How wide can I go?

[luv2ride]

I'm looking to get a board for soft boot carving, I've tried hard boots and high angles and didn't like either.

I followed the Donek paper measurement guide to figure out the waist width (for my boot size and stance angle) and the number came out to 33cm. I have been told that it is not possible to make a board this wide.

So I am looking for advice on how wide a waist I should get and any input on how a board like that would ride?

In my current stance my boots on board width measures 33cm (34 with the binding back), I have a board with a waist of 26.7 and I boot out heel side almost every day. My boots hang over about 1 inch on each side of the board. I'm 6'6" and about 190lbs.

Thanks in advance!

[Randy T.]

Welcome to BOL.

What size are your feet and what angles do you have you bindings at? If you followed Sean's video guide and came up with a 33cm board I would think that you probably need to increase your bindings angles some.

It might be best to call and talk to Sean about it also.

[luv2ride]

Thanks!

I spent years messing with stance angles and I like them where they are (12 & -3).

Sean said the same thing, I'm not willing to do that hence the need for a wide board.

I'm hoping someone has some experience with wide boards and can offer some input?

Welcome to BOL.

What size are your feet and what angles do you have you bindings at? If you followed Sean's video guide and came up with a 33cm board I would think that you probably need to increase your bindings angles some.

It might be best to call and talk to Sean about it also.

[newcarver]

Going with a board that wide and trying to carve is an exercise in futility. It would be so slow edge to edge. You are going to have to compromise some. Carving with a duck stance will also inhibit you. Try using something around +25-30 front and 15-20 rear to start with. You should be able to get comfortable with that. If you are riding the big stance widths that most softerbooter are now days, lower that some too. Should make a big difference.

[carvedog]

So you want to carve

don't want to change stance angle

and don't want heel drag??????

I did a quick search and it doesn't seem like they build boards much past 27cm or so. That is what my Burton Canyon is and I ride hbs and carve on it but I am around 25 to 30 on both feet. In really soft snow I still kind of boot out but it is up around the ankle not the board edge that lifts me out of the snow.

Other than changing one of the parameters above I don't know what your options are but.....

1) make a custom one off 33cm board. Hmmm, from carving my Canyon I don't think this will be a solution. It is touchy to carve, has considerable torsional flex and is very slow edge to edge.

2) Change stance angle or boot setup. Raising your boots up on a plate or riser will decrease the onset of boot drag. Possible but more akin to treating a symptom than the disease. Change stance angle. Who knows? It might be good for you. I ride about five different angles from the Canyon, to teaching boards at around 35/40 Frontier at 45/45, FP 19cm waist at 55/60 to my 18 cm waist boards at 67/65. I have 28.5 mondo in hard boots fwiw.

3) Lop off toes and go down three boot sizes and get a wide boot.

:eek:

[luv2ride]

Maybe I should go about this a different way.

Has anyone ridden a board that is around 30cm wide? If so how did it ride and what was your setup?

Or if a Swoard or Swoard Dual with a waist width of 23.1 or 27 works, why would scaling it up to a waist width of 26 or 30cm cease to make it work?

I come from surfing and boards that work for Kelly Slater or Gerry Lopez do not work for me. Also as a skater I've done enough strapless riding to learn what my natural foot stance is.

[newcarver]

You could carve with a wider board. It would just make it more difficult. Same goes with bindings/stance settings. You're weight distribution would be all weird with the low angle duck stance. The Swoard boards are made for EC type carving. This is a unique style that requires lower boot angles and a wider board. They still run angles in the 40's-30's though. I to used to surf and skate. I used to ride duck stance too. Now, even with soft boots, I can't run angles less than about 28 and 15+ on both feet. I can carve though and still ride everything from backcountry powder to steep mogels. I used to even do 50-50s on handrail in the park with these angles. Forgot to mention that carving generally uses more of your lateral force from your foot than a fore aft movement. You kind of use leverage off your boot sides. This is why the hardboot works for carving and softboot carving is done with a very stiff boot/interface.

[BlueB]

I followed the Donek paper measurement guide to figure out the waist width (for my boot size and stance angle) and the number came out to 33cm.

...

In my current stance my boots on board width measures 33cm (34 with the binding back),

Something doesn't sound right here...

If your boot length is 33, that would require equal board width AT THE INSERTS, AT 90* INCLINATION. So, the 33 waist is out already, just by the fact that waist gets narrower then the width at the inserts. Over and above, I doubted that it's required to put a softy board on edge higher then 70*, probably not even that much... As the matter of fact, in duck stance it would be very hard to tilt the board, on heel side, even to 45*. Never the less, let's use the 70* as the worst case scenario.

Assumptions:

- 33 boot sole

- 50cm stance

- 9m scr

- 70* edge inclination

- 10mm board thickness, 10mm binding base plate, 10mm boot sole undercut

- All math to solid hard surface

The above would call for board width of 30.8 at the inserts.

Let's add a 20mm riser to the picture (those are not too hard to find). You'd need 29.4 at the inserts. That equals to 28.65 at the waist.

At a wider stance, the equation becomes even better. At lower angles of inclination, even way better.

* All modeled on CAD very quickly. I stand corrected if I screwed up something... *

[teach]

What's your boot size? Any chance you can downsize? I ask because most soft boot riders ride boots that are bigger than necessary. When you tighten up the straps you're OK usually.

As for stance, I understand what you're saying. I'm a skater too, and like about the angles you describe, though I move around a bit on the board. But that's when I'm riding transition. When I ride down a hill looking to make turns, I ride much more angled, forward, and narrower stance. Give that a try on a long skateboard (not one a them possicles) and try to see the difference it makes in turning. Loosen up trucks if you can't turn, of course! Then revisit the 33 cm wide board issue.

With my feet, I'd need a nearly 33cm waist board to ride those angles to clear the Burton heel cup. As it stands I'm going with a 26.5 cm waist, intended to ride about 40/35 or 45/40. I'm thinking of a 28 cm wide board to ride lower angles with. Not sure if I'd like it. But Donek builds them and I bet they'll be torsionally stiff--they're Doneks!

[luv2ride]

You are correct, I must have messed up the Donek angulation guide - the 33 measurement must have been at the inserts and not the waist (I used 85*). I'll remeasure to be certain.

Your boot sole and stance width assumptions are also correct, I have a riser but not sure what thickness.

Assuming a waist of about 29cm, what would be the drawbacks of going that wide?

I have some wide surfboards and it's harder to bury the rail (something with a wide base is harder to tip over than something with a narrow base). But with snowboards you are strapped in, and being tall with enough leg strength I have never had a problem putting a board on edge (my equipment gives before I do).

Something doesn't sound right here...

If your boot length is 33, that would require equal board width AT THE INSERTS, AT 90* INCLINATION. So, the 33 waist is out already, just by the fact that waist gets narrower then the width at the inserts. Over and above, I doubted that it's required to put a softy board on edge higher then 70*, probably not even that much... As the matter of fact, in duck stance it would be very hard to tilt the board, on heel side, even to 45*. Never the less, let's use the 70* as the worst case scenario.

Assumptions:

- 33 boot sole

- 50cm stance

- 9m scr

- 70* edge inclination

- 10mm board thickness, 10mm binding base plate, 10mm boot sole undercut

- All math to solid hard surface

The above would call for board width of 30.8 at the inserts.

Let's add a 20mm riser to the picture (those are not too hard to find). You'd need 29.4 at the inserts. That equals to 28.65 at the waist.

At a wider stance, the equation becomes even better. At lower angles of inclination, even way better.

* All modeled on CAD very quickly. I stand corrected if I screwed up something... *

[luv2ride]

Boot size is as small as can be.

I'm with you on moving around on a skateboard, I have a diverse quiver (popsicles being the only thing I don't ride:D). When cruising or pumping I go narrow and more forward, but when carving I widen up and my back foot will end up right around zero degree.

I've never been comfortable with a high degree stance, it just doesn't feel right to me.

What's your boot size? Any chance you can downsize? I ask because most soft boot riders ride boots that are bigger than necessary. When you tighten up the straps you're OK usually.

As for stance, I understand what you're saying. I'm a skater too, and like about the angles you describe, though I move around a bit on the board. But that's when I'm riding transition. When I ride down a hill looking to make turns, I ride much more angled, forward, and narrower stance. Give that a try on a long skateboard (not one a them possicles) and try to see the difference it makes in turning. Loosen up trucks if you can't turn, of course! Then revisit the 33 cm wide board issue.

With my feet, I'd need a nearly 33cm waist board to ride those angles to clear the Burton heel cup. As it stands I'm going with a 26.5 cm waist, intended to ride about 40/35 or 45/40. I'm thinking of a 28 cm wide board to ride lower angles with. Not sure if I'd like it. But Donek builds them and I bet they'll be torsionally stiff--they're Doneks!

[luv2ride]

How long did the transition to high angles take you?

One of the reasons I love my stance is that it works equally well for surfing, skating, and snowboarding. I can ride pow on Sunday and catch the tail end of the swell on Monday and there is no awkwardness going from one board to another.

Surfing I can put all my weight into a turn leaning as far as I can and the tail won't slide out. This is what I want to be able to do on a snowboard. I even switched to air tires on some skateboards to get closer to a surfing carve.

I used to ride duck stance too. Now, even with soft boots, I can't run angles less than about 28 and 15+ on both feet...This is why the hardboot works for carving and softboot carving is done with a very stiff boot/interface.

[DiveBomber]

Well this is why most of us use a cant on the rear, make forward angle way more comfortable. I dont mean to insult you, But maybe you need to take a lesson, or get your self on video, im pretty sure we will see you sitting on the toilet.

sounds kind of like you are trying to make the gear fit what you are doing wrong, which is ok, what ever works, but I think you are just making it hard on your self.

what boot size are you anyway??

I find that I get less boot out with HB's even at low angles.(step ins)

[newcarver]

1st time I tried hardbooting I ran somewhere around 50 F and 45 R. It was very painful and felt totally akward. I backed the angles off a bunch even though it would overhang. I couldn't really get the board up high enough on edge to matter in the begining anyway. Still ran around 40 F and 30 R on a wider freecarve board. Got comfortable with that and would just crank the angles up a little bit each time I would go ride. Now comfortable running 58-50 angles on hardboots and started running 30+ F and 20 on softies. Best to do it in steps so you can adjust to it. With the duck stance, you will probably not be able to carve on your heel side very well.

[Donek]

Carving on a wide board for someone with large feet is no different from carving on narrow board for someone with small feet. We spend a lifetime developing the muscles necessary to walk down the street, run, or stand on our toes. A snowboard that is of similar width to your foot will not be difficult to edge or have any different reaction time than is natural for your body.

As for the video. It implies a great deal more than is typically executed. It provides the tools to determine at what angle you do boot out and if it is dramatically different from toe to heel. If there is a big difference, then you plainly have some adjustments to be made in your setup to balance toe or heel drag. Once you know how far you can currently go, you can start to assess how much further you might need to be able to angle your board.

As for sizing a board width. Width is about 1/4 of the equation in building a board. Length and sidecut radius determine the maximum waist width. These are based on individual preference or the terrain and type of riding you do. Your mountains vertical rise, trail width and snow conditions can all affect these things. Your preference for long super g style turns or tight slalom turns will affect things as well. If you provide the additional data, I can begin to help size a board for you.

[tparachou]

i wear a size 14 street shoe and in soft boots i down size to a 10.5 or 11 and i ride a 27cm wide Oxess for boardercross and it works great with 24 in front and 9 in back. First thing i would do is go to a shop and do a shell test on some driver X boots or whatever you plan on riding and go that route having boots that fit tight are also key to saving your ankles trust me i know from experience

[Rob Stevens]

I'm a 10.5 and in most boots have overhang. Don't get too hung up on it though... I can go 90 degrees toeside and about 50 heelside. This works out well because you can't pressure a toeside turn as hard, so you edge to make up for it. Heelside turns can hold alot of pressure, so you don't need to angle the edge as much.

I do use a shell as small as is comfortable and have Nitro bindings with flat, metal baseplate heel loops to keep drag to a minimum. a riser is also an option, but you need one that totally supports the baseplate.

If you're bigger than a 10.5 or 28 mondo, you're handicapped in the world of low angle softboot carving and will probably need a custom board. Most factory "wides" are not made for carving and are probably some "moustache" shape. You want camber, or camber with some nose rocker.

Oh yeah... There is some crap intel on this thread. You can have style in a duckstance, wider boards will carve and you don't need a specific board / stance to EC. You'll find alot of "surf-style carving" vids and talk on this site, but I've never seen a surfer stand like an alpine rider.

You will never carve as well as a good hardbooter. I just have to say this to avoid stupid confrontations with people who react badly if they don't see this statement in so many words.

Look for your thread later in the "off topic" column. This is where you should post soft boot stuff. You'll also avoid the rhetoric of less understanding types, as they won't open threads they know contain soft boot discussions.

[luv2ride]

Thank you to everyone for your input!

I went with a 30.5 waist Donek.

Thanks Sean

[newcarver]

I'll still stand by my statements above. I didn't say it would be imposible but more difficult. As far as EC, tell me the specs of all the boards specifically designed to do such. Is there a reason they are all very similar? Probably a little easier to carve with softies on a wider board and low angles. I still say it would be more difficult with low angles and a duck stance. Anything can be carved fairly easily in optimum condition. Try doing it with a less than ideal setup on boilerplate or groomed sloped in the +25 deg range. Its all very relative to the situation, but there are some things that have pretty much been proven to be better than others in a lot of circumstances. If someone is really trying to lay down nice carves then there is a way to setup your equipment to make this easier instead of harder.

[newcarver]

You made a great choice with going full custom. Sean will build you what will work for you're riding style. I was wrong about the width. It would be relative to your foot size. I was going on my own expierence with board widths but I have a 26.5 foot.

[newcarver]

Just for the record, I carve on both hardboot setups and softies. Here is a picture of me a few weeks ago on my Durpaz with 33 and 20 deg angles.

smallcarve.bmp

[Fastskiguy]

I'd love to hear about how the super wide carving stick rides...be sure to post when you get your new board!

[icebiker]

Moot point seeing as you pulled the trigger on a new board (congrats!), but FWIW I ride a Ride Yukon 172, nose/tail = 32.3, waist 26.9. Size 14 Airwalk softboots with old three-strap Burton Torque bindings. 45/30 F/R angles. No toe or heel overhang. Carves beautifully. But, if I was riding 12/-3, I'd definitely have overhang/boot out.

[newcarver]

Found this Elan board that is suposededly the "widest board in the world". Pretty wide at over 28 cm.

http://www.snowboardsusa.com/html/elan_snowboards_0.html

For anyone else looking to go wide and get a stock board.

[bobdea]

Found this Elan board that is suposededly the "widest board in the world". Pretty wide at over 28 cm.

http://www.snowboardsusa.com/html/elan_snowboards_0.html

For anyone else looking to go wide and get a stock board.

yeah, the el grande is pretty neat, special sidecut, almost straight at the tips