A "Master Boot Fitter" said to me >

[SteveInOregon]

So here I go again:

Update: broken ankle from last years 1st season on hard boots is A-ok, when't n gotta better stick ( a RennTiger) than last years 1st carve board the OxyProton aka rock board, ( deep breath in ) SOOoooooooo I was in the mountaineering / outfitting store thee other day and a master ski boot fitter was shooting the breeze with the proprietor friend of mine about going to a boot fitting seminar up in Tahoe yada yada yada, I jumped in and explained my situation and he said that he was a ski racer and has a few session on alpine hard boot / boards.

I mentioned wishing to upgrade my comfort ankle security and over all fit old Nodica 3 buckle's with some high end heat mold able liners and he stopped me and said (paraphrasing ) " Your wasting your money on mold-able liners , go with a high quality foot bed instead"

I was like "ohhhh really" , I thought the liner would kind of vacuum pack my ankle in and keep me from making any movement / shifting in my boot and make a secure safe fitment ?

He asked me a bunch of questions

He said " Ya but Your not a racer and you do not need a custom liner at all , keep the stock liner, what You need Steve is a high quality mold-able foot bed with the proper arch .

He said he does understand the difference between ski and alpine boots, torsional flex, angle of bindings, stiffness etc.

( continuing ) He Said: You need boots that locate Your ankle in the right pocket for / aft for your particular foot and he was adamant that you need to try on every pair of boots you can get your hands on "before" buying .

He said " Steve I just got back from the local ski shop and I tried on almost 20 pairs of boots and only 1 pair felt secure and right for my calcified 40 year old foot, all the others would only bring me sorrow and soreness, and so You Steve need to try before You buy.

I laughed out loud and said : You obviously know that Alpine hard booting is a niche , minority almost boutique sport that does not lend it's self to volume sales and so no ski / board store will stock alpine equip, and to find a ski / board shop that actually does have Alpine boots on the shelf I would have to go to Aspen and then only maybe they would have more than one brand or model in stock so I have to rely on reading BOL to make a non experiential moderately informed decisions from guys ( and gals ) who already went through boot heel ( hell ) to work out an acceptable criteria of what is good, what is a secure fitment, what is quality and what is a waist of money.

He also said: If You ride reasonably hard Your boots are worn out after about 5 seasons no matter how pretty they are , and are worn out a LOT faster if Your a racer ( no matter how clean & shiny they are )

He said : Your boots should fit so good that you don't need to cinch them up ultra hard to get a good fit for speed and hard turns, and that You can keep them on ALL day, even during lunch breaks etc... and forget they are on, and only take them off at the end of the day, that is how good they should fit Steve, also he said that here is no need for heavy socks to "fill in the gaps" just one pair of medium to light socks are needed when a boot fits properly. Heavy socks will cut off the blood flow from the top of Your foot and cause cold toes.

He said boots are thee #1 most important peace of equipment, a board is a far 2nd but 90+ % of riders place the board as #1 and that is totally wrong.

So, he gave a lot of anatomy and a lot of ski racer experience but I wonder iof his Alpine experience is enough to take the liner / no liner advice ?

1) What do You long time Alpine peeps think of liners vs foot bed's.

2) My old but clean 3 buckle's > a waist , get rid of them and buy up to a spanking new pair ?

3 ) Boots are shot after 5 average seasons of typical riding no matter how good they look ?

Your "experienced" input is appreciated:rolleyes:

[Mr.E]

Moldable liners, foot beds, ankle pads, shell mods etc are all solving different issues. Start with foot beds then get liners. That said, as most current hard boots come with a moldable liner there isn't really much to consider there, eh?

Take the advice- try on different shells, get footbeds, have the liners molded and consult a bootfitter who can help with specific pressure/ volume/ shell issues.

Had to argue with someone suggesting you treat your feet well.

[SteveInOregon]

Moldable liners, foot beds, ankle pads, shell mods etc are all solving different issues. Start with foot beds then get liners. That said, as most current hard boots come with a moldable liner there isn't really much to consider there, eh?

Take the advice- try on different shells, get footbeds, have the liners molded and consult a bootfitter who can help with specific pressure/ volume/ shell issues.

Had to argue with someone suggesting you treat your feet well.

I really don't have any special or nagging type of "foot or ankle issues" , hell even my healed ankle is not an issue.

I just want my boots to fit a bit more securely and not have any heel lift type of movement , that and a comfy snug fit with no over pressure making my toes cold, so I guess I will go with $50 foot beds and take it from there for now ?.

I will watch this post to see what more experienced riders have gone through and advise.

I may have the cart before the horse and need to dump the old Nordicas and toss 3 to 5 on spanky new booties with all the cool booty bells , buckles and whistles, lol :D

[Mr.E]

Heel lift? Look at :

Shell fit (length and volume)

Are your liners old? Good change they are packed out.

Foot beds- these will help in volume and support, and to a lesser degree heel lift

Achilles and ankle pads might be a decent way of squeezing a little life out of packed liners, but only assuming the shells are appropriate.

Bring them in to the boot fitter you were talking to and get his option on your case rather then general fit theory.

[Buell]

..... so I guess I will go with $50 foot beds and take it from there for now ?.

I think the guy your were talking to was probably thinking more like $300 foot beds.

[Keithf]

Steve,

I had a problem with a pair of alpine hard boots a few years ago - I was getting pressure points around one ankle that was causing majorly bad pain. Went to several bootfitters, and they tried all sorts of bodgy fixes to relieve the pressure/pain. They tried inserting extra packing material, removing material from the liner, putting in cushioning donuts around the ankle, all sorts of things. Nothing worked. Then I found a bootfitter who knew what he was doing, saw what the real problem was, and made custom foot beds. Problem solved. The problem was just that the geometry of my feet was causing my ankle to roll off to the side, causing pressure against the side of the boot/liner. It wouldn't have mattered how nicely the liner was molded or fitted, that just can't make up for poor posture.

So I can understand where he's coming from - get the fundamental posture sorted first, then worry about tailoring the fit for comfort & control.

Keith

[SteveInOregon]

I think the guy your were talking to was probably thinking more like $300 foot beds.

For that price they better come with breasts attached to them, lol:rolleyes:.

But seriously, maybe he was talking about $300 beds.

To answer the other gentleman about "packed out" liners:

My boots are about 10 years old , they basically really do feel comfy, with no hard spots, no rubbing, no pain to complain about, but and this is the crux of my OP is> this is a small "but" they could use a "bit" more all around snug heel hold and plushness, the bed is "hard".

I want to eliminate the air space around my heel the little pockets of space that keep the boot from holding it in place like a momma holds a babies hand :rolleyes:

I'm not going to invest 300 in a foot bed, I mite as well just buy a new pair, ahhhhhh but what pair

I guess when in doubt just buy the most expensive pair on the market ( throwing dice on table ) and hope it lands on a pair of keepers.

You guys who live in a major ski area have it made, You can just pop in to Das Boot N Skee and jump into a pair and try them for a carpet ride. We dudes and dude-et's we have to shop for UPZ's via UPS, lol.

I dont want this to be a run away post that goes down a rabbit hole, I may be spinning all Your wheels, perhaps I should get new boots.

So do You guys , when You buy a 3 to 5 bill pair do You all toss in an after market liner or foot bed or do the new boots come with real good ones already ?

[SteveInOregon]

Moldable liners, foot beds, ankle pads, shell mods etc are all solving different issues. Start with foot beds then get liners. That said, as most current hard boots come with a moldable liner there isn't really much to consider there, eh?

Take the advice- try on different shells, get footbeds, have the liners molded and consult a bootfitter who can help with specific pressure/ volume/ shell issues.

Had to argue with someone suggesting you treat your feet well.

Argue ?, no not at all , in fact I was having a nice pleasant conversation and learning experience we chated for almost an hour.;)

[Mr.E]

New boots would likley still "require" a new footbed. The stock stuff is terrible, and even the $50 are a huge step up.

If you are happy and pain free now just roll with it.

[SteveInOregon]

New boots would likley still "require" a new footbed. The stock stuff is terrible, and even the $50 are a huge step up.

If you are happy and pain free now just roll with it.

Thank You for Your input. :)

[Miltie]

Have to agree with the boot Yoda. Start with footbeds. You will probably be amazed how much they can improve your stock boots. Been using some form of custom footbeds for the last 22-23 years and wouldn't consider riding without them.

Currently using Superfeet full cork insoles which run about $160 in my current location. Had good luck with the full corks on maybe the last 4 pairs of hard boots. Using some Deeluxe thermoform version available in Japan in my softboots.

Slapped some stock Superfeet foot beds in my wife's Deeluxe Spa hard boots and she was like "Wow".

As Mr. E says, even the $50 pairs make a nice difference.

Shop around and maybe you can find something less than $300.

Also, there have been some previous threads regarding footbeds that you can mold yourself at home. Never tried myself but maybe worth a look.

[Chris Houghton]

None of the reputable shops around here will mold liners unless you have a custom footbed. The custom footbeds start around $80 and go up from there, can be done at the same time that the liners are cooked.

I can't imagine riding with a standard or aftermarket footbed, tried a few times years ago and the pain was horrible. Custom footbeds were a revelation. And yes, with this combination you don't need to cinch the straps up super tight, can wear the boots all day without adjustment, and don't need to release the buckles on the lift ride up.

[Mike T]

Steve, what Yoda says about your boots feeling so "right" that you never think about them is true. My personal Boot Yoda:

http://www.footform.com/

I am very lucky to have this guy a mile from my home. Having said that, I've worked with other fitters before and none of them hold a candle to Randall. If you're ever in Bend, stop in.

[b0ardski]

+1 that the majority of stock footbeds are crap.

The best custom molded liners in the world won't do the job if the foundation under you foot lacks proper support.

I've taken decently supportive footbeds (molded thru heavy use) out of my old skiboots to replace the crap ones in new hardboots a couple of times and its a vast improvement over stock garbage.

If your willing to throw $500 at new boots why are you unwilling to spend $100-200 on high quality custom beds that will breathe new life into old boots and bring new boots/liners to full potential.

Every builder knows you can't hold up the roof without a supportive foundation.

Your putting the cart before the horse, you might get your veggies to market eventually but it won't be a fun ride.

[MUD]

One exception is, if the boot got very little use and is just sitting in storage like my Raichle comps (now FT); anyone interested can contact me.

Plastics degrade with exposure to oxygen.....

I know you have a lot of experience with this Bola, so I am not arguing, just pointing out that in the long run you are still better off buying new (non NOS) boots.

[Terryw]

Hard to go wrong by upgrading your footbed. Get a good one, and you can transfer it to your new boots if and when you do decide to upgrade. But that should be the first step before you change or upgrade anything else. If you like the footbed, but still think you need to improve the fit of the boots, particularly in the heel cup, you can add pads that take up space in the boot. Any decent boot fitter will have these type of materials on hand. If you want to do it your self, you could go to Tognar's site and find all kinds of info and supplies for boot fitting. You wold be looking at the "Narrowing Pads".

http://www.tognar.com/boot_heater_warmer_fitting_dryer_canting_dryers_ski_snowboard.html

They range from 4.00 to 6.00 per pair, depending on which area is troublesome.

If that doesn't do it, and you still want to keep your current boots, then get a thermo flex liner from Bomber. They run 177.00. Take them to a bootfitter and have them bake them for you and will have your custom fitted boot. You could do it yourself, but it is a little difficult the first time. You can find the details on "home baking" here on Bomber if you are adventurous.

The thermo fit liners will also pack out over time (all liners do). When they start to get packed out again, just have them baked again. This can be done multiple times.

Not sure how much you would want to spend on an old pair of boots. These steps are certainly cheaper then a new pair.

[SteveInOregon]

Steve, what Yoda says about your boots feeling so "right" that you never think about them is true. My personal Boot Yoda:

http://www.footform.com/

I am very lucky to have this guy a mile from my home. Having said that, I've worked with other fitters before and none of them hold a candle to Randall. If you're ever in Bend, stop in.

RIGHTEOUS > I just flew over Bend / Mnt Batchelor in my buddies little experimental airplane ( partial home built ) to get a look see at what is spose to be one of the best l-o-n-g run mountains in the west, and "Ya Baby"> Bachelor looks like an Alpine style mountain with w-i-d-e & l-o-n-g runs, so if a boot Yoda is on hand there then that will be 2 reasons to do an alpine road trip :D

[SteveInOregon]

Have to agree with the boot Yoda. Start with footbeds. You will probably be amazed how much they can improve your stock boots. Been using some form of custom footbeds for the last 22-23 years and wouldn't consider riding without them.

Currently using Superfeet full cork insoles which run about $160 in my current location. Had good luck with the full corks on maybe the last 4 pairs of hard boots. Using some Deeluxe thermoform version available in Japan in my softboots.

Slapped some stock Superfeet foot beds in my wife's Deeluxe Spa hard boots and she was like "Wow".

As Mr. E says, even the $50 pairs make a nice difference.

Shop around and maybe you can find something less than $300.

Also, there have been some previous threads regarding footbeds that you can mold yourself at home. Never tried myself but maybe worth a look.

The boot Yoda who I had the nice long convo with walked me over to the foot bed's in the shoe/ boot section of the mountaineering store we were in and showed me the beds for sale there and said Here Steve these will do, the beds he was showing me were the only brand on the shelf which came in a lime green or a blue color ( if that is a description , lol ) I can remember the brand name but they cant be found at the local Walgreens drug store.

He did not mention $300 foot beds, and I think it's because I have old boots and would just buy new ones if i had to put real money into them. I am going to check the site called Foot Forum because the boot Yoda mentioned there may be the guy who dropped into Medford, could be the same guy. Anyways I have been looking at al the nice shiny new boots and i cant tell what the difference is between a $350 pair vs a pair almost twice as expensive ?

[kieran]

the beds he was showing me were the only brand on the shelf which came in a lime green or a blue color ( if that is a description , lol ) I can remember the brand name but they cant be found at the local Walgreens drug store.

could be superfeet.

[Terryw]

Your footbeds are transferable. They are an investment in comfort and control. They will not stay with your old boots when you eventually upgrade. For 215.00 you can go to Surefoot and get a custom orthotic. They use a device that measures the contour of the bottom of your foot with lots of little pins. They then mill a solid orthotic using the computer model of your foot.

http://www.skiboots.com/Orthotics_s/130.htm

The foot beds he showed you were probably Superfeet. They do a great job too. Had those for years. Finally upgraded to the surefoot orthotic and couldn't be happier.

http://www.superfeet.com/store/Green.aspx

I do ski patrol and have to stay in my boots from 7 am to 5 pm. So comfort is a must. That is why I invested in the Surefoot. For most recreational boarding, you would probably do fine with the Superfeet.

[Terryw]

If you have not already read it, you should check out the info on bootfitting over at carvers almanac:

http://www.alpinecarving.com/bootfitting.html

Covers all of this info in greater detail. Love that site!

[Jack M]

He said : Your boots should fit so good that you don't need to cinch them up ultra hard to get a good fit for speed and hard turns, and that You can keep them on ALL day, even during lunch breaks etc... and forget they are on, and only take them off at the end of the day, that is how good they should fit Steve

I'm no boot fitter and maybe I'm lucky, but that is exactly the experience I get out of my Deeluxe Thermoflex liners and my custom footbeds. He also forgot to say how warm they are. The footbeds sell for $175, and are worth every penny. Mine are still going strong 12 years later.

I had my footbeds a few years before the Thermoflexes, so I did get to use them quite a bit with stock liners. That was a tremendous improvement, but adding Thermoflexes completed the puzzle. I wouldn't ride without both. You'd have to get very lucky to find a perfect stock liner - which is probably a big part of why he tries on 20 boots.

He said boots are thee #1 most important peace of equipment, a board is a far 2nd but 90+ % of riders place the board as #1 and that is totally wrong.

I assume by "boot" he means everything that should go inside them too, including footbeds and good liners, and I agree.

[SteveInOregon]

I'm no boot fitter and maybe I'm lucky, but that is exactly the experience I get out of my Deeluxe Thermoflex liners and my custom footbeds. He also forgot to say how warm they are. The footbeds sell for $175, and are worth every penny. Mine are still going strong 12 years later.

I had my footbeds a few years before the Thermoflexes, so I did get to use them quite a bit with stock liners. That was a tremendous improvement, but adding Thermoflexes completed the puzzle. I wouldn't ride without both. You'd have to get very lucky to find a perfect stock liner - which is probably a big part of why he tries on 20 boots.

I assume by "boot" he means everything that should go inside them too, including footbeds and good liners, and I agree.

Thanks for taking the time to comment I know Your a Goo Roo when it comes to alpine.

So what brand of foot beds are in the $175 range , that is much more reasonable than $300, are the foot beds you run the same Thermo-flex brand as your liners ?

It seems that I can buy a decent pair of foot beds and when I am ready to move up to new boots I can transfer them over to the new boots.

I do that with the cheepo Dr Dingaldorph cushions liners that I get from WallyWonkaWorld, I switch them into my other street shoes, lol

If I am correct , the consensus seems to be that even tho a boot is so called "top of the line" and very pricey the liner is going to be like all other liners and not as good as aftermarket ?

I was under the impression that when You buy a Ferrari ( boot) you don't need to buy tires as they already come with Pirreli tires ( liners ) attached.

thanks:)

[Erik J]

If I am correct , the consensus seems to be that even tho a boot is so called "top of the line" and very pricey the liner is going to be like all other liners and not as good as aftermarket ?

All liners are not created equal - even year to year within the same brands in some cases. Your feet (and your bootfitter) dictate what you should put into your boots. Some people need crazy amounts of fitting to get it right - leading to custom footbeds, custom liners, reshaping the shell etc. I've heard of some people stepping right into a boot and feeling good - but I have a hard time believing that they are getting the most out of it.

I effing love my footbeds and moldable liners. I should have paid closer attention to my boots years ago but I had the board first mentality. My boots (by that I mean everything inside the boot and out) still need tweaking but I am MUCH happier with my setup now.

Email Fin a picture of your foot, maybe he can place it into a CAD and mill an aluminum/elastomer footbed for you...Finsteps :)

[SEJ]

Footbeds are a must! If your foot is average, you might be fine with the "Trim to fit" ones hanging on the rack.($50) Superfeet vacuum moldable are about $140 here. It really is a different experience when the bottom of your entire foot fits your boot. A lot of other problems go away.

To quote a boot fitter I trust " Boots shouldn't be sold with foot beds. The ones that come with them are just junk. People give you a funny look when you tell them their new boots need new foot beds"