Does "steering" have a rolle in a pure carved turn?

[Jack M]

...turn the good tech discussion into a pissing match! Way to go.

Huh? Do the smilies not show up on your screen?

Speaking of wich, we did see some vids of both of you already...

we did? cool, where?

[carvedog]

Dang, I thought it was fairly civil.:D

"I guess you would both have to visit each other's home turf, and ride Eastern ice and Western butter."

And again, I have no desire to ride crappy snow, thats why I live where I live. A question, how many east coast to Colorado transplants do you know and how many Colorado to east coast transplants do you know? The results should be obvious.

Think Snow!

I'll be right back, I have to take a leak.

[BlueB]

I thank everyone who voted and gave good tech input/oppinion. Keep it rolling!

I also thank those who proclaimed me into a troll or questioned my intelligence ;)

Yes, I didn't expalin what I ment by steering. That was part of my question: If you felt there is steering involved in carving, please explain what is it and how YOU do it.

Here are some of the reasons for my question:

- Over the years, I noticed many members referring to "steering" or doing the things that others would describe as steering while carving. For some it means just driving the bord more aggressive with knees/feet, for some pushing the board through arc into direction of radial travel, or decambering the board into an arc tighter then the given speed and edge inclination would allow, or activelly pushing the nose (or tail) in an arc tihter (or even looser) then the current radius, while for others it just means focusing on finishing the turns, or riding differnet part of the board (pressure distribution) for different results, or using boddy rotation, or even forcing the tail and the nose to carve different paths...

- Also, I've been in few sessions with quite high ranking members of a reputable organisation. All of them insisted that steering is an important part of carving, while none expalined clearly what exactelly it implied. From one person to another, it could have ment any, or few combined, of the techniques already mentioned above.

Hopefully the Boss would chime in here too, to give his view...

In a sliding turn, it is pretty easy to distinquish between pivoting and steering. Pivoting is done with the board mostly flat (straigh), manipulated into rotational move, mostly around Z axis. Steering requires the board to "perform", so the board is inclined and bent into an arc, but independant feet/leg action manipulates (steers) the board into an arc shape different to current geometry of the edge.

In carving, pivoting is out, for obvious reasons, while the steering sounds pretty grey to me... That's my question: Explain how you steer the carve and what it means to you?

[BlueB]

Huh? Do the smilies not show up on your screen?

(vids) we did? cool, where?

Smilies do show ;) It was just a little preventative talk before it got too heated up :D

There's a bit of Snowman in Loveland vids too...

[energyrail]

Well in skiing steering is a combination of carving and pivoting. Using feet and ankles to twist(or push the tails out) the skis at the same time as using edge angle and edge pressure. forcing the skis to make a rounded turn smaller than the one it will make carving a clean railed turn.

This same sort of thing can be done on a snowboard everytime one makes a nice round slarved turn. edge angle and edge pressure at the same time as pivoting the board.

But the definition of steering is to steer something. so steering to most people would be simply turning.

So no and yes.

[Rob Stevens]

Yes.

"Steering" and "Steering Angle" are 1) an action and 2) a result.

"Steering Angle" is created when you put a rotary force into the board and it slides out, causing the tail to take a wider path than the nose.

You can use these same "steering" forces (rotation, edging, pressure, pivoting) to turn, however, without causing a skid through co-ordinated effort. In one case, it may simply be an increase in edge angle at the tail in the moment the rotary force might displace the board.

"Steering" movements don't go away when you carve. Well, they can, but then you're a sidecut rider.

"Pivot" is a funny one, too. I could ask the group "Is pivoting part of a carved turn?". Most would say "No", but what are you doing in a turn where the rider is springing off the tail to a higher line in a carved turn? This back foot pivot is completed in a clean carve, executed in the air and initiated on the nose, uphill of where the new turn would have started had a simple roll to the new edge occurred. Racers ofter do this if the turn gets too low of the desired line.

Good question, Boris.

[Rob Stevens]

I am going to very politely agree to disagree!:lol:

It all starts with the ability to lead with your eyes (head) and upper body, always.

Think Snow!

Well, I can see Jack qualifying his statement to say that you don't have to steer to carve. The "Norm" is proof.

But, disagree all you want, Snowman, You don't need anything other than edge angle to carve the sidecut. This requires no looking, leading, or anticipatory moves whatsoever.

Close your eyes, rotate in the opposite direction and even hold your COM back (open), but weight your toes, even slightly, and you will turn toeside.

[carvedog]

(open), but weight your toes, even slightly, and you will turn toeside.

And that's not a steering moment?

[Rob Stevens]

... sure, pressure is an element of steering. You won't find me saying otherwise. You could call equally pressuring the toes to create a carve "Basic Steering".

The OP, though, is asking if steering is involved in higher end carving. This is where you'll get a difference of opinion, mostly based on a riders personal experience and where you'll get into "Advanced" and "Expert" steering.

I would say that if you weight your toes by bending your knees, that you can have initiation without a rotational move, or an anticipatory move with the COM, head, or eyes. Again, this is "Isolated, Basic Carving" (meaning you only do one turn, just to see how it goes)

Most will recognize that these are inputs in line with the original, isolated "Norm". Going further, a rider at the lower intermediate level would perform the above linked and would have to anticipate the direction change. This doesn't necessarily mean rotation, but it doesn't hurt. A more solid intermediate would shift fore and aft over the board. An advanced rider would, in reverse, shift the board fore and aft under the body. At the end stage, combining this with extension / retraction of knees independently and ultimately vertical, horizontal and combination pivoting of the ankle joints creates advanced steering, which is the final definition, at the expert level.

Expert "Steering" is a co-ordinated effort of all skills. Like rudder without aileron creates a skid and aileron without rudder creates roll, rudder WITH aileron creates a turn. Blend the two inputs finely enough and you get a dynamic, carved turn (in an airplane, anyway).

[Rob Stevens]

... I do see what you're point is.

[carvedog]

No worries at all Rob. For me I don't see how "steering" can not be a part of carving.

But that may just be me......

[Rob Stevens]

You raise a good point.

"Basic Steering" is still "Steering", just the ****ty version.

[astrokel]

I thank everyone who voted and gave good tech input/oppinion. Keep it rolling!

I also thank those who proclaimed me into a troll or questioned my intelligence ;)

BlueB

Been riding in Utah for the last few days and have been riding and not reading about snowboarding.:D

Just want to make sure that my intent was clear. Sarcasm doesn't show up very well here and I should probably not employ it...:) The "troll" and "intellegence of the question" comment made was not addressed to the question itself but to some of the assumptions made about the question (that the only way to steering is to slide:rolleyes:).

In my mind that kind of means that turning a wheel on a car is not steering and the only real definition of steering would be the equivalent of a "Tokyo slide" or basically "steering" with your rear end. Just thought that whole line of thinking was a bit absurd and got kind of frustrated with it.

I don't comment much on this board but I thought it WAS an interesting question and was frustrated when the "discussion" turned a bit odd. Thanks for the poll...

[BlueB]

Astrokel, no worries, man. I was just pulling your leg, and of the few who also stated "troll". ;) Thanks for your input.

___

Rob, thank you for chiming in, too! Gret points on steering (action) vs. steering angle (result).

Funny enough, yesterday I was in a session with one of your senior employees, who is a really relaxed guy, while explaining the things very simple but with increadible clarrity! It boiled down to the same: Steering is a combination of inputs required to direct the snowboard in desired direction in desired manner!

Yeah... we could have a go at the pivoting too :D

Maybe it deserves a tread of its own?

[BlueB]

Thanks, Mike.

No, question actually wasn't how to change the radius while carving... It was to clarify the term "steering" as applied to carving. Also, to try to establish is there a single "mystical" move/acton that could be qualified as steering, or is it a combination of inputs required for the board to carve (or not carve) the desired path.

___

While one probbably could insolate some other skills as singular actions, like pivoting, or edging (angle), or pressure, it seems to be reasonable to conclude that steering is not an action, but a combination. Even when you go straight, you still steer the board to follow that path... In order to steer it one needs to change either balance, edge inclination, pressure, rotation (pivot), board twist, or any combination of those.

Therefore, I would be bold to say that steering is synonnimous for RIDING.

Also, it seems that CASI terminology refers to steering mostly as what you do with your lower boddy, while pivoting refers mostly to the upper boddy, purly to distinguish between begginer and advanced techniques, while the pivoting is actually part of the steering process and can happen higer or lower, depending on the skill and requirements of the mannouvre to be performed.

Ok, I'll stop "trolling" for now... ;) :D