My first five days experience in hard booting

[ktv]

I actually tried shortly in Vail last March, but my boots were too uncomfortable that I swapped to soft boots after a few runs. I've been carpet boarding since October, having my local ski shop widen my boots several times for comfort. I have flat, wide feet, and the bones behind the pinky toe were being crushed and falling asleep.

About me. 5'5", 150 lbs, Mondo 26 Orange Indys with yellow BTS, Prior 159 4wd, Volkl Renn Tiger 163 SL. Currently 50/45 on 4wd, 60/55 on RT 163SL, both 19 1/4" stance.

Dec 23 - Mad River Mountain here in Ohio was open the previous weekend, so I rode my soft boots and freeride board at 40/35 to shake the dust off. Read up on carving from the FAQs, and watched this video several times which seems to be very good at demonstrating basic carving before the EC technique -

First run in hard boots on my 4wd (50/45 angles, 3 degree front lift and 6 degree rear lift), tried to turn head/shoulders/hips in the direction of the carve, and almost fall over. Figure out quickly that I thought I was carving on my soft gear ok, but was doing it completely incorrectly. I was completely counter rotating to "carve". This was a new experience, and wasn't so easy. First run (about a 30 second run to the bottom here in Ohio), I skidded back and forth the whole way down, rotating in the direction of the skid.

Next few runs, I graduated to skidded turns, then easy carves turning in the direction of the turn. Start to feel like I'm getting the hang of turning in the direction of movement. Get on the hill riding at 9:30am, rear leg is feeling tired by 11am. Swap to my freeride board, and mount plates to it to see what it feels like riding a softer board with hard boots, and ride for a while longer. Feel I can edge more on the freeride board with hard boots. Originally have my soft bindings on my freeride board, but hard boots were comfortable and responsive, so I swapped the bindings. Freeride board doesn't feel quite as stable though. Stay until about 2pm, then leave.

Dec 24 - Again arrive and get riding about 9:30am. Read up on angulating the night before, and trying to concentrate on knees bent, trailing hand in front in sight, body upright, stack over the edge. Not doing too bad after a few warm up runs to get used to riding, and board locks into a carve on a narrow (maybe 30-40 feet? wide) trail. I probably didn't have it that high on edge on toeside, but it didn't want to let go and when I was about 7 feet from entering the woods, I dumped and crashed to not shoot into the woods. Not pleasant. Continue to work on angulating, but carving parentheses shapes, nowhere close to C's. Find that I need to concentrate and keep both hands in front, or my heelside chatters and washes out. Try the only open "black diamond" here, which is probably a blue rating at Vail. Trail has a few steep rolling hills, slightly off camber on the sides, so not a smooth steep run. Carve toeside ok, then speed check heel side due to fear/lack of confidence. Skid/carve a few runs down this "black". Rear leg feels fatigued again about 11 am, and switch to freeride board with plates at noon. Ride til about 2pm again.

Dec 26 - Read up on angulating more, and from Carver's Almanac the "close the car door with your hip" technique to get up on edge faster. Also researched on Bomber forums why my rear leg is getting fatigued before my front, and decide to try 3 degree front and rear, all lift, instead of the 6 degree rear I was using. First few runs, it's frozen, hard packed groomed granular. Not comfortable trying to edge hold in this frozen stuff. It loosens up in about 1/2 hour, and I start trying to get up on edge sooner. First few tries, carve, but not so different. Finally figure out how to bump the hip, keep the knees bent, and keep that rear hand up in front to get up on edge higher. Have to really think about keeping that trailing hand up in front at the start of every run, and shoulders parallel to board. Later in the day (maybe noon-1pm) feel comfortable carving the green trail, hands forward, bumping the hip, and getting lower than I have ever (nowhere close to hip to snow though, but hard to tell how low I am). More going down the fall line and doing parentheses shapes, instead of C's across the fall line. Not sure if this is from lack of speed on the green run, or my lack of technique. Feeling good though, and carving, no skidding. Rear leg doesn't tire as fast, but still is more tired later on than front leg.

Dec 28 - Temps dropped, and they blew snow all night, and still blowing when I arrive at 9:30am again. Try the RT SL today. First run, on the shallower of the two Greens that are open, and 60/55 feels a lot different than 50/45. Start basic, hands forward, head/shoulders/hip pointing to direction of carve again, and skid/carve first run. Bottom of run have a little trouble skidding to a stop due to not being used to the angles. Take a few more runs (30 second runs here), and rear leg is tired! I had put a 6 degree disk in the rear, carving in my family room and with the higher angle feeling fine. Guess it's still tiring out my rear leg, so decide to give up on the RT as the 4wd still has the 3 degree/3 degree setup on it, me not feeling like swapping the bindings. Ride the 4wd, and snow is slow from being new man made "powder" instead of frozen granular. Head over to the black that's open, and able to carve it and contol speed with the slowness of the snow. Able to do a few linked carves, but when speed builds up, get nervous and speed check still. A few times I'm able to really angulate on toeside (still more comfortable toeside than heelside) and lock a small radius C carve, launch across the fall line, flip to heel edge but speed check my weak heelside. Trying to understand how to cross-through, but I think I'm crossing over with bent knees. Rear leg tires before front again, but around 2pm today. Stay until 3pm before heading home.

Dec 31 - It was in the mid 30's overnight, and 36 in the morning. Snow is much softer than I thought it would be when I arrive, as I had expected the temps to drop more. Had ordered two more 3 degree cant discs from Bomber earlier in the week, and am using 3 degree front/rear on the RT SL as well. Tried lessening my rear forward lean with the BTS to see if it helps my early tired rear leg. Start out with the RT SL (thinking I'd switch to the 4wd later), and take two runs to get used to the 60/55 angles. Start concentrating on hands in front, knees bent, bump the car door closed to get on edge early. Soft snow allows edges to dig in deep, and able to really get the board up on edge.

Able to carve almost full C's with the RT SL, in small radius turns. Once, when I locked in a carve and stayed in across the fall line, once again have a hard time getting off toeside edge to heelside edge, and headed for the woods again. This time I'm able to switch to heelside edge and skid/carve to get control again. Move over and try carving the black, get up high on edge, but again, fear from speed still. 60/55 feels alot more comfortable than 50/45, allows my upper body to more naturally face further forward that I don't need to think to keep the rear hand in front as much. By 11am snow is soft with use, and carving a deep toeside buries the nose in the soft wet snow and I go head over first, landing on my back. Bury the nose a few more times on toes sides, but none throw me over. Having fun at these binding angles and on this board though, and keep at it until 12:30pm when I decide snow's to soft, time to quit. Lessening the forward lean of the rear boots seems to help, or my rear quad is getting stronger. Rear leg doesn't feel more fatigued than my front, neither really feels tired.

Here's some questions and thoughts.

I need a lot of work on my heelsides to get more confident on it. On the black, it will still chatter and I speed check. I know most of the time I revert back to bad habits, and my trailing hand is behind me, and my front leg straightens as speed increases and (survival) instinct and old habits takes over. I also think I don't bend both legs enough. I'm also unsure if I'm going back to my old habit for toeside of going in front leg (mostly) straight, rear bent, good angulation, but lots of pressure on the rear leg to carve. Is this what's locking my toeside and not letting me switch to heelside easily?

I feel like I can't pressure my front leg hard. Even when I bump the car door and get up on edge quickly, it doesn't feel like my front leg is pressuring the board that much. Would a 0 degree disc up front help this out? Or is it technique? Is it because I'm mainly entering from maybe a 45 degree angle to the fall line, instead of across the fall line? (so doing parentheses shapes down the run) Is it from bindings being centered on the effective edge? On the 4wd, I'm centered, on the RT SL I'm slightly forward.

I'm riding orange Indy's with yellow BTS, as little preload as I can put on with the springs not flopping around. Standing clipped in in my family room, I can flex forward a decent amount, and backwards a fair amount. However, with some of the photos posted of proper position, it looks like the riders are really flexing far forward on their boots. Is it just the Indy's are very stiff, or my (lack of) technique isn't driving the boots? Am I flexing the boots and not knowing it during the carve? I also tried ankle flexion exercises as shown in the carving range of movements article, but it feels like I can't flex the boot with just my ankles. I also ride with booster straps, loose when I start and tightened down later on. Each gives a different feel, and sometimes when I tighten the boost strap, it feels good to carve, other times, it feels like the boot is too solid. I haven't decided which feels better.

I know I need to see some video of myself to see what I'm going, but I ride alone at the moment. I might have some friends going for a day in January some time to be able to get some video to analyze.

After trying hard booting briefly last year in Vail, and my feet screaming, I thought I wasn't going to like hard booting that much. After getting my boots comfortable this year with lots of stretching, I haven't wanted to put on my soft boots again yet (although I have the Bomber Power Plates on there, and want to see how I do on them with my new technique)!

All of this was on three trails that are open here at the moment, two greens and a black. It's supposed to be cold tonight through Wednesday here, so hopefully they'll have all the trails covered and opened Wednesday when I go back again to have some wider blues to play with as well.

Advice and suggestions appreciated.

Khanh

[ibrussell]

To get more front foot pressure try moving stance forward 1/4" or just front foot. Charlie

[Mike T]

Indys are stiff boots, especially for an inexperienced 150 pound rider. Having said that, stiff boots are only a problem if you find that they prevent you from moving well, and from getting your body into a desirable position.

I recommend looking for an experienced carver to meet up with... that'll get you farther, faster than trying to get advice over the internet

[Bobby Buggs]

Mike is right, you really need to find someone to ride with that has more experience. Its amazing how much it will accelerate your learning curve. One thing I remembered about that was while following someone I didnt have time to worry about stuff, it was more about executing and trying to match what the person in front of you was doing. My first Heel to Toe carved transition on a steep drop happened in 2002 chasing a friend, I remember it vividly:biggthump

Find a buddy!!

[lafcadio]

It's difficult to tell without seeing you ride, but two things you said stuck out to me, mostly because I also suffer form this problem from time to time:

1. getting locked into a carve and not able to come out of it

2. burying the nose and getting "thrown over the handle bars"

Both of these issues could be caused by having too much weight forward on the board. You may be bending forward at the waist or your whole body may be leaning forward too much.

To counter, try concentrating on keeping your weight centered fore to aft on the board. This is especially important towards the end of a turn, where you definitely do not want too much weight forward.

If this is the problem, you'll notice it more in softer snow than in hard. In hard packed conditions (hero snow) you'll be able to get away with many bad habits without realizing it. Then you get into soft snow or otherwise less than ideal conditions and and the bad habits come back to haunt you. In fact, soft snow can be good to work out the kinks in your technique.

Good luck and keep at it!

[ktv]

To get more front foot pressure try moving stance forward 1/4" or just front foot. Charlie

Thanks Charlie. I just tried moving the bindings of my 4wd up towards the nose by 1/4", and will try this Wednesday. With the limited inserts of the board though, it widened me up to 19 1/2" as well.

[ktv]

Indys are stiff boots, especially for an inexperienced 150 pound rider. Having said that, stiff boots are only a problem if you find that they prevent you from moving well, and from getting your body into a desirable position.

I recommend looking for an experienced carver to meet up with... that'll get you farther, faster than trying to get advice over the internet

Mike is right, you really need to find someone to ride with that has more experience. Its amazing how much it will accelerate your learning curve. One thing I remembered about that was while following someone I didnt have time to worry about stuff, it was more about executing and trying to match what the person in front of you was doing. My first Heel to Toe carved transition on a steep drop happened in 2002 chasing a friend, I remember it vividly:biggthump

Find a buddy!!

Thanks guys. Here at my local hill, I met two hard booters last season. I believe they're on here as well. I've been trying to meet up, but haven't been able to yet. Other than them, hard booters are sparse here. I am planning on attending ECES, so I believe that will help greatly.

As for the Indy's, they don't feel too stiff when carving (maybe sometimes when I really cinch down the booster strap). I was just wondering in general whether you should be able to flex your ankles forward/back in hard boots, like in soft boots, or whether what I'm feeling is "normal".

It's difficult to tell without seeing you ride, but two things you said stuck out to me, mostly because I also suffer form this problem from time to time:

1. getting locked into a carve and not able to come out of it

2. burying the nose and getting "thrown over the handle bars"

Both of these issues could be caused by having too much weight forward on the board. You may be bending forward at the waist or your whole body may be leaning forward too much.

To counter, try concentrating on keeping your weight centered fore to aft on the board. This is especially important towards the end of a turn, where you definitely do not want too much weight forward.

If this is the problem, you'll notice it more in softer snow than in hard. In hard packed conditions (hero snow) you'll be able to get away with many bad habits without realizing it. Then you get into soft snow or otherwise less than ideal conditions and and the bad habits come back to haunt you. In fact, soft snow can be good to work out the kinks in your technique.

Good luck and keep at it!

I do recall a few times when I was carving toeside hard, and hit some rough snow, it felt like my upper body was being forced down, like I was bending at the waist and the force of the carve/rough snow was forcing me to bend further. I'll try to keep conscious of not bending at the waist. Thanks, this will probably help out!

I'm also thinking about buying a GoPro and mounting it to the front of the board, or a pole, to see what my body position looks like, without having to have someone to ride with to record me. This will probably help out a lot with figuring out what I'm really doing.

[carvedog]

cool. you are on your way.

getting locked in to a carve almost always happens from getting static in your flex/extend. Could be by getting too compressed into the bottom of your turn or a couple of other things.

If you can't retract it's hard to get off the edge.

Static body positions also build fatigue. See how tall you can get at some point in the carve cycle just to stretch that back quad.

[ktv]

cool. you are on your way.

getting locked in to a carve almost always happens from getting static in your flex/extend. Could be by getting too compressed into the bottom of your turn or a couple of other things.

If you can't retract it's hard to get off the edge.

Static body positions also build fatigue. See how tall you can get at some point in the carve cycle just to stretch that back quad.

Thanks carvedog! Do you mean I may need to extend more towards the end of the turn with both legs?

My "old" bad habit, that I'm sure I still fall back into (especially notice it on the faster runs) is that I slightly bend my front leg, and really bend the rear leg, and pressure the tail a lot more throughout. I think this keeps me from starting hard on edge, but has always allowed me to "carve" to finish with leaning into the turn. I know it's bad, but it's a bad habit.

[carvedog]

Thanks carvedog! Do you mean I may need to extend more towards the end of the turn with both legs?

My "old" bad habit, that I'm sure I still fall back into (especially notice it on the faster runs) is that I slightly bend my front leg, and really bend the rear leg, and pressure the tail a lot more throughout. I think this keeps me from starting hard on edge, but has always allowed me to "carve" to finish with leaning into the turn. I know it's bad, but it's a bad habit.

I can't really address timing of the extension without seeing video or riding with you. But the burning leg syndrome can be relieved ( if not eliminated) by stretching that quad out. I tend to extend quite hard laterally to the fall line and I am sucking it up or retracting to start the turn and then pushing out quite hard again ( during the uphill part of the carve ) before starting to retract through the bottom ( usually higher pressure part) of the carve.

Lots of ways to do it right. I try to not be judgmental about bad or good as long as you are carving and having fun. Keep playing with the flex/extend at different points in the turn. It's fun and will let your muscles breathe a bit to help get rid of the lactic acid. ;)

[lafcadio]

But the burning leg syndrome can be relieved ( if not eliminated) by stretching that quad out. I tend to extend quite hard laterally to the fall line and I am sucking it up or retracting to start the turn and then pushing out quite hard again ( during the uphill part of the carve ) before starting to retract through the bottom ( usually higher pressure part) of the carve.

+1 on that! carvedog, you hit the bullseye! All last season I was plagued with tired quads, even at the end of the season. I felt like I couldn't make much more than 4 turns without stopping to rest my legs.

Today, I had a major breakthrough with starting edge transitions really low with knees deeply bent (thanks for the great advice, digbat), then extending through the turn, and getting a ton of angulation in the process. I don't think I ever had the board higher on edge, or completed so many turns. And my legs kept right on going... well at least until 3 PM! :o Ahh... it flet so good.

[DrCR]

Both of these issues could be caused by having too much weight forward on the board. You may be bending forward at the waist or your whole body may be leaning forward too much.

To counter, try concentrating on keeping your weight centered fore to aft on the board. This is especially important towards the end of a turn, where you definitely do not want too much weight forward.

I was having this issue and a bootfitter took a lazer lever and shined it, vertically, on the centerline of the board -- I was well forward of the centerline, so we put in a large toe lift on the leading foot and that did the trick. A valid counter?