Mounting Bindings--How Few turns Are Okay?

[scrapster]

Yeah, part of me wonders whether I should have posted any of this on Bomber. But I honestly did need the advice. Its not like I can ask my wife about these things, bless her heart.

Anyway, I'm the type of person that is honest to a fault. All my communications have been up-front.

[bjvircks]

PS- The screw in the photo is not a mounting screw. Its just there to help the camera focus on something.

You call that a "focus"???

as corey_dyck said... It's not reasonable to have that few threads in a brand new board unless it came with a correspondingly healthy discounted price. This was not a healthy discount.

From what has been said in this thread, my perspective is that the builder is telling you to keep and use a significantly sub-standard product because they cannot be bothered to make it right for you. This would be unacceptable to me, especially after spending that kind of money.

They need to get their act together. in my opinion.

[scrapster]

You call that a "focus"???

You should have seen it before I added the screw

And FYI, yes that is essentially what the manufacturer seems to be saying. Two other options are: 1. They actually think the condition is no big deal, and 2. since I imagine my boards were not the only ones out there with this problem, well, why set a costly precedent now that this has gone semi-public?

I'm trying to decide what choices I still have at this point. Since I'm feeling cranky now. Here's a gratuitous pic from the first board. (I don't know how I got it to focus so much better for this one!) BTW, I was told these inserts were still functional after the board was returned and inspected.

[kieran]

..why set a costly precedent now that this has gone semi-public?

because not all publicity is good publicity?

if a person is happy with a product, they'll tell a few folk. maybe even recommend it.

if they're unhappy with a product, they'll tell 10x as many folk, and almost certainly condemn it.

now add the internet effect.

[Chris Houghton]

I have to say that life is too short to waste time and energy screwing around to compensate for someone else's mistake, let alone the increased risk of failure due to lack of proper engagement.

Plain and simple, I would not ride it and I would tell them that it's on it's way back. Make me another and tell the kid on the drill press to back off. Look at the marks on the bottom of the inserts, he's just going hellbent until he hits bottom.

[Buell]

Yeah, part of me wonders whether I should have posted any of this on Bomber.

Yes, absolutely. We need to know these things when they happen so we can all make informed decisions about the products we buy. Since they have told you the inserts are fine, you should feel free at this point to let anyone who does not know, which company it is and let them decide if they want to purchase products from them in the future.

This is far from the first issues with quality and questionable warranty practices this company has had in the last several years. I have owned a number of their boards and consider myself very lucky to have never had any issues. I have not heard of problems recently and was hoping they were doing better. Guess not.

[scrapster]

Good point, Buell. I'm still not keen on publicizing the company's name at this point. But I'm happy to speak with anyone privately if they are looking for a board and are concerned.

[Petrol]

I've got an inquiring mind...

[scrutton]

I pulled out the front bindings when landing a jump in a BX course. The bindings were engaged with about 2 threads. I ordered up a longer set of screws from McMaster. Not had a problem since.

[scrapster]

Scrutton, how many turns were you able to get with the longer screws? That's my current problem. I can only get about 2 turns on a bare board on some inserts.

[Corey]

I mentioned it via email, but I thought it would be good to get public opinion on it too:

I would ask the company for a letter stating that the board was safe to use with 2 threads engaged with {insert binding brand here} plates and hardboots. If the manufacturer is willing to stick their neck out with such a legal letter, then perhaps we're being too conservative or they know something we don't about the strength of their inserts. If they're not willing to write such a letter, then they are not confident that it's safe - meaning they should take the board back without a fuss. No letter = send it back at their expense. As a last resort get the credit card company involved. I'd hate to do that, but won't write a letter then they don't have confidence that the product is sound and neither should you.

I have a feeling that the manufacturer has somehow missed some of the details and doesn't understand that you have only 2 turns available on the bare board. The request for the letter will focus their attention and get them to think instead of automatically saying no.

[scrutton]

Scrutton, how many turns were you able to get with the longer screws? That's my current problem. I can only get about 2 turns on a bare board on some inserts.

I'm guessing at least another 3 full turns. I ordered the bolts 1/4" longer than the originals.

[BlueB]

I would ask the company for a letter stating that the board was safe to use with 2 threads engaged with {insert binding brand here} plates and hardboots. If the manufacturer is willing to stick their neck out with such a legal letter, then perhaps we're being too conservative or they know something we don't about the strength of their inserts. If they're not willing to write such a letter, then they are not confident that it's safe - meaning they should take the board back without a fuss. No letter = send it back at their expense. As a last resort get the credit card company involved. I'd hate to do that, but won't write a letter then they don't have confidence that the product is sound and neither should you.

Very good point!

.

[bjvircks]

Scrapster...

Let me make certain I correctly understand something. On at least one insert that you plan to use for your particular binding mounting you can only get 2 full screw turns engaged in the insert and then the screw bottoms out. Several other inserts a barely better.

Is this correct?

As mentioned earlier this means that unless you tap deeper and risk cutting open the bottom of the blind insert (and hoping you actually CAN get another thread without completely wrecking the insert)... you must have perfect matching of screw length to binding disk and insert location.

Anyway... letter or no letter, I wouldn't want this board. I really think the builder should stand up, take the board back and pay you back for expenses you've incurred. my .02

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why were you paying shipping to have problems repaired on a delivered product? Why should you have to go to the expense of ordering taps that you otherwise would not need to maybe provide a half-assed fix for their problem? I would demand a full refund including all previous shipping costs and ship the board back at their expense.

[scrutton]

I'd just go over your other boards (or go to a shop, or another BOL-er), see how many full-turns your screws go into the board on those boards; then tell them that you'd like another board with somewhat the same characteristics (in terms of being able to install bindings correctly). I mean, this sounds like a somewhat fundamental problem. I wouldn't try tapping the insert further; you really don't know what you'll run into..I mean maybe if they refund your money, and tell you to keep the board/throw it away, then it would be worth a shot.

Paul

[scrutton]

I'm guessing at least another 3 full turns. I ordered the bolts 1/4" longer than the originals.

Yeah, and when I did rip the bindings out; the screws stripped; which was a good thing. So, I had them in by I'd guess about 5 turns when I was all done.

[scrapster]

Okay, I did my final, most controlled test on the inserts so far and here's what I came up with. These were all measured on a bare board--no bindings. I started counting as soon as I felt the thread catch. I had marked the screw head to measure a full 360 degree turn. I'd imagine there MAY be up to a .25 turn margin of error, either way.

An interesting and worrisome note--in some of the inserts the screw wobbled most of the way down. Then I'd give the last 1/4 turn and it would tighten. On a few others, I had to fight the screw all the way down.

Board Nose

3.5 / 2.75

3.5 / 3.25

3.25 / 3.25

4 / 3

2.75 / 3.5

3.5 / 3.5

3 / .5 (Yes, that's correct)

3.25 / 3

2.75 / 2.75

3 / 3

2.5 / 2.25

2.5 / 2.5

Board Tail

[scrapster]

Another note. Some of the inserts (like the 2.75 turn insert near the nose of the board) has almost full threads up one side, but stripped threads 1/3 of the way down on the opposite side.

Yes, I see where this is going...

[Corey]

Yes, I see where this is going...

I see a board going back. :( Better now than an epic snow day though!

[pow4ever]

i seems to be remember you post your new board on the 2011 board pr0n.

If you removed it to protect the maker. You are a better man than I.

1. If you buy a new board; you should be totally stoked about it and not worrying about how to fix it.

2. safety 1st. Letter/warranty might be good for monetary guarantee but not against possible injury. Take your money else where if they won't give you what you want.

Best of Luck!!!

--

David

[bjvircks]

Hey Scrapster... how many threads do you figure you would have if these inserts were "perfect"??

This is a thin layup board and so shorter inserts with fewer threads are to be expected. Your listing (great idea) shows several at 3.5 and one at 4 threads. I would hope the builder, knowing full well he hasn't got much thread to begin with, would be extra careful. This the best he can do??? hmmmmmm.

[bjvircks]

I just looked at the photo in post #11.

Just send it back and tell the builder to

1) quit being so chicken####

2) build the next one right

3) pay you for your time, shipping costs, etc

This cost you nearly $1,000 right? $1k for this kind of workmanship really makes me wonder.

[scrapster]

I'd say four turns would be a close to perfect insert on this board. The one that does have four turns worth of threads seems to turn forever compared to the rest. It also is the only insert with a little bit of frayed carbon fiber showing through along the edge--a sign that they didn't gouge everything bare with the drill.

The inserts with 3.5 to 3.75 turns are the ones that have just the top thread squashed. The company says on its website that one squashed thread can be expected.

[energyrail]

board should have never QC checks

If anyone cares a SAE standard sized nut is .75 of thread dia.