158 ca. 1996 (my first ever pogo out from many), completely "broken in" (I bought it in that state for some small money), so almost without camber and 0.3mm edges left... and - wonder! - she's have that triple base convex geometry on nose and tail - so flat between bindings, but progressively convex'er till ends -- when laying flat - edges at contact points is 1+ mm up. and it carves and rides wonders at that, with great rebound, and i almost love that! never have ridden bataleon, but for my surfy-carvy style riding i see no problem in that layback carve entry-exit of convexed base

[Bobby Buggs]

Rode softboots for the first time in a few years 2 weeks ago, stiff K2 double boa boots Flows and a Rossi 1 Magtec. It was humbling going form one of the best snowboarders on the hill to a lower intermediate. That being said it was still fun after like the 3rd run when I actually started to feel something. I admire softbooters that can rip even more now knowing how hard it is to feel the board and power it up in softboots. I guess if I had the patients to dial in my stance I might ride it more.

[queequeg]

I ride softies occasionally, and have fun doing it. It always takes an adjustment for the first few runs. Awhile back I accidentally forgot my hardboots at the cabin and had to ride softies on what would otherwise have been a ripper carving day and was surprised at how well I could carve on my Arbor A-Frame. I was inspired to try and carve as hard as I could, having seen all the amazing softboot carvers out of Japan, and of course our very own Mr.Knapton. I would definitely prefer my hardboots and a stiff, narrow stick for carving hard but I was surprised at how well I was able to make the a-frame carve, both toe and heelside, it was actually pretty fun. I usually ride softies if the snow is very soft, in powder or when I am riding in super chopped up conditions. I ride flows and malamutes and while they are not horrible there are definitely lots of annoyances involved in riding softies ... one-footing is particularly irritating. But I like my softies in the trees and in deep snow for sure. I'm planning on making some modifications to the malamutes to make them more comfortable and easier to slip in and out of the flows.

Edited March 29, 2017 by queequeg

[lordmetroland]

39 minutes ago, queequeg said:

I'm planning on making some modifications to the malamutes to make them more comfortable and easier to slip in and out of the flows.

Got this same setup and would be verrrrrrrrry interested to know what you do and the resulting outcome. I want to love the Flows, but have struggled to capitalize on their "easy-in" promise. I'm either gullible, idiotic or ham-fisted. Odds are pretty even on all three.

[queequeg]

13 minutes ago, lordmetroland said:

Got this same setup and would be verrrrrrrrry interested to know what you do and the resulting outcome. I want to love the Flows, but have struggled to capitalize on their "easy-in" promise. I'm either gullible, idiotic or ham-fisted. Odds are pretty even on all three.

I'm planning on shaving a bit of material off of the soles of the boots, and seeing if I can smooth up engagement for entering the binding. Otherwise: I found that I can get in and out pretty quick if I make sure that the rear straps are somewhat loose while on the lift. Then I can slide in the foot, lift/lock the highback and crank the straps a few times pretty quick once I'm on the ground. The other problem I want to fix is a design flaw in the binding: the cable tends to get caught on some of the lower binding plastics and prevents you from being able to close the binding without first moving the cable (this is a problem on the NX2's I have anyway). Gonna try and fix that too.

 

Insofar as comfort goes, I feel like the boot needs more volume filled around the heel for me and just generally throughout the boot. I'm going to sacrifice an old pair of thermoflex liners for that purpose. Cut 'em up and put pieces in strategic areas to fill volume and soften contact with the hard areas of the boot.

Edited March 29, 2017 by queequeg

[NateW]

13 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Duke, most of the alpine boards we are riding aren't full camber either.  The nose and tail are "decambered", which means they engage more quickly and smoothly when you initiate the turn. 

My main board is a Donek with a decambered nose and tail, and it's my favorite board ever.

It responds to subtle amounts of edge pressure. Between the bindings, the edge works like (I believe) an edge should work. Bataleon's diagram seems to show a flat cross-section between the bindings (flat, as viewed from the nose or tail), but it really did not feel that way. It felt like the edges between the bindings were completely off the snow - maybe only by a millimeter or two, but still... putting weight on my toes or heels didn't do anything until I lifted the other side of the board.

Honestly it was a fun challenge. For one day. But not two.  :-)

 

[Duke]

9 hours ago, NateW said:

My main board is a Donek with a decambered nose and tail, and it's my favorite board ever.

It responds to subtle amounts of edge pressure. Between the bindings, the edge works like (I believe) an edge should work. Bataleon's diagram seems to show a flat cross-section between the bindings (flat, as viewed from the nose or tail), but it really did not feel that way. It felt like the edges between the bindings were completely off the snow - maybe only by a millimeter or two, but still... putting weight on my toes or heels didn't do anything until I lifted the other side of the board.

Honestly it was a fun challenge. For one day. But not two.  :-)

 

I'm with you my friend :)  TBT not my thing either.  My point was to say that you haven't be on softies in quite some time and softies now come in an entire quiver of cambers and edge profiles.  There's something for everyone.  Carving-wise they will never compete with your Donek setup.....but there are still many, many fun soft setups and I think you should try a few more and get one or two soft setups for you personal quiver.  For example:  I see you are in the PNW and, therefore, blessed with pow that many on this forum can only dream about.  snag a 6 foot Dupraz D1 and some Solomon Malamutes and you will think you are in heaven.  Just a nice, fluid, surf day to contrast with your precision, full on G, carve days. :) Even raucous chunder is a bliss on that board :)  A K2, full-on rockered, Ultradream is so fun to surf on slush days!  The rest of the season now will have many afternoons where it warms up and people, particularly skiers, start to abandon the slopes to go home or in the lodge attempting to find a miracle wax to make it work for them.  You would be getting lipstick on both ears your smile would be so big as you surf down in total bliss!!  Different rides from your Donek.  No competition for it on packed groomers (both still fun there BTW) but opening an entire new spectrum for you in riding opportunities.

 Quiver up my friend!!!  Quiver up! :)