Osin 4807 - Cut tail or add inserts?

[DrCR]

A friend of mine and I hit Mt Bachelor for several days this season. I rode my 4807 168cm for what ended up being an awesome groomer day. The next day, however, a pow day, ended up not being so hot. After one run I knew my center of gravity was too far forward for this board, but I found I already had my front binding as far back as possible and with a 6 degree toe lift as well.

This was my first time riding light pow versus the heavier stuff, and what should have been an epic day prove to be a short and annoying one. I vowed never again.

Is there a way to add inserts to a board? Or should I go ahead and turn this fishtail into a swallowtail? I may do both, if I can do the former.

I'm tempted to just spring for a Donek Nomad or Hazelwood, but I'd like to get a new alpine board instead.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

There is a thread here about a friend of mine cutting his 4807's tail .

FYI. I think this is the first time I have heard anyone say that their 4807 is bias'd to the front too much?

Just saying. At 5'7", 150lbs you should have plenty of "Float". ??

[dingbat]

How deep was the pow?

Was your rear binding as far back as it can go?

What was the symptom that makes you think your weight was too far forward? Did the nose submerge when you were straight-lining, or did it slide under when you were trying to put it on edge?

[BlueB]

Don't do anything, 4807s are perfect just as they are.

I'm 6' 185lbs and ride 178. She's got all the float I would ever want, more then anything else, including Tanker. With your boddy stats you should be fine with 168.

On groom, for carving, it's important to move the bindings back, due to the flex pattern. In deep, you can ride with max setback, or just behind center if you like more level trim (which seems you don't). If you ended up cutting the tail, you'll loose a bit of pow "carving" feeling and gain nimbleness. I don't know what will happen to it in the long run.

Don't listen to Jim, he brakes everything ;) :D (note the smilies), but no, do not cut or put inserts, really not required.

I'm pretty happy with strength of my Dynastar version - it survived many years of pow, soft groom and slush carving, mogul riding, stuffing the nose into coastal "cemment", thumble down a small cliff, still going strongly. I do not know of anyone else in these parts braking a Dynastar, either.

[Mike T]

What other boards have you ridden in similar snow (depth, fluffiness) and how did that go?

[philw]

I've *still* not seen anyone ride anything looking remotely like those well in powder. I'm sure some people here can do it, but every single person I've seen try ended up throwing the boards to one side on day two. I mean "throwing" - before they ride they think they have a secret weapon. Afterwards, they have a wall ornament.

So if you're saying that the board's not great in powder, I think it's the board not the rider. I'll say it again: I'm sure some people here can ride them well in powder, and one day I hope to see it. But for most experts, more fun can be had on more modern designs.

I don't know those Donek boards, but they look like a better bet. I'd try a few powder boards and see what works for you.

---

I usually get modded to "off topic" when discussing powder boards. I suspect that's more about moderator brand loyalty than board use - let's see where this ends up, then I'll know for sure.

[BlueB]

I've *still* not seen anyone ride anything looking remotely like those well in powder. I'm sure some people here can do it, but every single person I've seen try ended up throwing the boards to one side on day two. I mean "throwing" - before they ride they think they have a secret weapon. Afterwards, they have a wall ornament.

I think it would have to do with the fact that people buy a big gun or swally for a heli trip. They never try or dial them in before the trip and end up strugling/changing to smaller "normal" boards. 4807 rides different to most of the boards and one should not try to ride it like a Fish...

BTW, did you ride the 4807, yourself?

I usually get modded to "off topic" when discussing powder boards. I suspect that's more about moderator brand loyalty than board use - let's see where this ends up, then I'll know for sure.

It should be in the OT, definitelly.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I think it would have to do with the fact that people buy a big gun or swally for a heli trip. They never try or dial them in before the trip and end up strugling/changing to smaller "normal" boards. 4807 rides different to most of the boards and one should not try to ride it like a Fish...

I have seen this several times. My advice is to take what you know. Keeping in mind Phil spends allot of time in this environment, more than most. Jealous!!

[dingbat]

I have a 178 4807. I'm 5'11", 210lbs.

My take on it is that it is the machine for riding big lines in deep, untracked pow. Tracked up, it slaps the ankles around. Not deep enough (less than 12") the tails drag the hard underneath which makes bringing it out of a straight line challenging and less than pleasant. Even with the boat keel like nose, if you try to ride pow with lots of angulation, the board will slice through and slide under. It seems to me that the board is made for one thing and does it well. I don't take it out for less than a foot and I don't expect it to be a blissful, heavenly, ride after the hill is tracked up and I can't get open fresh lines, but, god-damn it's a lot of fun when it's in it's element.

I wouldn't do anything to it, especially if you don't have much experience riding pow. Take it out where and when you should, and learn to ride it like a pow board rather than a carving board.

Edited March 11, 2012 by dingbat

[DrCR]

How deep was the pow?

Was your rear binding as far back as it can go?

What was the symptom that makes you think your weight was too far forward? Did the nose submerge when you were straight-lining, or did it slide under when you were trying to put it on edge?

Thanks for the posts guys. I'll be re-reading this thread a few times.

The stats on my profile are rather old, but not too far off. I'm at about 5'8" and 160lbs now. Most of the gear is different now too. I have a pretty narrow stance, which is why I think I'm having the issue. My rear foot is towards the front of the rear inserts. I've tried to go wider, but any wider feels weird and ruins my riding. I'm riding front: 6* toe lit, rear: 3* heel lift with a about 20* of that being outward cant. (I'm liking that heel lift with outward cant. That was a new experiment this year). I'm also right-footed but ride goofy, so I tend to ride with my weight biased on my front foot, which doesn't help the issue in powder either.

Conditions were chopped up powder of a good foot or so, but a few minimally touched areas were knee to thigh deep. (I had to trudge 100m or so through thigh deep to get back to the lift after one run. That's effort this eastcoster isn't used to).

On the chopped up stuff, I seemed to get tossed around due to the hull shape rather than simply going over it, but that effect seemed to dissipate a good bit if I leaned back. On the deep stuff, I was straight-lining, and it struggled to the point of non-trivial deacceleration unless I leaned back. If I leaned back, which felt particularly weird on hard boots, it then planed wonderfully, but of course felt awful.

In the past I had only ridden the 4807 on corduroy and mostly unspoiled, heavy powder of, say, a foot or so. This recent experience makes me want to throw it far away and get a true swallowtail. I may spring for a Hazelwood though, based on (

,

), but since this 4807 only cost me $100, if I can modify it into something that serve my purpose, then I can put that money into a FC or the like instead.

I eyed a Jones Hovercraft and Donek's Nomad, but I don't ride trees and I like to plane rather than stay in a perpetual off-step state, which, from the very little I've seen, seems to be the case for Hovercraft/BurtonFish et al boards until you really pick up a lot of speed. (Please enlighten me if my impression of these tree boards is lacking). I've eyed the Dupraz D1 as well, but I'm afraid I may have the same issue unless as the 4807 unless the D1 has a uncambered/rockered profile from the front bindings forward. (The 4807 doesn't).

Edited March 12, 2012 by DrCR

[DrCR]

What other boards have you ridden in similar snow (depth, fluffiness) and how did that go?

As you can see from the post above, my experience is lacking. Otherwise I would just go with what I know.

I don't expect it to be a blissful, heavenly, ride after the hill is tracked up and I can't get open fresh lines

What board do you use for this purpose?

Thanks for all the input.

[Mike T]

I've always viewed the 4807 as more of a tree board and not the best choice for open powder. It likes to slash but I don't find it particularly stable at speed. I have a Diablo 192 powder board which performs much better at higher speeds, I have never been on a Hazelwood but I'll betcha I'd find the Hazelwood even better for that kind of riding, just a feeling.

I ride my 4807 in softies centered on the inserts. I can't imagine it would ride well with the back foot more forward. I suspect the back foot positioning is more important than front foot.

My next powder stick will probably be a Prior Fissile. I was fortunate enough to borrow one for a run at SES, and I took it through the aspens which had a few inches of fluff and some bumps. It was enough to tell that it will do at least as well as my 4807 in tree powder, and will kick the crap out of the 4807 in bumps and anything that requires stability. I'd probably try a Hazelwood if I rode more open powder... most of my powder riding is in trees.

Powder like anything else takes some experience to do well. Depending on which day you were at Bachelor, you might have been in real powder... or you might have been in fresh snow that wasn't light enough to be called powder. Given that you said it had already been tracked, I'm guessing the latter, based on knowing how the season has gone over the past several weeks. The 4807 does not fare well at all in tracked denser snow... I either grab my Diablo or my Coiler 164 Softcarver in those conditions... usually the latter of late.

[Sinecure]

Another tip I've found helps on big pow boards (and skis too) is to make sure it is properly waxed. If there's drag on the base, it will pitch you forward. Well waxed will be faster and let the board plane better.

I had a 178 4807 until I broke it (twice). Now I have a Nitro Pow Gun 196 that is so much better.

Oh, and your stance is too narrow, but you know that already.

If you order a board from Prior or Coiler or Donek, you can always ask them to add some additional inserts for you. I did that on a 4WD a few years ago so I could use it for powder on occasion. It works great.

[dingbat]

What board do you use for this purpose?

Pure Boarding Two or Black Diamond.

[DrCR]

Thanks for the replies.

It had a good wax job, as I do my own waxing and tuning.

I'll have to put the alpine board purchase on the back burner and pick up a Fissile, Hazelwood, or the like. I'll definitely be asking for additional inserts. Actually, a 4WD or Axxess with extra inserts is a temping route as well. I'll also have to lurk ebay for some good softboot and softboot bindings on the cheap. That may be risky though, as comfort has been an elusive quarry in HBs for me.

dingbat, do you ride that Black Diamond with softies or HBs?

Edited March 13, 2012 by DrCR

[Dan]

Thanks for the replies. I'll have to put the alpine board purchase on the back burner and pick up a Fissile, Hazelwood, or the like. I'll definitely be asking for additional inserts. Actually, a 4WD or Axxess with extra inserts is a temping route as well. I'll also have to lurk ebay for some good softboot and softboot bindings on the cheap. That may be risky though, as comfort has been an elusive quarry in HBs for me.

dingbat, do you ride that Black Diamond with softies or HBs?

I just rode a 169 4WD in about 10 inches of fresh at NICE, and while it worked pretty well (I made turns, got a face shot or two and didn't get stuck/have to walk), it does not compare with a dedicated powder board in my opinion. You should totally get one...I just don't see it as anyone's go-to powder solution.

But what do I know, I think the 178 4807 is great for anything over 6 inches of fresh (though I feel like it's a bit long for me in some of the tighter/steeper trees on Meadows like parts of Jack's Woods and below Picnic Rock). Maybe I should try a modern pow board sometime...

[dingbat]

dingbat, do you ride that Black Diamond with softies or HBs?

Hard boots, Carve Company Speed bindings (Burton Race Plate design), and my rear boot in walk mode.

[Snowest]

4807's are outdated pieces of junk. You should get rid of it as soon as possible. I'll give you the $100 it cost you for it, or if you'd rather, I got a swallow-modded Arbor A-frame I'll trade for it.

[Dan]

Dont get an axess orr 4wd. There's no point to them if you have more than one board. Why settle for mediocrity at evereything, when you have boards that excell aat one thing?

One-board travel quiver!

Also, in the PNW, we get a lot of days that are like 2 inches of fresh cement over groomed hardpack -- need a 'tweener board (to borrow Oldsnowboard's term) for days like that.

[philw]

I think it would have to do with the fact that people buy a big gun or swally for a heli trip. They never try or dial them in before the trip and end up strugling/changing to smaller "normal" boards. 4807 rides different to most of the boards and one should not try to ride it like a Fish...

BTW, did you ride the 4807, yourself?

It should be in the OT, definitelly.

Fair points all. On the first, I'd just say that I have spent time listening to people who love their STs and then still hate them after a day in a heli, so they're not all inexperienced. Perhaps that's part of it. My personal view is that those designs are just not that good.

I have not ridden that myself, the closest would be the Burton Stellar, which is probably quite dissimilar, so I'm speaking from observation not experience, a fair point.

(My pet theory is that Burton is "off topic", not powder board at all. So I'll mention the evil empire a few times and see if that works. Of course now it won't work...)

--

Reading that second long post... sounds like the board's not working at all. You should plane with even a tree board like a Fish, but you ride lower in the snow. I've not seen the 164 Fish but you could try a Stellar (google and I've some hard boot video of that). However if you're not tree-oriented than those are probably the wrong design for you.

People here like big boards, on piste or off. These days I ride small boards on piste and off and I'm not getting burnt off by many. Perhaps I lost my bottle, or perhaps I ride well waxed boards as fast as I like. If you're into long boards, then you're looking at more traditional designs. My knowledge of those is not current. More modern powder boards are generally designed to be ridden shorter, with features like taper and various fancy cambers. You need to ride them at the recommended length though, so... well, you could try one (say a Baraccuda or Malolo), just so you know what you're not getting.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

4807's are outdated pieces of junk. You should get rid of it as soon as possible. I'll give you the $100 it cost you for it, or if you'd rather, I got a swallow-modded Arbor A-frame I'll trade for it.

There's the guy that was recently doing some serious arm twisting over a 4807 :)

Where is the photo of your handy work ?

[Snowest]

Where is the photo of your handy work ?

I've added some stainless steel tip guards and shifted the bindings back since this photo...And here's a vid of planing a 4807 through some real deep'n'wet stuff

[Sinecure]

Dont get an axess orr 4wd. There's no point to them if you have more than one board. Why settle for mediocrity at evereything, when you have boards that excell aat one thing?

I just rode a 169 4WD in about 10 inches of fresh at NICE, and while it worked pretty well (I made turns, got a face shot or two and didn't get stuck/have to walk), it does not compare with a dedicated powder board in my opinion. You should totally get one...I just don't see it as anyone's go-to powder solution.

Good advice in both cases. My 4WD is the 179 and it's pretty good in ankle to knee deep. And it is great on piste. If I were in a situation where I could only take one board with me on a trip, that would be the board. But if I knew it was going to be boot top or deeper, I'd take the dedicated pow stick. I wouldn't buy a 4WD to ride in pow, I'd buy a pow board (again, assuming you have other boards).

And I still like hard boots better, even in pow. I know this is heresy to many, but I own Malamutes and Head SP's and go the hard route unless I need to ride switch to demo something or teach.

[DrCR]

4807's are outdated pieces of junk. You should get rid of it as soon as possible. I'll give you the $100 it cost you for it, or if you'd rather, I got a swallow-modded Arbor A-frame I'll trade for it.

I actually would be tempted to sell it off, but I put a good, proper, but short, longitudinal crack under the front binding area. So I won't be selling it, though I'll likely still ride it..

it does not compare with a dedicated powder board in my opinion. You should totally get one...I just don't see it as anyone's go-to powder solution.

Dont get an axess orr 4wd. There's no point to them if you have more than one board. Why settle for mediocrity at everything, when you have boards that excell aat one thing?

That's a good point. I travel with more than one board anway. (I just recently flew United to Bend, OR, with a few days in Portland, with 4 boards in a SportTube. No overweight fees since they never bothered to weigh it before checking it. Woot). Unfortunately my 4807 was my go-to board for powder / tracked powder, to my great chagrin.

Would the new FC shape with the de-chamber nose and tail allow it to fair well, even compared to the 4WD and Axxess, in "2 inches of fresh cement over groomed hardpack"? I can't call those days off as that's what I've travelled for and the conditions and experience are still way better than NC / WV et al.

You guys are evil. I'm somehow now considering both an alpine board and a pow board. My wallet will likely limit it to one, and I guess I could risk going with the former and hitting Mt Hood next year without a true pow board and hope for the best. Or I could go a pow-specific board that would still yield fun on goomers e.g. Fissle/Nomad/Hazelwood.

But if I knew it was going to be boot top or deeper, I'd take the dedicated pow stick. I wouldn't buy a 4WD to ride in pow, I'd buy a pow board (again, assuming you have other boards).

And I still like hard boots better, even in pow. I know this is heresy to many, but I own Malamutes and Head SP's and go the hard route unless I need to ride switch to demo something or teach.

I'll be lurking for a deal on a softie setup, if only to see if that allows me a wider stance to try out my 4807 with. Who knows; maybe magic will happen then.

well, you could try one (say a Baraccuda or Malolo), just so you know what you're not getting.

I actually tried to demo something but couldn't find something pow specific, which I was really bummed about. I was hoping at least a Burton Fish would be available. (The Burton Fish seems like a very common board for the locals on the mountain that day).

There's lots of talk about Pow-specific boards, but could you all elaborate your pow-specific board choices? I had previously thought, apparently very incorrectly, of my 4807 as my pow-board.

The Fissle has been mentioned. How would the Fissle compare to the Dupraz D1?

philw, between the two, do you dig the Stellar or the Fish? Or do you dig another board even more?

The shortest board I've ridden in all but the most distant memory is my 167cm Axis, which isn't exactly too much shorter than my 168cm 4807. I don't find either board feeling very long. I think perhaps having something a bit longer may increase my comfort with speed? I guess both of those in tandem is why I'm eyeing something like a Hazelwood over a Nomad.

Edited March 14, 2012 by DrCR

[philw]

(The Burton Fish seems like a very common board for the locals on the mountain that day).

...

There's lots of talk about Pow-specific boards, but could you all elaborate your pow-specific board choices? I had previously thought, apparently very incorrectly, of my 4807 as my pow-board.

...

philw, between the two, do you dig the Stellar or the Fish? Or do you dig another board even more?

I think the Fish is common because it's good. You'll get hard bitten every-day slope workers riding those, and operators will also shift customers who can't cope onto them. They're good for beginners and experts, which is rare. They're worth a ride just for fun, although you may need a run or two to get used to the "no tail" feeling. The main disadvantages are "lack of slash", and they are harder to land on. It's a question of what you like.

The Stellar I think is more of a "big board" competitor. Maybe to be considered alongside the likes of Dupraz. It's too big for me for normal days (I weigh 62Kgs, something like 140 imperial), but if it's really deep then you're riding mellow terrain, so a bigger board is easier to get penetration on. I'd say it would be a handful for most riders in the trees. But if you like the alpine then it's a fun enough board, and extremely well built. They do use EST though (see other off topic musings here on how to use that with hard boots).

For me, I'd use the Stellar on huge days and the Fish other days; if I could carry only one I'd take the Fish as it's way more fun in the conditions I usually ride (mixed but mostly trees and 25cm-50cm of fresh dry). The Fish lacks "slash", so it's fun to ride other things too with different feels.

The main point I'm trying to make is that what many people tend to think of as "powder boards" (big STs and the like) aren't actually what "experts" ride at any heli operator I've used. That could be because they haven't got a clue, or maybe they found that the modern designs work better. You can always try both and see what works... but if you make the wrong choice in a heli generally you burned that day.