Guest rick ferguson Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I've done research into board building, as a surfboard builder I understand cost and time and market value, also if it is a side deal or your sole job- that changes everything. Chech out www.snowboardmaterials.com Complete turn key jobs at 18k or a more manual set-up for around 6k. I asked them how much in material cost is a 178 alpine board with a standard lay -up , NON_ volume , meaning NOT buying a 55 gallon drum of resin, just one off pricing in materials to be at a remarkable $160.00 or less! Core's can be custom ordered and cnc cut to spec's for around $25-30. Don't be suprised if in the next couple of years I branch into the biz. As a surfboard shaper , shaping the blanks custom and by hand, no computer shaping , I don't even run close to the profit margins of these guy's. Maybe surfer's are just a bunch of cheap f--k's and low ball real well! I like the margins in doing snowboards far better than surfboards, so I'm saving my pennies from my surf sales to start up snow gear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Look at the board manufacturers of alpine. Are any of them living lifestyles of the rich and famous? I've definitely lost more time + money in Alpine than made $ - if I had to do it again...I definitely wouldn't unless I was financed to the hilt- I couldn't afford to looking back at the opportunity lost. Now could you imagine if I invested that much time and effort and in the end the product didn't work well? That's why I have had zero involvement with this production run of Madd Snowboards (other than forwarding a few previous orders from a few years back), it doesn't pay the bills. To top it all off you have to know what feels right- you have to have flexed over a thousand boards and ridden hundreds at a high level- it takes years just for that part. There is a lot more to a snowboard than just any resin, any glass, any core, and any sidecut + camber... It's about synergy...synergy of materials, synergy of design, synergy with the flex, snow, weight of rider, foot size, boot and binding dynamics, rider ability. Unfortunately.... it is also about -price of labor, currency conversions, material costs, warranty replacements, theft, lawsuits, Materials becoming suddenly unavailable/discontinued, political strife severing a supply line of soft goods, fighting the elements during a demo while sick, broken down cars in snowstorms, not being able to find an affordable hotel room before a race, factory floods, factory fires, loss of key employees,,,, etc,,,etc,,,etc... you can't even begin to think of how many boards hit the trash heap in protos before you can even sell just ONE decently performing deck. The acceptable margins for error in surfing and skateboard design are much larger. The water and pavement. are slightly variable but not so widely variable as snow. Not that you shouldn't do it...but if your motive is profit- you'd be better off with a solid 401K. ________ Wholesale vaporizer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Rick, I'll make one suggestions before you embark on this endeavor. Take a look at how many companies started making boards last year and have already failed. Then look at companies who started in the last 5 and have failed. Just as an example. There was a company here in Denver that decided to purchase all of B-Lines equipment when they went under. They paid over $100,000 for it. One year later they sold it all for less than $10,000. They couldn't make it happen. Mostly because they believed that if they turned on the machinery, the job would get done. You may not have the same problem, but there will be plenty of them. The success rate of snowboard companies is so abysmally low, it's staggering. You should make sure you know exactly what it is you're getting into before you begin. You'll want to build boards for yourself and a couple of friends for at least 3 years before you even consider trying to sell one. I talk with all the companies here in Colorado (US, Never Summer, Unity, Venture). Every single one of us agree on one point. We may have thought we'd get rich at one point, but the only reason we're still in business is because it's a passion. None of us are driving fancy cars. Some of us are even supported by our wives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boogieman Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 everything always seems easy until you have to do it yourself! And i doubt getting in to the market will be easy if you for example want to sell your boards for lets say 700 dollar everybody will buy a well known board with a good name for that price if you sell them for 300 dollars everybody will buy a board somewhere else becouse obviously your selling cheap crap and thats just one small problem im mentionning i think but i dont know anything about making snowboards but i got my own business myselfs and i know one thing whatever you do it wont be as easy as it looks And for the 160 dollar is it fully made by and assembled or do you have a little well educated monke that works for free who will do that for you? i think making bindings is 100 times easyer then making boards but i doubt you can become rich with it just my 2 cp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rick ferguson Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 As a owner of my own company and the shaper of the boards, (no hired help here) I think I have a vast knowledge of what goes into a industry. I would like to point out that I was not saying I'd be a rich man either. I don't make crap for doing surfboards in comparison to the amount of hours I put into it. Pat, I deal with the same crap as well, try to tell a complete kook that he needs a board of a certain size and thickness , with a certain template and rocker AND he comes in with a picture outa surfer magazine and say's "make me one just like this" Then when the board barely floats his sorry ass, he bad mouths your stuff and say's it "SUCKS!" My market that I rally against is huge! Rusty, Al Merrick , all the legends and local shaper's who have 30 plus years on top of my 13 shaping. My point was the cost to profit margin for materials alone vs. the retail margin is much more profitable in snowboards. I never said I was going into it to become the next BURTON , but as many may crumble, I think that there is a possibility in the alpine arena. If I shape 300 surfboards in a year and and am "LUCKY ENOUGH"to get full mark up , I'll be lucky to pull in 35k.I'd be better off just getting a job, according to your tone. Average profit on a board is about $75-100 per board. Also I never said it would be great overnight. Try hand shaping foam,once you take it off, you can't put in back on! Screw up on a 9' t-band 3-stringer andit will set ya back a chunk of change ($175.00) I got the same attitude from all the local shaper's when I said I was going to make surfboards, "it sucks", "no money" , "too much to compete with", and the best one-"YOU WON"T MAKE IT" Funny the guy that said that one has contracted me out over the last 6 years to do his hybrids, eggs and longboards, cause he say's I do a better job than him. I alway's say, "stick with what ya ride". I ride longboards, thus I make a mean one! Leave the shortboards to those that it's their cup of tea. The idea that it's complicated is over rated. I could tech talk you about, as you say "synergy" rocker, template , flex of the foam density, flex of the wood/s types of wood and the flex property. various glassing options, types of weave , carbon , kevlar, types of resins, strength to weight ratio's- All this for a board that will never see the same wave twice, so please DON"T think that I don't know what goes into selling the customer "THE PRODUCT" It's amazing how miss-informed people get about these things. I ghost shaped boards for 5 other labels in town, Amazing what JUST a logo does. I was surfing with this guy and started talk boards in the water, I did'nt tell him who I was or that I shaped boards, I asked him if he has tried the label I was riding and he said, "NA, I HEARD THEY SUCK FROM A FRIEND" well , the board between his legs was one "I" shaped for the larger label in town and he said his "RIPPED" Funny how that works, 2 years later's he's now on "my" label :) If it was that bad you guy's would close up shop as well. Maybe it's the desire for doing what WE enjoy! You have got to admit, having all those companies closing up shop , brings you more work , now does'nt it! I'm saving for the press as I speak and who knows.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 ****in go for it, rick. If you have some semi-disposable income! nothin ever worked out that wasnt tried first:) hell...hit me up when youre workin on em if you want someone to try one out:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Hey Rick I know basically nothing about surfboards... so your surfboards are hand shaped by taking a block of foam and very carefully sanding it down? That sounds like a very nice (but time consuming) setup. Do most companies just inject the foam or something? You mentioned stringers, do the longboard flex that much (i.e. does it help the turn like a snowboard with a bit of a "snap" at the end) No need to go in the super gory details if you don't feel like it. I just wondered how much cross-over in the design techniques there is (one would assume there is a decent amount). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 If you rent the "Step Into Liquid" dvd there's a short segment that shows some of what goes into making surfboards. Those guys did the main cutting using templates, then refined the edges by hand (well with help from power tools), laid up the glass and finished all by hand. Not sure if the hyooge outfits like Rusty do it that way though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill If you rent the "Step Into Liquid" dvd there's a short segment that shows some of what goes into making surfboards. Those guys did the main cutting using templates, then refined the edges by hand (well with help from power tools), laid up the glass and finished all by hand. Not sure if the hyooge outfits like Rusty do it that way though... Maybe I'll move it up a few slots... dang... sounds like a lot of hardwork... I made myself a balance board (never took woodshop at school) and then made 4 more for my friends as gifts and that already tired me out (would have been nice if I had a power sander). That is about the limit of my woodcrafting ability! Wooo... love those fumes from the varnish! Even outside, in a cool breeze my work area was a little sniff-y ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill If you rent the "Step Into Liquid" dvd there's a short segment that shows some of what goes into making surfboards. Those guys did the main cutting using templates, then refined the edges by hand (well with help from power tools), laid up the glass and finished all by hand. Not sure if the hyooge outfits like Rusty do it that way though... I've been to Rustys factory/glass shop...Rusty walks in about once a month and signs boards...he only actually shapes N.S. Guns, the rest of the boards are shaped by Ghosts...finding out who those guys are is how you get a good board without paying "Rusty" prices. In truth surfboard and snowboard manufacturing is very similar I've done both. If I had the money I'd go back to building Snowboards just because I enjoyed doing it so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 One thing I just don't understand about the surfboard industry - if you find a good shape for a particular application, why can't you automate it so you can crank out a bunch of identical boards? Is the shaping too complicated for machinery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill One thing I just don't understand about the surfboard industry - if you find a good shape for a particular application, why can't you automate it so you can crank out a bunch of identical boards? Is the shaping too complicated for machinery? actually this is done with the injection molded boards which are rather nice if lifeless feeling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr. sandman Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Wow!! Just goes to show there's nothing like a dinghy of ingenuity and a freightliner of desire! Just want to say hats off to Fergie, MADD, Donek, BOL and any others out there bustin' there knuckles to promote and proliferate the tools that let us do what we love to do!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rick ferguson Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 You don't make much money , but you make great friends, get to work barefoot and in shorts, make your own hours and best of all , it allows you to play "the starving artist" role when picking up on chick's! Although it's short lived , when they get tired of paying for dinner all the time , but it's fun while it last's. Hope everyone has a bounty of day's on the mountain and a injury free winter, got's to go shape a spicy performance longboard-see ya,rick:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Rick one thing that that you have correct is that you should stick to what you know. Your nich in surfing is longboards:D My fav BTW:D, I've surfed east coast, west coast, Austrailia, Japan and Hawaii and while some boards can be used in other places, for instance west coast and Aussie boards/waves are similar same with East coast and japanese boards/wave Hawaii boards are totally different than both and ride like sh1t in someplace like New England. If you want to start shaping snowboards, design boards that you can ride and that people you know can ride...design a better board for the place you normally ride. Maybe a carving board better able to deal with Sierra cement something halfway between an all mountain and a freecarving board for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d b Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Hey Rick who do you shape for?? Like shaping longboards ah? Trivia question: Recognize the guy in the picture? With my new board! Sweeeet!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rick ferguson Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Pictures a bit dark on his face, but I'm still looking to take a jab at guessing with a bit more info. West coast? nor-cal or so-cal? As far as the board is concerned it looks great! Is that a 1" balsa center flanked by redwood? I'm not huge on retro boards if that's what it is. I do make them, and ride they from time to time , but prefer to stay in the proggressive longboard movement. I guess it's like taking out an old burton "safari" and cruising it for fun on occasion, but it's not a everyday rider, atleast for my style of riding and surf locations. Still , they are fun and are great show pieces. Did you go with a glass-on fin or a box?:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boogieman Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 you can do anything with machinery but its probably to complicated so that the machinery would cost way to much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rick ferguson Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Sure you could shape boards with a computer machine. Over 75% of all major labels are done that way now. It's great if you want to make 100 of the same board, but my order's come in so many size range's and custom to the customer that it 's not really going to work out for me yet. Even those I've shaped for other label's that were computer shaped, still need to be finished off by hand and still come out flawed by the machinery. Shaping from the raw blanks is starting to become a lost art. Most new , upcoming shaper's are learning to do them from the computer base. I was lucky to have started when I did and work with as many as I have. Most of those I had worked for are now over 75% computer only shapes. There are two guy's that are very well known in calif, hawaii and japan, one of which told me that he only hand shaped 4 boards total last year! There are companies in china who are training old women , some whom never even seen the ocean before,to finish of computer boards. Kinda takes the "SOUL" outa it! Sure it's a cheap priced board, made by a 50 year old non-surfer! Anyone that want's to continue with this, we should open up a new thread and leave this one for those waiting for their MADDS and reviews of them, sorry guy's for getting so far off your topic's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Hi Rick, Looks as if you will be hand shaping a custom board for me in April for sure. Broke my last Heitmann yesterday at La Selva Beach. :( One down one to go for the season unless I take one of my short boards out when it gets overhead. This $1000 a year longboard habit is getting old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d b Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 That’s Hap Jacobs he doesn’t shape that much anymore but I talked him into it! I wanted a classic nose rider! I would have gone glassed-in but went with a box for conveyance and also I like to change up the fin from time to time? It’s a beast 10’-6”.. their going love me in the line up! Ha ha anyways I surf everything from short boards, to HP long boards. Hey what’s your take on the epoxy boards? I demoed one up north and did dent really like it! later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Originally posted by Donek snipped........ I talk with all the companies here in Colorado (US, Never Summer, Unity, Venture). Every single one of us agree on one point. We may have thought we'd get rich at one point, but the only reason we're still in business is because it's a passion. None of us are driving fancy cars. Some of us are even supported by our wives. [/quote I'll admit to being one of those people supported by women. Over the years I could not have possibly put as much time into Madd if it wasn't for a slew of tolerant (and some slightly intolerant) girlfriends. No lie. Many of you carvers owe the women out there more than you think- so be nice to those women of the industry leaders (on the phone- at demos, expression sessions etc..)...without them alpine might not exist at all. ________ JAGUAR XK150 PICTURE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 And Rick I don't want to discourage you from entering....(just giving you a "heads up" of what you are getting into)..in fact I would welcome it as the more start ups we have the better for Everyone in the industry. Strangley if we had 50 small, yet dedicated alpine vendors out there doing demos on each continent we would be in a lot healthier state. Strangely though...the Alpine industry always seems to suffer when the big companies come in (dumping product, pushing out smaller vendors with finance deals to the shops, and most making inferior products that turn off people to alpine). IF 50 small Alpine companies existed on each snowboard continent........... 1. There would be more hardbooters on the slopes 2. People would be able to find out info on alpine easier 3. There would be more sponsored contests and "expression sessions" 4. There wouldn't be such a drought in boots. 5. We might collectively have enough advertising clout that some snowboard mags would consider doing some editorial copy on hard booting. 6.The niche filling the need for large "sweet spot", easier to ride, intermediate level alpine boards would be filled. but as they say.....misery loves company- welcome to the fold brutha! If you want any input from me- let me know- be glad to help. ________ Michigan Medical Marijuana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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