Japan Kagayaking Video

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

That Japanese "Kagayaki Snowboard" group posted a new vid just a couple of days ago. Even though it is primarily softboot, it is worth watching. I showed the last one to my softboot friends to demonstrate the fun they could be having if they learned what an edge is.

2010 Vid at YouTube

I'll try an embed:

[Buell]

Thanks for the link, I like watching that crew.

[slopestar]

Thanks for the link, I like watching that crew.

Me too. Yes, you can carve with softies. These guys tend to over exaggerate their arm movements and squatting but still lay rail. Not much switch carving though... I wish we had wide open groomers like that in SoCal. Mt High would have :AR15firin50 gapers to weave through in every segment. More reason (king Crimson) to get a nice custom Donek freeride softie setup just for me!

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I found a couple more that are worth watching, and have more hardbooters. Not just more hardbooters, but more girls who carve.

More girls that carve, great food, great booze, wide groomers and a hot bath. I lived in Japan for 11 years and never saw a ski slope once. Looks like I missed a lot.

Too bad I can't ride an Ogasaka in the US; I'd like to try one.

[Miltie]

Excelsior,

Thanks for the links. These videos are too close to home for me. Both were filmed mainly at Dynaland, Takasu Snowpark, Ciao Ontake resorts which are my regular mountains in Gifu prefecture. Both are trailers for the full length videos which are available on DVD (about 30 minutes in length). I have the +clear DVD from 2009 and it is pretty good. Just FYI – they filmed on weekdays so that is why the groomers look wide open and with few people. Weekends are a different story. I like to call it the “human slalom”.

There is a rider named Yoshihiro Matsui on alpine gear in both videos. He now rides for SG and is a friendly dude. Great rider too and is highly ranked in the JSBA (Japan Snowboarding Association) discipline called Technical Carving. He reached Demonstrator Status last season which is a big deal.

Coincidently the + clear Absolute video has a clip of a set of black/red snowboard gates shown on a ridge. I blew my left shoulder out running those same gates in early April at Ciao Ontake with the SG Japan guys.

There will probably be some additional Japanese videos coming later this fall. The SG crew is in New Zealand now and they usually do a lot of filming there. There may also be another DVD from Carve Magazine this fall (October or November) but the details are not available yet.

Where were you located in Japan? I have been based out of Nagoya for about 7 years total on 2 work stints over the last 10 years. The Alpine scene here is unreal. Many good (some great) riders and everyone is super friendly. Have met tons of really cool people who are stoked on Alpine and carving.

Dynaland has a relatively large Alpine rider count compared to USA standards. The SG Team is based out of this resort. They have Alpine training every weekend for freecarving and race training. Koji Sugimoto of SG Japan (another friendly guy) runs the snowboard school so there is a strong Alpine vibe.

Went to Hokkaido for the first time last season and was blown away at how good the snow was. The resort we visited is called Rutsutsu which had unbelievably long groomers. It was a little on the spendy side but it was the closest thing to Utah snow I have ever seen in Japan.

FYI – Ogasaka makes some nice boards. Fin carried them a few seasons ago but I think he may be out of stock now.

Take care, Tom

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I got to Japan in early 1988 and lived that year in Mishima, Kanagawa-ken. After that I lived in various places in and around Tokyo until 1999 when I came back to Seattle. Never spent much time down in the Nagoya area except for a couple of trips to meet with Toyota people. All those years I was either too broke to do anything like snowboarding, or far too busy to get away from the office. The highest up I ever got was to one of the lower Mt. Fuji stations wearing a garbage bag as a parka. Even though I lived in that country for so long, I am poorly traveled there. I’ve seen more of Germany than Japan. Back around 1990 I did some voice-over work in a TV commercial for the Victoria ski store chain, so maybe that is the closest link I have to Japanese winter sports. Never been to Hokkaido. Never been much further north than Niigata.<o></o>

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Anyhow, from watching these and many other videos, I’ve come to believe that the oscillating, arm-flailing, wasabi-in-my-pants short carve fad is truly a Japanese phenomenon and an identifiable style. Just like the Swiss have Extremecarving, the Japanese seem to have what is described as “Short Turn” carving or even “Short Rhythm” carving. What is up with this? Is it a Gifu thing? Do Tohoku and Hokkaido carvers think that it is stupid? Will it take hold in Korea? I was first intrigued by this when I saw the Kagayaking 2 video last winter and did my best to copy their moves even though it was only my second season of snowboarding and the first in hardboots. Now I think I’ll work on it some more this coming season, with the goal of getting so good at it that people run up to me and ask: “Dude, are you from Japan? Or are you too brain damaged to complete a full carve?” I even found a cool series of Snowboard “umatech” tutorials by askkachan, including this one on doing the Short Rhythm on the steeps.<o></o>

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<o></o>Japan has freecarving competitions? I was floored by this

shot at Ciao Ontake that seem to show a semi-formal “technical” competition. So this is all about technical carving? I wonder how points are scored.<o></o>

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Is there any place in the US that has a competition like this? I doubt it. How common are these in Japan? Japan has its own magazine devoted to snowboard carving? Otaku! I used to read Rajio Raifu to learn about phreaking ISDN phone booths.<o></o>

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<o></o>Good to hear from someone that lives there. Ever run into Pico Iyer? I wonder if that guy really lives in Kyoto. <o></o>

[Miltie]

Most Japanese riders tend to use their arms to establish a rhythm for the lower body to follow (kinda like skiers use poles for rhythm). I think this taught in the "approved curriculum" for the JSBA teaching method. My style is more upright with my upper body quiet as I was taught to carve by some Euros some 20 plus years ago. I get many comments from the locals that I need to move my arms more. Have actually seen some racers using their front arm as a pendulum in the gates. From my experience, Japanese riders tend to be very focused on technique so I have to give them credit for trying to "perfect" their skills.

The short carve is drill that is practiced in the early stages of learning to carve. Their drills eventually have the rider hold carve much like a cross over turn - so it progresses from the short carve. I have seen a lot of racers use the short carve as a warm up for SL courses. This is not just a Gifu thing. Attended a 1 day camp there where we started with short carve drills as a warm up and moved into cross under turns. My Nihongo is weak at best so there was probably an explanation of why this is done that I missed.

Technical Carving...... Not really an expert on the rules. My understanding is that the rider is required to make a certain amount of cross over and cross under turns during the run. I have not seen a contest in person - only videos. Never seen it in the US either. That contest at Ciao you posted links for looks to be from last season. I roasted my shoulder one run over to the left.

You must have been here during the winter sports boom years. Heard it was popular for most people to hit the slopes a few times per season. Everything was super expensive and the resorts were built up then. Now many resorts are about bankrupt and just scraping by. Most of the boomers have lost interest and the younger people have less money and found the internet.

On my first stint here I got about 30 days on the slopes per year plus at least 2 trips to Mammoth in CA. Put many kilometers on my Hiace 4X4 in those 3 years (89,000 k's) going snowboarding or surfing. Got to see a lot of cool places and beautiful country. These days it is a stretch to get 20 days on the slopes. My kids are now snowboarding so it is easier sell to my Managing Director (wife). My wife is now riding alpine gear too. Hoping for a good season this upcoming winter - snow and work schedule permitting.

If you ever make it over in the winter, check out either the previously mentioned resorts in Gifu or Echo Valley/Royal Hill in Nagano (close to Suwa city) if you want to meet many alpine riders.

[slopestar]

Most Japanese riders tend to use their arms to establish a rhythm for the lower body to follow

There is one sequence where the rider is doing fully extended push pull type turns that shows the benefit of using his arms to initiate and transition edges from turn to turn. Looks sweet. I come from the Tom Curren surf style so I try to be quiet with arms and upper body but usually resort to leading with the arms when necessary. It all just shows that softbooters can carve hard and well without the need to use alpine dedicated gear.

I will be spending much more time on my alpine gear this winter but I am leaning towards refining my soft setup so that I can push the softboot carving to a higher level. New deck from Donek will become a must as the Burton custom I have been riding will not cut the mustard.

[softbootsurfer]

Every Turn starts with the hands when Carving on a Snowboard, Skateboard

or Surfboard and how much exaggeration plays into this is your particular style...

some fine examples here...

All the turns done in the water, on the concrete and across the groom

feed one another and the flow we seek...:)

[slopestar]

That Japanese "Kagayaki Snowboard" group posted a new vid just a couple of days ago. Even though it is primarily softboot, it is worth watching. I showed the last one to my softboot friends to demonstrate the fun they could be having if they learned what an edge is.

2010 Vid at YouTube

I'll try an embed:

2:55 into the 2009 video is the segment I was referencing. 5 seconds of utter sweetness! Love the Curren at sandspit!

[Jack M]

Every Turn starts with the hands when Carving on a Snowboard, Skateboard

or Surfboard and how much exaggeration plays into this is your particular style...

This is incorrect. You will not find any accomplished alpine instructor or race coach who will agree with this.

[slopestar]

This is incorrect. You will not find any accomplished alpine instructor or race coach who will agree with this.

I have always led with the leading shoulder. That is softboot. When I first got on an alpine board it was holding bamboo parallel to snow and perpendicular to the fall line, What is the answer???

[Jack M]

I have always led with the leading shoulder. That is softboot. When I first got on an alpine board it was holding bamboo parallel to snow and perpendicular to the fall line, What is the answer???

I hope you meant to say bamboo perpendicular to the direction of the board, not the fall line. Facing the fall line is bad because it is, well, not really possible on toeside, and on heelside it would cause you to open up and "sit" on the turn while letting the board rotate underneath you. Not good.

Sliding, skidding, or pushing a board around is another discussion, but carves start with the ankles and toes and move up the chain from there. As long as your body alignment/position is good, your hands don't even need to be part of the equation. The guys in these videos are good carvers, but they are just using their hands to be stylish. They would probably deny that, but when you get right down to it it's true. They could do everything they're doing without waving their hands around.

Of course for learning good body position, it is helpful to keep your hands in front of you where you can see them at all times while carving.

[Buell]

carves start with the ankles and toes

Wanted to pull this part out.

On easy slopes you can probably get away with starting a carve with any part of the body you want. As the slope gets steeper, it quickly becomes critical to start the carve with the ankles and toes.

That is wild that they have freecarve competitions!

[BobD]

My take on the arm movements is that this a common movement in ski carving. Arms have considerable weight, and moving them up and down can increase, or decrease edge pressure. The Carving Cup ski racers drop their arms into the turn and raise them in the last third of the turn. The double pole plant in GS ski racing has a similar effect. I learned this from exaggerating a certain carvers up/down arm movements when I was learning to carve an alpine board.

[Buell]

My take on the arm movements is that this a common movement in ski carving. Arms have considerable weight, and moving them up and down can increase, or decrease edge pressure. The Carving Cup ski racers drop their arms into the turn and raise them in the last third of the turn. The double pole plant in GS ski racing has a similar effect. I learned this from exaggerating a certain carvers up/down arm movements when I was learning to carve an alpine board.

Absolutely. Arm movement also goes into the shoulders and has a lot of effect. I find what you describe defiinitely applies to snowboard carving. Watch a skilled snowboard racer use the upper body and arms, along with a big push from the legs, to pump out of a turn.

The issue here is that if you are using it (hands, arms, upper body) to initiate a carve or a change in direction, you are really limiting yourself and the runs you can ride.

[slopestar]

So true. The exaggerated freestyle skidder that twists left to go right and vice versa. The endless never-carve! i like to keep the upper body and arms relaxed and at my sides but i hate the instinct to reach for the snow especially on toeside carves or when really pushing it...This year while working on technique as well as not reaching for the snow might be fun?...I have been lloking for a gateway board... I found the cheap alternative to a new custom deck or new boots. A 165 burton fusion "barn find" only ridden a couple times in the demo/rental rafters of a very well known shop. Now if I can get it for a song and a dance. Any opinions? I have dabbled in carving boards for 20 years/always one in the quiver but never dedicated to it. Currently quiver is a 162 ultra prime /burton race/freecarves and megaflex( both boots are sad for true alpine riding) And a custom 62/with flows. I figure this could be the go-between ride that will keep me going in the hardboot direction...

[Buell]

i hate the instinct to reach for the snow especially on toeside carves or when really pushing it...This year while working on technique as well as not reaching for the snow might be fun?...

It is hard to overcome that instinct. What I find amazing is when you do catch yourself reaching for the snow during the carve, then pull up and away from the snow with your upper body and hand (more angulated). The force you gain on the edge is incredible and the board really hooks up.

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

It has been noted in this thread that exaggerated arm-waving is an unnecessary and purely cosmetic aspect of the Japanese “short turn” carving style. We dispute such observations and cite scientific research on the unique Japanese muscular-skeletal form from which this style arose. The arm movements occur organically in resonance with the more compact Japanese physique and thus enable the full-body pendulum effect not demonstrated by riders of any other nationality on YouTube or any other video site except maybe for that one Russian guy who is clearly intoxicated. We disavow all connections to the Russian hunched-over “gorilla” short turn style. Foreign observers will be excused for not being able to appreciate the synergy between form and function in the Japanese style. North American riders, particularly Americans, with their “differently” shaped bodies and unrestrained consumption of Mad-Cow Disease-ridden American beef are particularly unqualified to judge this unique development in snowboarding. Just as the Japanese digestive tract is unsuited for dry-farmed Californian short-grain rice, research indicates that our citizens must be protected from unsuitable foreign imports of alpine carving gear. To be enacted immediately, all carving gear manufactured in the USA or Canada will be subject to a 100% duty until they can be adapted to the right-handed Japanese snow crystals and the tighter tolerances of our micro-polished alloy binding screws. A testing protocol will be developed to certify boards suitable for import. Manufacturers will submit each model in each length for testing in order to obtain a license to sell during the next season. The fee for testing will be One Million Yen per board, per year. We are also developing a Short Turn Carve instructor’s permit that can be obtained by those who can demonstrate the appropriate arm-based skills. Requirements include Japanese citizenship, so no gaijin need apply.

Happy for your enjoy carving life. Fathead Produce Since 2007.

[slopestar]

It has been noted in this thread that exaggerated arm-waving is an unnecessary and purely cosmetic aspect of the Japanese “short turn” carving style. We dispute such observations and cite scientific research on the unique Japanese muscular-skeletal form from which this style arose. The arm movements occur organically in resonance with the more compact Japanese physique and thus enable the full-body pendulum effect not demonstrated by riders of any other nationality on YouTube or any other video site except maybe for that one Russian guy who is clearly intoxicated. We disavow all connections to the Russian hunched-over “gorilla” short turn style. Foreign observers will be excused for not being able to appreciate the synergy between form and function in the Japanese style. North American riders, particularly Americans, with their “differently” shaped bodies and unrestrained consumption of Mad-Cow Disease-ridden American beef are particularly unqualified to judge this unique development in snowboarding. Just as the Japanese digestive tract is unsuited for dry-farmed Californian short-grain rice, research indicates that our citizens must be protected from unsuitable foreign imports of alpine carving gear. To be enacted immediately, all carving gear manufactured in the USA or Canada will be subject to a 100% duty until they can be adapted to the right-handed Japanese snow crystals and the tighter tolerances of our micro-polished alloy binding screws. A testing protocol will be developed to certify boards suitable for import. Manufacturers will submit each model in each length for testing in order to obtain a license to sell during the next season. The fee for testing will be One Million Yen per board, per year. We are also developing a Short Turn Carve instructor’s permit that can be obtained by those who can demonstrate the appropriate arm-based skills. Requirements include Japanese citizenship, so no gaijin need apply.

Happy for your enjoy carving life. Fathead Produce Since 2007.

Um ya? :boxing_sm:barf::(

Bring your boards and your arms...lets ride! Put up or shut up...

[slopestar]

It is hard to overcome that instinct. What I find amazing is when you do catch yourself reaching for the snow during the carve, then pull up and away from the snow with your upper body and hand (more angulated). The force you gain on the edge is incredible and the board really hooks up.

I do agree with the pull/g force you get from that. Not over exagggerating but pulling up and out and diving back into the next toe-side. I definitely utilize the arms when initiating in bumps

[jburrill]

Snowboarding is a rebel sport. We dont conform to rules or regulations. Especially regading technique.

[jetkin]

It has been noted in this thread that exaggerated arm-waving is an unnecessary and purely cosmetic aspect of the Japanese “short turn” carving style. We dispute such observations and cite scientific research on the unique Japanese muscular-skeletal form from which this style arose. The arm movements occur organically in resonance with the more compact Japanese physique and thus enable the full-body pendulum effect not demonstrated by riders of any other nationality on YouTube or any other video site except maybe for that one Russian guy who is clearly intoxicated. We disavow all connections to the Russian hunched-over “gorilla” short turn style. Foreign observers will be excused for not being able to appreciate the synergy between form and function in the Japanese style. North American riders, particularly Americans, with their “differently” shaped bodies and unrestrained consumption of Mad-Cow Disease-ridden American beef are particularly unqualified to judge this unique development in snowboarding. Just as the Japanese digestive tract is unsuited for dry-farmed Californian short-grain rice, research indicates that our citizens must be protected from unsuitable foreign imports of alpine carving gear. To be enacted immediately, all carving gear manufactured in the USA or Canada will be subject to a 100% duty until they can be adapted to the right-handed Japanese snow crystals and the tighter tolerances of our micro-polished alloy binding screws. A testing protocol will be developed to certify boards suitable for import. Manufacturers will submit each model in each length for testing in order to obtain a license to sell during the next season. The fee for testing will be One Million Yen per board, per year. We are also developing a Short Turn Carve instructor’s permit that can be obtained by those who can demonstrate the appropriate arm-based skills. Requirements include Japanese citizenship, so no gaijin need apply.

Happy for your enjoy carving life. Fathead Produce Since 2007.

Very funny, spot on send-up of Nihonjinron.

That said, it's certainly true that many Japanese people's legs are shorter in proportion to the rest of their bodies. When I lived in Tokyo I'd often find myself sitting next to somebody, looking them right in the eye, only to find I was half a foot taller when we stood. I'm not a good enough carver to have a worthwhile opinion about the Japanese arm waving, but doesn't it make sense that their technique would reflect differences in their body proportions?

[leeho730]

It has been noted in this thread that exaggerated arm-waving is an unnecessary and purely cosmetic aspect of the Japanese “short turn” carving style. We dispute such observations and cite scientific research on the unique Japanese muscular-skeletal form from which this style arose. The arm movements occur organically in resonance with the more compact Japanese physique and thus enable the full-body pendulum effect not demonstrated by riders of any other nationality on YouTube or any other video site except maybe for that one Russian guy who is clearly intoxicated. We disavow all connections to the Russian hunched-over “gorilla” short turn style. Foreign observers will be excused for not being able to appreciate the synergy between form and function in the Japanese style. North American riders, particularly Americans, with their “differently” shaped bodies and unrestrained consumption of Mad-Cow Disease-ridden American beef are particularly unqualified to judge this unique development in snowboarding. Just as the Japanese digestive tract is unsuited for dry-farmed Californian short-grain rice, research indicates that our citizens must be protected from unsuitable foreign imports of alpine carving gear. To be enacted immediately, all carving gear manufactured in the USA or Canada will be subject to a 100% duty until they can be adapted to the right-handed Japanese snow crystals and the tighter tolerances of our micro-polished alloy binding screws. A testing protocol will be developed to certify boards suitable for import. Manufacturers will submit each model in each length for testing in order to obtain a license to sell during the next season. The fee for testing will be One Million Yen per board, per year. We are also developing a Short Turn Carve instructor’s permit that can be obtained by those who can demonstrate the appropriate arm-based skills. Requirements include Japanese citizenship, so no gaijin need apply.

Happy for your enjoy carving life. Fathead Produce Since 2007.

That's pretty funny... :lol:

Anyway, I'm told that "hugging the friend" is a bad form, so I've been trying to minimize flapping the arms (well, except when extremecarving). Or maybe I'm becoming old and conservative...

[Flywalker]

Went to Hokkaido for the first time last season and was blown away at how good the snow was. The resort we visited is called Rutsutsu which had unbelievably long groomers. It was a little on the spendy side but it was the closest thing to Utah snow I have ever seen in Japan.

Rusutsu is my home resort!