kieran Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 What about the drunk guys that drive into things/people? Or the snowboarders that hit little kids? I've heard these arguments before from smokers defending their right to smoke.i don't disagree here; we all have the right to do whatever the hell we please with our bodies. when it starts affecting other people though .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 I grew up in a tiny house with both parents smoking a couple packs a day...my brother, sister and I were all smoking by the timewe were 14 years old...though we all quit years later we were addicted to and affected by being raised in a home filled with smoke. That's a damn shame, I feel bad for you. Smokers, Junkies, Obese people, softbooters all seem to be on your list Jack. Yep. Except for softbooters of course. The serious consequences you speak of are evidentall around you in the signs of depression by people who are unable to break away from their addictions. Fine, that still doesn't mean I should have to pay for people's deliberate self destruction. By "serious consequences" I just mean they should have to pay more. Like via higher taxes. You keep coming back towe need to draw the line somewhere and I am glad you are not the one who is in charge of that... I'll bet. What about the drunk guys that drive into things/people? There are countries with extremely low rates of drunk driving and related accidents because they have real punishment for doing so. Or the snowboarders that hit little kids? You accept the risk of that possibility when you buy your lift ticket and get on a chairlift. Don't like it? Don't do it. I've heard these arguments before from smokers defending their right to smoke. The right to smoke is a laughable figment of imagination. It exists only inside the homes of smokers, and only if they have no kids. As Teddy Roosevelt put it, "your right to extend your fist ends at the tip of my nose". This is why there is a right to drink responsibly. As soon as your drinking injures someone else, then it's no longer a right. fyi, I am in favor of legalizing marijuana. Some smokers are quite aware of the effects of second-hand smoke and are quite courteous to go outside/away from non-smokers. In my experience this appears to be less than 1% of smokers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transistor Rhythm Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Fine, that still doesn't mean I should have to pay for people's deliberate self destruction. By "serious consequences" I just mean they should have to pay more. Like via higher taxes. So if the government would put enough extra taxes on liquor and cigarettes to cover the healthcare costs it would be fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Is there any defense for drinking? It is very easy to drink responsibly such that it has very little effect on yourself and no effect on others. Or smoking pot? Or gambling? Or snowboarding through trees? The jury is still out as to whether pot is addictive, but it is certainly less addictive than nicotine, so it does not victimize people nearly as much. But I would also say there is no right to smoke anything in public. Gambling, it's your money. Snowboarding trees does not put anyone else in danger. For the record, I HATE smoking as I'm asthmatic. But when it comes to 'rights' all of the above are in the same boat - they're all different shades of grey. No they are not, not even close. Well, pot is close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 What harm does someone smoking by themselves away from anyone else do to others? If someone gambles/drinks away their life's savings, are their spouse/children not affected? These are the opposite but similarly extreme examples to what you are stating. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm of the belief that there are very few black-and-white, right-and-wrong situations in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 So if the government would put enough extra taxes on liquor and cigarettes to cover the healthcare costs it would be fine? Actually, the figure that cigarettes would have to be taxed to offset costs to society incurred by smoking would put a pack of cigarettes at about $11 a pack. That's expensive enough to encourage a black-market industry. In the UK, the NHS restricts cardiac procedures to non-smokers and it would be easy to check one's smoking status by measuring blood cotinine levels. In Germany, you drive drunk, you lose your license for good. Is that enforcable in this country when driving is considered a right? I'd love to restrict access to care for obese patients but, when my patients have to commute 2-3 hours daily to work, work 10-12 hours a day and are still worried about losing their jobs, and live in suburbs not designed for pedestrian traffic, I have to believe them when they say they can't exercise on a routine basis. As for sports-related injuries-those are cheap to treat. Expensive is the obese diabetic with vascular disease who needs heart surgery. An insurance company will happily pay for a shoulder reconstruction because an athlete doesn't tend to need heart surgery or dialysis. Actually, me, as the ER doc working at 2 am, attributes a lot of the BS I get to lack of common sense and lack of family support. I spend a lot of time teaching parents how to raise children. What happened to grandma? Maybe she lives in another state or maybe she's out on a date? Why are you having chest pain? Your doctor prescribed something you can't afford? You got drunk and rolled your car? Why'd you drink so much? Your friends tease you? You need different friends. And so on... I don't want to decide who's decent-I'm certainly not at least half the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 In the UK, the NHS restricts cardiac procedures to non-smokers and it would be easy to check one's smoking status by measuring blood cotinine levels.this is actually at the discretion of the physician, but it's a universally applied condition. if your 'social' entertainments screw your body up, you need to quit them before you get replacement organs. that even applies to obesity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 And then there's scientists who want to study Ozzie Osborne to figure out why he's been able to survive the rock and roll lifestyle for so long... As quoted by a poster on Huffpost, "because he's the f*cking prince of darkness"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 What harm does someone smoking by themselves away from anyone else do to others? None. However in a society where other people are forced to pay for that person's healthcare, suddenly it is everyone's business who is smoking and who is not. Because a regular smoker is effectively guaranteed to have more health problems than a non-smoker. That's not fair to the non-smokers. If the higher healthcare costs of smokers are completely offset by taxes on tobacco, then it's fair, and people can smoke away in their homes all they want. If someone gambles/drinks away their life's savings, are their spouse/children not affected? These are the opposite but similarly extreme examples to what you are stating. Yes, but just because someone drinks, that does not necessarily equate to higher healthcare costs and negatively impacting others. Excessive drinking/alcoholism sure, moderate drinking no. Smoking DOES equate to higher healthcare costs, and most of the time it impacts others. Very different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Actually, the figure that cigarettes would have to be taxed to offset costs to society incurred by smoking would put a pack of cigarettes at about $11 a pack. That's expensive enough to encourage a black-market industry. I've heard in Mass that cigs cost about $9. In the UK, the NHS restricts cardiac procedures to non-smokers and it would be easy to check one's smoking status by measuring blood cotinine levels. impressive. In Germany, you drive drunk, you lose your license for good. Is that enforcable in this country when driving is considered a right? driving is not considered a right here, hence licensing and registration. it is just very difficult to live or work anywhere but in or very near a city without a motor vehicle. I'd love to restrict access to care for obese patients but, when my patients have to commute 2-3 hours daily to work, work 10-12 hours a day and are still worried about losing their jobs, and live in suburbs not designed for pedestrian traffic, I have to believe them when they say they can't exercise on a routine basis. I empathize with that. But they can also put the fork down. And then there's scientists who want to study Ozzie Osborne to figure out why he's been able to survive the rock and roll lifestyle for so long. There are exceptions to every rule. The guy we bought our house from was 92 and a lifelong smoker. He was sharp and able bodied. He also didn't have a wrinkle on his face. Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 driving is not considered a right here, hence licensing and registration. it is just very difficult to live or work anywhere but in or very near a city without a car. Driving is considered a right here-any halfway decent defense attorney will mention inability to work or provide for his/her family at a hearing. You bring up fees and registration-in almost all cases, those are actually a form of taxation to pay for road improvements and the like. I empathize with that. But they can also put the fork down. Unfortunately, humans by and large are social eaters. They eat at certain times and with certain social cues and only very rarely when they are actually hungry. Humans all want to belong to the "clean plate club" and will polish off everything that is served to them. I'll spare you the HFCS rant for now... Believe me, as someone who's found food in fat folds of ER patients, I wish obesity was a simple as "push away from the table". I've purposely have never parted with my poorly functioning gallbladder for that reason-I get sick if I eat too much. The reality for the rest of humanity is that we, as a species, are designed to drop our metabolic needs at times of famine. What served us well on the plains of Africa is killing us now. The answer is exercise but, at times, that flies in the face of the expectations of corporate America, especially now with about 12 months in a row of record high productivity levels and still no job recovery. And then you have the people who eat or drink because of stress. I feel that our substance abuse problem, in many ways, is a reflection of how dysfunctional our society has become. I used to joke "Arbeit macht Frei" during my residency, now I wonder if that doesn't apply to everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Driving is considered a right here-any halfway decent defense attorney will mention inability to work or provide for his/her family at a hearing. You bring up fees and registration-in almost all cases, those are actually a form of taxation to pay for road improvements and the like. I meant that it is not a right in that it can be revoked by the state. Unfortunately, humans by and large are social eaters. They eat at certain times and with certain social cues and only very rarely when they are actually hungry. Humans all want to belong to the "clean plate club" and will polish off everything that is served to them. I'll spare you the HFCS rant for now...Believe me, as someone who's found food in fat folds of ER patients, I wish obesity was a simple as "push away from the table". I've purposely have never parted with my poorly functioning gallbladder for that reason-I get sick if I eat too much. The reality for the rest of humanity is that we, as a species, are designed to drop our metabolic needs at times of famine. What served us well on the plains of Africa is killing us now. The answer is exercise but, at times, that flies in the face of the expectations of corporate America, especially now with about 12 months in a row of record high productivity levels and still no job recovery. And then you have the people who eat or drink because of stress. I feel that our substance abuse problem, in many ways, is a reflection of how dysfunctional our society has become. I used to joke "Arbeit macht Frei" during my residency, now I wonder if that doesn't apply to everyone Agreed. I don't know what the policy is or will be, but if an obese person or a smoker pays the same for healthcare as me (5'11" 175lbs, 110/70), that's just not fair. I know, genetics, metabolism, but at the end of the day there is that pesky first law of Thermodynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekempmeister Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Isn't it the case, counter-intuitively, that smokers and heavy drinkers aren't really all that taxing on the "system" because they pay in for so long and die before they realize the benefit? Also, please consider that the countless billions paid to states by Tobacco for these very reasons has been almost universally squandered on things unrelated. That is criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Isn't it the case, counter-intuitively, that smokers and heavy drinkers aren't really all that taxing on the "system" because they pay in for so long and die before they realize the benefit? That sounds very dubious. I'd need to see data. Also, please consider that the countless billions paid to states by Tobacco for these very reasons has been almost universally squandered on things unrelated. That is criminal. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekempmeister Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 I understand the skepticism. It sounds like Tobacco sponsored "science". However, if the life expectancy in the US is near 80 and smokers' are cutting 10 to 15 years off of that...... Virtually everyone is getting to the age of eligibility for SSI and the smokers obviously are collecting a significantly smaller portion. This is what the argument is predicated on and no doubt is overly simplistic. Nonetheless, I think it's certainly worth considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 I understand the skepticism. It sounds like Tobacco sponsored "science". However, if the life expectancy in the US is near 80 and smokers' are cutting 10 to 15 years off of that...... Virtually everyone is getting to the age of eligibility for SSI and the smokers obviously are collecting a significantly smaller portion. This is what the argument is predicated on and no doubt is overly simplistic. Nonetheless, I think it's certainly worth considering. I'd be very surprised if smokers' shorter lifespan (whatever it actually is, 65 sounds very young) offsets the costs of lung cancer, mouth cancer, breast cancer (smoking = #1 cause), emphysema, COPD, chronic bronchitis, heart problems, and whatever else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbass Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 I think smokers just use up their time in the health care system earlier. If you imagine that the last 15 years of someone's life is the most expensive, health care wise, then they live it from 50-65 instead of 65-80. You see some pretty young people in the hospital with smoking related health problems. I have to admit smoking is something that really gets me upset these days. I used to smoke and quitting was the hardest thing I've ever done. I recognize that i will probably pay for my stupidity and addiction at some point in my life. You just can't seem to escape smokers anywhere you go. You can be driving behind someone who is smoking and breathe in their second hand smoke. I deal with kids every day whose parents/guardians smoke around them all of the time. The kids smell like ashtrays. There's a special place in hell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 You just can't seem to escape smokers anywhere you go. Yesterday evening I saw something that just left me standing there, slack jawed and speechless...Three of us were cooling down after after a skating session on our favorite trail when out of nowhere there appears a small group of obese elderly scooting around on 'power chairs' and smoking cigarettes. One had an oxygen bottle. I just stood there and thought 'wtf?... WTF???' Our contributions to private and government health care programs puts these people in these chairs so there is little incentive for these people to take care of themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 I deal with kids every day whose parents/guardians smoke around them all of the time. The kids smell like ashtrays. There's a special place in hell.... A-freaking-men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 You ever notice how some peoples strength, comes from others weakness... How the person who use to smoke gets so upset about those who still do so as to use that hate to keep themselves from lighting up again... Gee, the world would be perfect if everyone was like me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 the conversation in this thread has gotten? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 I deal with kids every day whose parents/guardians smoke around them all of the time. The kids smell like ashtrays. There's a special place in hell....I was one of those kids, too. When I went away to college I came to really enjoy not being under the constant veil of smoke. Late in my college years our family needed to take an extended 'family trip' in a motor home. The plan was 500 miles east to central Wisconsin and stay a few days, then 700 miles north and stay a few days, then head back southwest over several days to end up back home. There were 4 smokers and me. By this time I had come to understand that I cannot tolerate smoke and tried to impress on everyone that their smoking was really harming me. The results were basically everyone telling me to 'man up' and get over it. After finishing our stay in Wisconsin I took my bicycle off the front of the rig, threw a few things into my panniers and pedaled back home. Nice ride... cleared my head AND my lungs. I still hold some resentment towards my parents and siblings for being so indifferent to my needs and their ridiculing me for protecting myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbass Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 You ever notice how some peoples strength, comes from others weakness...How the person who use to smoke gets so upset about those who still do so as to use that hate to keep themselves from lighting up again... Gee, the world would be perfect if everyone was like me... Kinda true. Smoking is an addiction. I actually didn't think I would get hooked when I started. :rolleyes: In many instances I think alcohol is the same way. We see it as a social thing and fun way to pass time and eventually it continues until it is out of control. I totally understand this as I think i have a very addictive personality. I don't drink or smoke anymore but i struggle with overeating and unhealthy eating. It is an addiction. I don't think it is just a weakness for me. I don't hate people for smoking though. I hate the big companies and governments that perpetuate it for money. I do hate people that expose helpless children to something dangerous and eventually life threatening. When i think back to my smoking days, I am amazed at how unaware I was of how it affected others and in many situations i just didn't care about that over fuelling my addiction. I think that for people who do not struggle with addictions it can be easy to see them as just weaknesses but it is more than that. It is addiction. Addiction often leads to crimes and I include exposing helpless kids to second hand smoke as a crime. I know i sound extreme. I guess this is a perspective thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4c_wI6kQyE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4c_wI6kQyE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Kinda true.Smoking is an addiction. I actually didn't think I would get hooked when I started. :rolleyes: In many instances I think alcohol is the same way. We see it as a social thing and fun way to pass time and eventually it continues until it is out of control. I totally understand this as I think i have a very addictive personality. I don't drink or smoke anymore but i struggle with overeating and unhealthy eating. It is an addiction. I don't think it is just a weakness for me. I don't hate people for smoking though. I hate the big companies and governments that perpetuate it for money. I do hate people that expose helpless children to something dangerous and eventually life threatening. When i think back to my smoking days, I am amazed at how unaware I was of how it affected others and in many situations i just didn't care about that over fuelling my addiction. I think that for people who do not struggle with addictions it can be easy to see them as just weaknesses but it is more than that. It is addiction. Addiction often leads to crimes and I include exposing helpless kids to second hand smoke as a crime. I know i sound extreme. I guess this is a perspective thing. Addictions are everywhere with everything as a potential IMHO True, True, True....I know some Tri-Athletes addicted to Endorphins and exercise to the point that all else seems excluded from their lives. The Smoking in our family was horrendous, but nothing compared to the Alcoholism and the legal drugs prescribed to my mother that I felt killed her by their overuse. It took years to realize that my parents had a disease over which they just had no control...I mean really, no alcoholic chooses that path. Addictions to things are the effects I believe that come from different causes buried deep in each of us. I know now that I am in my 60's I see that a lot more clearly... I am even addicted to looking at Bomber all the time now...when 2 years ago, Bomber did not exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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