does narrow = better carver?

[D-Sub]

first I should say feel free to point me to other threads if I missed somethin.

so..aside from faster edge changes, does a narrower board optimize the carving experience?

[CarvCanada]

I really prefer around the 20cm range, which gives me angles around 50 degrees. you can get in a lot of upper body rotation, and I find the right combos of angulation/inclination easy to come by in quick adjustments. My stance is so comfortable for everything, from aggressive carving with lots of upper body rotation and lots of "feeding the dollar bill" to end the carve with a nice tail pop, to olllieing off bumps and jump turns.

I've tried narrow angles, I stayed in the 60's for a while last year just to try it out. On good conditions, it seemed easier to come by a solid carve. Leaning over statically on toeside and heelside (shoulders close to parallel to the flat plane of your board) made for easy, powerful carves and I was able to get pretty aggressive. However, you can get in those powerful turns with lower stance angles, making use of the right angulation, and you can be much more dynamic with high 40's, low 50's angles. I like edge changes a lot more with a wide board. With a thin board it feels sort of automatic. With a 20cm waist, with 50's angles, aggressive cross-throughs and things like retraction boosters feel much more dramatic for me.

[D-Sub]

cool response. thanks

whats a "retraction booster?"

[CarvCanada]

I didn't know what it was either until a week ago, but I looked at some page here that Jack made that had a list of cool drills to do, and I found "retraction booster" which I had been doing for a long time but didn't know the definition.

It's so fun! Basically on a low carve ( I really prefer heelside) just before the transition (in my case to toeside) just as you start to release your angulation and start your upper body rotation towards toeside, you drop your rear knee down to tilt the board even higher on edge (or to keep the board tilted high on edge if you're as low as can go). You keep that knee down for a split second and your board whips underneath you as you cross through to toeside. It's so fast... it's violent! I love it!

On toesides it's not quite the same, I prefer to get a nice build up on the tail at the end of toesides, and to snap into heelsides.

[Jack M]

I think it's totally personal preference. I used to have an FP167-210. Right, 210mm waist width. Great board.

[philfell]

On paper you could argue that a narrow board will carve better than a wider board. On a narrower board you have less leverage to twist the board, if you can't twist it, the board becomes really hard to skid. But the narrower a board gets the harder it is to balance on it and the harder it is to control when it gets bumpy.

[boostertwo]

Narrower boards usually require higher stance angles.

In addition to the performance considerations already listed, high stance angles also affect the movements you can make with your legs to steer the board (point the tip where you want).

Higher stance angles use smaller/weaker muscles (adductors/abductors) to steer the board than do lower stance angles (which use quads/hamstrings/gleuts/abdominals).

Stance angle also affects the range of motion of your steering movements: it is reduced as stance angles get higher. The ROM of femur in the hip is is less with higher stance angles, and you can't use the knee as a hinge to sweep the lower tib/fib as you can with lower stance angles.

<img src="http://tinypic.com/1ifpn4">

IMO narrower boards will work really well for groomers and high performance carving. In situations where you need big, strong, quick steering movements (turns that are smaller than the sidecut radius of the board, bumps, trees, heavy wet snow, ultra-steeps and chutes, most off-piste, and some course configurations), boards that are a bit wider with lower stance angles are preferable.

[bobdea]

Originally posted by CarvCanada

I really prefer around the 20cm range, which gives me angles around 50 degrees. you can get in a lot of upper body rotation, and I find the right combos of angulation/inclination easy to come by in quick adjustments. My stance is so comfortable for everything, from aggressive carving with lots of upper body rotation and lots of "feeding the dollar bill" to end the carve with a nice tail pop, to olllieing off bumps and jump turns.

I've tried narrow angles, I stayed in the 60's for a while last year just to try it out. On good conditions, it seemed easier to come by a solid carve. Leaning over statically on toeside and heelside (shoulders close to parallel to the flat plane of your board) made for easy, powerful carves and I was able to get pretty aggressive. However, you can get in those powerful turns with lower stance angles, making use of the right angulation, and you can be much more dynamic with high 40's, low 50's angles. I like edge changes a lot more with a wide board. With a thin board it feels sort of automatic. With a 20cm waist, with 50's angles, aggressive cross-throughs and things like retraction boosters feel much more dramatic for me.

for me its 19.5 or 20

much below that and things start to get a little harder to manage for me

for me the biggest thing is that I like to go switch every now and again that is scary on a narrow deck with 60+ angles

untill recently I had a really weak toe side at high angles as well, its better now though

[philw]

Originally posted by boostertwo

In addition to the performance considerations already listed, high stance angles also affect the movements you can make with your legs to steer the board (point the tip where you want).[...]

It's a truism that "stance angles" (as opposed to "high stance angles") affect the way you snowboard. I don't understand the argument about muscles and things though. I certainly use all the muscles which you say I don't. I don't "steer the board" by pointing anything anywhere though: I just stick it on edge. "sweeping" sounds a lot like an action I recognize from watching sideslippers - how does this work?

I've got a garage full of boards of various widths. My feet are sensibly sized so pretty much waist-width and stance angle are independent for me. For each board (except the early ones where you had to drill the board to change angles) at some time or other I've experimented with the various widths and angles. My results suggest different settings seem to work best for different boards (powder, GS, SL, carve). I'm sure that different people will find different settings useful (that's why gear is adjustable).

The Extreme Carve guys will point out that it depends what type of riding you're doing: if you want to dive for the snow you're going to need shallower angles and a wider board than if you're a fall-line ski-style boarder.

Does it make a difference? Yes. Does it make it better... not necessarily. My experience is that a perfectly matched board flex will project you from edge to edge faster than you'd like anyway, so the advantages of extreme narrowness are marginal. I'd love to do some A:B comparisions on boards of identical design (matched flex) in different widths, but I expect that the differences would be less than one might expect.

[D-Sub]

"For each board....I've experimented with the various widths...."

you own a board stretcher?

;)

[boostertwo]

Originally posted by philw

I don't understand the argument about muscles and things though. I certainly use all the muscles which you say I don't.

Hi Philw,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'll try to clarify. Before I do, I'll volunteer that I have size 13 feet which requires me to ride very high stance angles (69/66) on narrow, 18cm waist-width boards. Similar to a black hole, maybe I'm riding at the point where all known physics breaks down. But I think my observations also apply to riders with slightly less high stance angles.

High stance angles use different muscles <I>when using your legs to adjust the steering angle of the board</I>. You can feel this for yourself by simply standing up and 'scissoring' your legs, first with high stance angles, than with low ones. Big angles change the direction in which you pull the front foot/push the rear to steer the board. You can also feel the range of motion grow less with high stance angles using this same experiment.

Of course you still will use gleuts, quads, abdominals, and hamstrings when you ride--to create the other aspects of board performance. Deep flexing/extending of the legs is used to manage forces and quick movements of the legs to push/pull the board underneath you help to manage fore/aft pressure, for example. I'm simply saying that with high stance angles, you'll use different muscles when using the legs to <I>steer</I> the board.

Originally posted by philw

I don't "steer the board" by pointing anything anywhere though: I just stick it on edge. "sweeping" sounds a lot like an action I recognize from watching sideslippers - how does this work?

If you're saying that you're <i>always</i> able to 'tip and rip', good for you! I certainly admire that, and like you enjoy blasting carved arcs as often as I can when I ride carving gear.

But most people, like it or not, have to make steering adjustments as they ride. You'll see racers do this when the course dictates they make a turn tighter than the sidecut radius of the board--or when they throw it sideways after crossing the finish line. You'll also need to do this anytime you make turns tighter than the sidecut radius of the board (bumps, trees, ultra-steep chutes, in crowds, entering a lift maze, etc.--anytime you need to skid a turn). This is where the leg steering movements are weaker and offer less ROM as stance angles increase.

Of course, in addition to making the movement with the legs, there are <a href="http://www.vailbcschools.com/Page4_5_6.pdf" target="http://www.vailbcschools.com/Page4_5_6.pdf">other ways</a> to make steering movements (using upper body rotation or counter-rotation). Narrow board or wide, all are useful, and, IMO, a skilled rider should be able to make each one as the situation warrants.

<img src="http://tinypic.com/1iisux">

Mi dos centavos.

Cheers,

B-2

[pokkis]

boostertwo

How you can ride with 13 size feet with that low angles ?

I have mondo 27.5 on my boards with 18 cm center width and i'm riding with 65/70 - 60/65 ie Burner versus Madds.

[boostertwo]

Originally posted by pokkis

boostertwo

How you can ride with 13 size feet with that low angles ?

I have mondo 27.5 on my boards with 18 cm center width and i'm riding with 65/70 - 60/65 ie Burner versus Madds.

Big guy = big feet. I downsize boot shells to a size MP 29.5. It's waaay tight, but helps to alleviate overhang and allows me to ride lower angles.

<img src="http://tinypic.com/1ij1c6">

I'm pretty sure those are the angles I ride with 18cm boards, but it may be yet another hallucination resulting from my tempestuous youth. I'll check next time I mount one up (I usually ride 19.5-20cm waist-width carving boards).

Cheers,

B-2

PS: Just checked: 72/69 on Burton FP 173 180s. Now that's it's mounted up, I'm going to go ride it. Have a goof afternoon!