Riding moguls

[OhD]

I changed settings on my profile to allow e-mail, too.

The White Pass expansion is still in progress. http://www.skiwhitepass.com/construction/index.cfm Some towers are in, the runs are all cut, and the new lodge foundation is done. Next summer they plan to finish lifts and the lodge and open the area for the 2010-11 season. It's mostly pretty low-angle cruisers, but the area has needed more beginner-intermediate terrain forever, particularly runs that don't have cat track sections and bottlenecks getting through the cliff bands. The collector road back to the highway is going to be pretty brutal at the end of the day, but otherwise the area is going to be much improved by the expansion. The RV parking lot is going to be full of tower parts starting sometime in February, we are told.

One can hike out the ridge and ride the new runs now, but they aren't grooming yet and the low pitch is problematic if there's much powder - not that we've been that fortunate this year.

[Sooperburd]

My wife and I have a passion for riding the moguls. We both ride fairly short Rossignol all mountain boards with magnetraction (she has a Diva 144 and I have a JDub 154) with relatively stiff softboot setups. The maneuverability of a shorter board, with the edge grip of magnetraction helps us to enjoy the bumps, regardless of how fast and/or icy they are.

It's been my goal for a number of years to get really good at moguls and I've gotten quite a few pointers from this thread and RCrobar's old thread. I never put too much thought into where I was scrubbing speed on the bumps, but my eyes were opened by this thread. Last weekend, I started scrubbing on the uphill faces and tops of the bumps, instead of the downhill (icy) sides. Wow! What a difference!

At first, I thought it was going to change my entire line through the bumps, but after a few runs, I discovered that my line was really the same as it has always been, it's just where I choose to skid that changed. I could either skid down the back, icy face, or skid on the nice, soft face. Tough choice...

In addition, while at the top of the mogul, sliding sideways on an edge, you make the appropriate direction change to get you pointed at the next mogul below. The two motions of skid and direction change happen so smoothly, you don't really think about it.

Of course, the skidding to scrub speed is in addition to soaking up speed via contraction/extension over the tops of the bumps. This is what so many good mogul skiers seem to understand so well. Is there even a name for this voodoo speed scrub technique that somehow converts excess kinetic energy back into potential energy? It's the exact inverse of what pipe riders do when they push off of the slope of the pipe into the flat and gain speed because of it.

At any rate, the contraction/extension is enough to keep speed in check when the slope is shallow, but the skid really comes into play on steeper slopes.

[jpenn]

My wife and I have a passion for riding the moguls. We both ride fairly short Rossignol all mountain boards with magnetraction (she has a Diva 144 and I have a JDub 154) with relatively stiff softboot setups. The maneuverability of a shorter board, with the edge grip of magnetraction helps us to enjoy the bumps, regardless of how fast and/or icy they are.

It's been my goal for a number of years to get really good at moguls and I've gotten quite a few pointers from this thread and RCrobar's old thread. I never put too much thought into where I was scrubbing speed on the bumps, but my eyes were opened by this thread. Last weekend, I started scrubbing on the uphill faces and tops of the bumps, instead of the downhill (icy) sides. Wow! What a difference!

At first, I thought it was going to change my entire line through the bumps, but after a few runs, I discovered that my line was really the same as it has always been, it's just where I choose to skid that changed. I could either skid down the back, icy face, or skid on the nice, soft face. Tough choice...

In addition, while at the top of the mogul, sliding sideways on an edge, you make the appropriate direction change to get you pointed at the next mogul below. The two motions of skid and direction change happen so smoothly, you don't really think about it.

Of course, the skidding to scrub speed is in addition to soaking up speed via contraction/extension over the tops of the bumps. This is what so many good mogul skiers seem to understand so well. Is there even a name for this voodoo speed scrub technique that somehow converts excess kinetic energy back into potential energy? It's the exact inverse of what pipe riders do when they push off of the slope of the pipe into the flat and gain speed because of it.

At any rate, the contraction/extension is enough to keep speed in check when the slope is shallow, but the skid really comes into play on steeper slopes.

Hey Sooperburd - thanks for summing it up - I like your perspective, and now I am dying to try bumps on a smaller board (right now I use a Nidecker Legend 164 - a bit long but flexy and able to cut tight turns).

JP

[Sooperburd]

Hey Sooperburd - thanks for summing it up - I like your perspective, and now I am dying to try bumps on a smaller board (right now I use a Nidecker Legend 164 - a bit long but flexy and able to cut tight turns).

JP

Wow. I can't even imagine what something that long would feel like in the bumps. I've always wanted to try a longer board in the moguls, though. I can see how a longer board might smooth things out a bit. What length (and stiffness) makes a good mogul ski?

[Sooperburd]

I'm fairly certain that the longer the board, though, the farther out you need to be visually scanning your line.

Actually, that's a really good tip that I haven't seen on here (or maybe it's there and I missed it). The importance of looking ahead and sighting in your line at least 3 bumps ahead.

It's not so simple, though:

When you first start riding moguls, understanding the line isn't too important, because you're just taking them 1 bump at a time. You'll completely commit your board and center of gravity (COG) to every turn. Essentially your COG will be centered over the board all of the time.

As you get better at riding bumps, you need to start looking farther and farther down the hill. Pretty soon (or not so soon in my case, It's taken me years to get this), you'll start letting the board pendulum (yes, it's now a verb) to the left and right of your COG with each bump. If you aren't looking a few moguls ahead, you won't have the confidence to let the board pendulum out away from you, knowing it will come back very soon.

This was where I stagnated for a year or two. I didn't realize how important it was to be looking really far ahead. I believe it's more important for snowboarders to see the line than for skiers to see the line. Skiers have two independent feet and training wheels, so they can adjust their COG very quickly. On a single plank, without training wheels, you can't easily make major changes to your board/COG relationship.

Once you get to a certain level at moguls, seeing the line becomes more and more important. I'd say about 60% of my (somewhat limited) brain power is devoted to the line, 39% is devoted to body control, and 1% is looking for squirrels.

Sorry if I'm not using all the proper terms. I was never a mogul skier, but I've learned almost everything I know about riding bumps from watching skiers. If I'm way off here and not giving good advice, please feel free to correct me.

Oh, and I was (mostly) kidding about the squirrels.

[KingCrimson]

I'll probably get crap for this..

My favorite board by far in moguls is my 180 Metal GS Coiler. It's super damp, so it feels very utilitarian and stable in bumps. The lack of rebound keeps the edge in the snow, the rockered nose and tail makes spinning it around a breeze, and the length gives a lot of "squish" if I mess up. I'm sure there are much, much better boards for this but I always find myself on the GS stick..

Nothing helps my carving more than trees and bumps!

Olympians are on somewhat narrow AM shapes about 170-175 in length for bumps. I wonder if they are terribly different from park skis.

[Sooperburd]

This goes against most things I've read (...and my common sense, too) about riding bumps, but my stance is duck ±15°. This makes it pretty impossible for me to square my shoulders to the fall line. So, I keep my shoulders at 45° or so to the fall line and turn my head the rest of the way so I can see the terrain to both sides of me.

You'd think that this would increase my chances of catching the "death edge", but that hasn't been the case with me. The last time I caught my heel edge on a mogul was at least two years ago.

Why don't I just change my stance to make it easier? I guess I should try it. I do like riding switch, and there's just something I like about going down the hill sideways and not squaring my shoulders. I suppose it's an image thing. I want to be able to ride bumps like a skier, but not look like a skier. Maybe I should rephrase that... I want to beat skiers through the mogul fields, while looking like a knuckle dragger, not like a snowboarder emulating a skier. ;)

I'll even ride smaller mogul fields switch sometimes if the snow's soft and I don't mind being sore the next day (I tend to go over the handlebars and hug moguls a lot when riding them switch). I suppose that riding moguls switch is my Holy Grail of difficult things to do while snowboarding.

[Sooperburd]

I'll probably get crap for this..

My favorite board by far in moguls is my 180 Metal GS Coiler. It's super damp, so it feels very utilitarian and stable in bumps. The lack of rebound keeps the edge in the snow, the rockered nose and tail makes spinning it around a breeze, and the length gives a lot of "squish" if I mess up. I'm sure there are much, much better boards for this but I always find myself on the GS stick..

Nothing helps my carving more than trees and bumps!

Olympians are on somewhat narrow AM shapes about 170-175 in length for bumps. I wonder if they are terribly different from park skis.

I can see how dampening would be sweet. However, I assume you're on hardboots. Are you skidding down the back sides of the moguls at all with that setup (or are you speed checking on the uphill face)? Skipping down the backside of moguls in hard boots doesn't sound like fun.

You said "rockered nose and tail". Is that a reverse camber board???

Finally, have you ever ridden something really short (sub 160) in the bumps?

Really long story: I tuned up an old beater Gnu Carbon High Beam 160 this week as my rock board. (Yes, yes, yes, I tuned up a rock board ) and I'm going to try it on the bumps this weekend. It's much floppier than my JDub. If the mogul skiers are riding something similar to park skis, the Gnu might give a similar feel.

...and then again, it might be a horrible trainwreck in the bumps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I want to beat skiers through the mogul fields, while looking like a knuckle dragger, not like a snowboarder emulating a skier.

So I guess the $64 question is why the hell are you on this forum if that's your opinion of forward stances? You are aware that the vast majority of us here ride hard boots at aggressively forward angles, right?

[carvin29]

I've come to enjoy them somewhat. I watched a skiing technique video on them, it was saying to turn before the mogul then go around it. Sounds simple but it really helped me and now I like em.

[Sooperburd]

So I guess the $64 question is why the hell are you on this forum if that's your opinion of forward stances? You are aware that the vast majority of us here ride hard boots at aggressively forward angles, right?

Haha, excellent question. I've searched all over the internet, and BOL is the only place that treats the discipline of mogul snowboarding as anything like a science.

Everywhere else I've been, I only get the response of "dude, snowboarders don't ride moguls, what's wrong with you?"

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with my "not like a snowboarder emulating a skier" comment. I can see how many of you have become hyper-sensitive to comments like that (from the idiots in the lift line, etc.). I'm thoroughly intrigued by what you guys can do on hardboot alpine setups. I imagine that someday I'll get my own alpine setup, but that's at least a year away.

I also think that this thread has very little place being in the Carving Community sub-forum. IMO it should be in the Off-Topic sub-forum, but I'm just a noob here and I don't know the rules.

I'd be perfectly happy posting this stuff in the Off-Topic sub-forum and not offending any hardbooters. From what I've read in my few weeks of lurking, it's waaaay to easy to offend some of you.

[Rob Stevens]

Let's not get too complicated.

It's just shorter radius turns with a more uneven surface.

The same things you do to turn fast are all in there with some more in-out with the legs to stay on the snow, unless you want to jump and that's good because a mogul field has alot of jumps.

[Sooperburd]

Let's not get too complicated.

It's just shorter radius turns with a more uneven surface.

The same things you do to turn fast are all in there with some more in-out with the legs to stay on the snow, unless you want to jump and that's good because a mogul field has alot of jumps.

Rob,

If your goal is the zipper line, this is indeed very complicated. If your goal is something less than the zipper line, I completely agree with you, it's not very complicated.

[Rob Stevens]

Rob,

If your goal is the zipper line, this is indeed very complicated. If your goal is something less than the zipper line, I completely agree with you, it's not very complicated.

How's that?

Both require absorbtion, where only one requires the rider to stay quiet in the upper body. Does this mean that a line that ignores the "I must turn here" mindset takes less skill? Controlled rotation and a wider corridor is just as demanding.

This wider path is also more appropriate for snowboarding where pivoting is slower compared to skis, giving that funny look that makes it look less refined than skiing.

[Sooperburd]

How's that?

Both require absorbtion, where only one requires the rider to stay quiet in the upper body. Does this mean that a line that ignores the "I must turn here" mindset takes less skill? Controlled rotation and a wider corridor is just as demanding.

This wider path is also more appropriate for snowboarding where pivoting is slower compared to skis, giving that funny look that makes it look less refined than skiing.

The fact that nearly nobody can do the zipper line quickly and smoothly says to me it's much more difficult than the almost-zipper line.

I suppose if we're splitting hairs, the techniques aren't that different between the two lines. However, the difference in skill required between the two is immense.

The difference is that the zipper line requires you to pendulum the board right and left of your COG to a very high degree. Also, the zipper is much straighter down the hill than a traversing route. That means it's faster than the traversing route, and the turns come a lot faster. ...and that means you have to be looking really far ahead, and your body needs to almost be on autopilot, so your brain can figure out the path.

...and I think it's the lack of training wheels that makes it look funny, not a difference in pivot speed. Snowboarders can apply much more torque to their system than skiers, especially when using low binding angles. In addition, a snowboard doesn't have a significantly higher moment of inertia (swing weight, sorry for the engineering term) than a pair of skis. You'd be surprised how quickly you can turn a short board (I ride an all mountain 154 in the bumps and I don't ever feel limited by pivot speed).

[Rob Stevens]

The line you're in to is found on FIS mogul courses.

The line I'm talking about is the one you'd ride in the OP. The one where the bumps are all over the place. You can't stay in the fall line all the time, riding trough to face because that line runs out after about 20 vertical.

To stay smooth and in control, with some semblance of style, you need an approach that is not dictated by the bumps.

As for this line being slower, that's not true. You may get to the bottom slower, but your speed over the snow is the same.

We've looked at this pretty extensively from the perspective of what compliments a snowboard best and found that, while we can pin "zipper" in some places, it gets spastic in the upper body, doing whatever it takes to keep the board on line after the "line" runs out.

To the OP: If you want to crush it in style and not just be the first one down, I suggest the "You dictate the line" method.

[Steve Prokopiw]

The line you're in to is found on FIS mogul courses.

The line I'm talking about is the one you'd ride in the OP. The one where the bumps are all over the place. You can't stay in the fall line all the time, riding trough to face because that line runs out after about 20 vertical.

To stay smooth and in control, with some semblance of style, you need an approach that is not dictated by the bumps.

As for this line being slower, that's not true. You may get to the bottom slower, but your speed over the snow is the same.

We've looked at this pretty extensively from the perspective of what compliments a snowboard best and found that, while we can pin "zipper" in some places, it gets spastic in the upper body, doing whatever it takes to keep the board on line after the "line" runs out.

To the OP: If you want to crush it in style and not just be the first one down, I suggest the "You dictate the line" method.

Although I have always felt better in hardboots in bumps for several reasons,the above statements describe my own bump riding and teaching philosophy.Not that I always execute with style, but I try.It is simply more fun to decide for myself how to ride than have it it dictated by the terrain.

[NateW]

Last Saturday I paused halfway down a mogully section and someone on the chair asked how long my board was. I was on a 183 at the time... it's not the norm, but so be it.

It's been a long time since I rode anything shorter than 170, but I don't feel much difference switching between my 172 and 183 in bumps. I do prefer the 172, but I think that's got more to do with it being stiffer and narrower than it being shorter. I like the stability of a longer board in general though ("longer" meaning "over 160").

Narrower means better leverage on the edge, as someone mentioned already, and stiffer means that if my CG gets too far forward or backward I can muscle myself back to center and the board will support me rather than curl up under me and just let me fall.

For the "zipper line," I try to think of my front foot as going straight down the hill, and my back foot swinging around behind me, unweighted in the turns. The "straight down the hill" part doesn't happen nearly that precisely of course, but it's a mental model that works for me.

If you want to run a duck stance, my guess is that it's not going to be all that different except that your upper body will be sideways so that you can still get lots of rotation / counter-rotation. It's harder to get high edge angles on your heels, without bending a lot at the waist, when you've got your knees oriented that way. But if you want to handicap yourself like that, go right ahead. ;)

[terekhov]

Wow. I can't even imagine what something that long would feel like in the bumps. I've always wanted to try a longer board in the moguls, though. I can see how a longer board might smooth things out a bit. What length (and stiffness) makes a good mogul ski?

my goto mogul board is beaten-up donek axis 182 (now replaced with coiler 177am glass classic). longer board is easier to adjust balance when speeding through moguls + longer edge gives more freedom to scrub speed off. and yes - you need eye-track your line further to gain control on speed of longer stick

[Sooperburd]

Another noob question: What do you mean by OP?

The one where the bumps are all over the place. You can't stay in the fall line all the time, riding trough to face because that line runs out after about 20 vertical.

At Mary Jane, there are pretty solid lines all over the place. Just ask the skiers, who routinely rip through them in a zipper 100-200 yards at a time.

As for this line being slower, that's not true. You may get to the bottom slower, but your speed over the snow is the same.

I still don't agree here. If you're going straight down the fall line, your linear speed is going to be greater than if you are traversing the fall line. That's just physics. There is a certain amount of friction associated with the board on the snow, even if you're doing zero scrubbing. Covering more ground on on a shallower slope means lower linear speed.

We've looked at this pretty extensively from the perspective of what compliments a snowboard best and found that, while we can pin "zipper" in some places, it gets spastic in the upper body, doing whatever it takes to keep the board on line after the "line" runs out.

This is why I say sighting a really long line is so important (much more important for snowboarders to do well than for skiers to do well) because you need to see the course changes long in advance to avoid the spastic upper body. I'm not saying it's easy, but I have seen some success using this technique to quiet my upper body at higher speeds on the zipper.

[Sooperburd]

Narrower means better leverage on the edge, as someone mentioned already, and stiffer means that if my CG gets too far forward or backward I can muscle myself back to center and the board will support me rather than curl up under me and just let me fall.

I've heard this a couple of times. Can you really tell the difference between a 170 and a 182 in its ability to help you right yourself if you get leaning too far forward or backward? In my experience, if you get anywhere near the back seat, there's no righting yourself. You've got bigger problems. Maybe I do need to try a longer board.

For the "zipper line," I try to think of my front foot as going straight down the hill, and my back foot swinging around behind me, unweighted in the turns. The "straight down the hill" part doesn't happen nearly that precisely of course, but it's a mental model that works for me.

I feel exactly the same way about this approach. Minus the pendulum action, that front foot is going pretty much straight down the hill.

If you want to run a duck stance, my guess is that it's not going to be all that different except that your upper body will be sideways so that you can still get lots of rotation / counter-rotation. It's harder to get high edge angles on your heels, without bending a lot at the waist, when you've got your knees oriented that way. But if you want to handicap yourself like that, go right ahead. ;)

With a duck stance, it is definitely harder to get a high heel edge angle for scrubbing on the uphill side of the moguls. However, I haven't found this to be much of a detriment so far. Maybe when my speeds increase, I'll need a little more scrub power on the heel edge. Maybe I haven't noticed a detriment because I've been compensating with stronger toe side scrubbing. Certainly, high toe side angles can be achieved riding duck with minimal movement, and tons of power.

[Newmax]

Are we talking about 'carving' moguls or riding them like in that video from page 1?

[b0ardski]

I always carve through the bumps, and look nothing like the alpiner in the vid.

[Rob Stevens]

Another noob question: What do you mean by OP?

At Mary Jane, there are pretty solid lines all over the place. Just ask the skiers, who routinely rip through them in a zipper 100-200 yards at a time.

Fair enough. Love to see some video of you making it look as natural.

I still don't agree here. If you're going straight down the fall line, your linear speed is going to be greater than if you are traversing the fall line. That's just physics. There is a certain amount of friction associated with the board on the snow, even if you're doing zero scrubbing. Covering more ground on on a shallower slope means lower linear speed.

Who's going straight down the fall line? You're skidding between every turn, with a fairly high degree of tail displacement relative to your nose. What I'm describing entails much more consistant carving, which means I'm going just as fast, but not as direct. It's just physics.

This is why I say sighting a really long line is so important (much more important for snowboarders to do well than for skiers to do well) because you need to see the course changes long in advance to avoid the spastic upper body. I'm not saying it's easy, but I have seen some success using this technique to quiet my upper body at higher speeds on the zipper.

Again, let's see the video. I won't say it can't be done. I used to ride moguls like you describe myself. After a time, however, I found it wasn't as clean. Earlier, you said a snowboard can pivot just as fast as skis and this is true under ideal conditions however, if this is not done with the same stable foundation of stance and balance, any mistake will not be as easy to recover from and result in flailing.

OP is original post.

[Sooperburd]

Are we talking about 'carving' moguls or riding them like in that video from page 1?

I've been talking about riding them, like the video on page 1.