bobdea Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Being somewhat of a audiophile, a Bowers and Wilkins 45 thousand dollar speaker is beyond amazing to listen to. I don't know what the speaker model or type was but to chalk up a high price with miss use of resources is just absurd. The type of wire used and the equipment used to transfer the audio source makes a difference. To try to compare a bose system to something of this caliber is a joke at the start. It sounds to me that if you can't afford something you must bag on the ones who can or the item itself. Is a season pass at aspen overpriced? Only the people who pay for it could say. I don't know if anyone lives in a yurt, wipes with leaves, rides a bike to work year round, has solar panels all over the yard, or has a wind mill on the roof. But buying this dopey class warfare is completely LAME!!!! Kr audio is just a bad comparison though, audio is probably the one industry other than homeopathy that has the most snake oil salesmen. funny you bring up cables that's one of the biggest bull**** markets in audio. here's a link http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06#feature both popular mechanics and popular science have tackled this as well as consumer reports all say the same thing, after a certain point in audio it's mostly BS. these really high end companies get busted all the time for putting other brands of good but much cheaper legit equipment putting it in their housing and quadrupling the price. these things don't really happen in the alpine industry. here's a example of some more audiophile ****ery http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 This whole argument reminds me of when suspension hit the mountain bike scene. Yeah, it changed the feel of the ride. Made it more damp, less responsive, and reduced trail "feel". I rode rigid forks before suspension was available, and they're still fun to play around with every once and a while, but is anyone who's sane still refusing to use suspension on their main X-C rig??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted February 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 audio is just a bad comparison though, audio is probably the one industry other than homeopathy that has the most snake oil salesmen. funny you bring up cables that's one of the biggest bull**** markets in audio. here's a link http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06#feature both popular mechanics and popular science have tackled this as well as consumer reports all say the same thing, after a certain point in audio it's mostly BS. these really high end companies get busted all the time for putting other brands of good but much cheaper legit equipment putting it in their housing and quadrupling the price. these things don't really happen in the alpine industry.here's a example of some more audiophile ****ery http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1 couple of good articles. The Lexiconnedyou article really sucked big time. Here's a another article on some "Very inexpensive speakers for what you get". Click on equipment reviews in the center of the first page "Spending time with----Magico. http://stereotimes.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveInOregon Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 1) If you want the best sound, practice -& > make "live" music. I toured 120 gigs a year in the 70's 80 & early 90's > singing & drumming, most people in the audiance are a bit tonally & quality deaf, they listen like they sing > badly. Give me an old Gretsch drums set, a classic tube amp with Sure mic and axe men with old Rickenbacker & Gibson equipment overt the new stuff. Carvers are like audiophiles ,cigar & wine aficionados , like Becker & Fagen type quality musician's they make up a very small percentage of the listening community You have no "voice" when sitting in the listeners seat , so pick up Your old violin or 6 string &>( see line 1 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbo Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 audio is just a bad comparison though, audio is probably the one industry other than homeopathy that has the most snake oil salesmen. funny you bring up cables that's one of the biggest bull**** markets in audio. here's a link http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06#feature both popular mechanics and popular science have tackled this as well as consumer reports all say the same thing, after a certain point in audio it's mostly BS. these really high end companies get busted all the time for putting other brands of good but much cheaper legit equipment putting it in their housing and quadrupling the price. these things don't really happen in the alpine industry.here's a example of some more audiophile ****ery http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1 Hey Bob....read my comment again. The thrust of my point was not alpine. My point is that these stupid threads get started bashing something because a perceived cost vs. worth argument. I never get hung up on what my neighbor has in his wallet or what he spends his money on. If you are buying a 46k level of speaker(my example B & W), you are not putting that in dorm room. It most likely is going into a home theater type set up. To argue that all audio companies put "basically" the same guts into their "boxes" is defying reality. At that level of equipment you are not talking about bobs stereo center. Research my example before dropping vague generalities. Material used counts just like everything else including alpine. kr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hey Bob....read my comment again. The thrust of my point was not alpine. My point is that these stupid threads get started bashing something because a perceived cost vs. worth argument. I never get hung up on what my neighbor has in his wallet or what he spends his money on. If you are buying a 46k level of speaker(my example B & W), you are not putting that in dorm room. It most likely is going into a home theater type set up. To argue that all audio companies put "basically" the same guts into their "boxes" is defying reality. At that level of equipment you are not talking about bobs stereo center. Research my example before dropping vague generalities. Material used counts just like everything else including alpine.kr I did not say all did, I did say it's common. what I was trying to say was more like audio is a mature market nothing is going to come along and revolutionize it any time soon unless something changes in how it's recorded, as far as clarity goes it's also mature. when you have a mature market, no real way to measure small improvements and it's a lot about what you like as in liking a painting or something you will have a market that there's a ton of BS. snowboarding is not like that..... yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 audio is just a bad comparison though, audio is probably the one industry other than homeopathy that has the most snake oil salesmen. funny you bring up cables that's one of the biggest bull**** markets in audio. here's a link http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06#feature both popular mechanics and popular science have tackled this as well as consumer reports all say the same thing, after a certain point in audio it's mostly BS. these really high end companies get busted all the time for putting other brands of good but much cheaper legit equipment putting it in their housing and quadrupling the price. these things don't really happen in the alpine industry.here's a example of some more audiophile ****ery http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1 C'mon you guys... I sell, install and tune high end audio systems. Most average snowboarders on average soft Boots and bindings... if you were to put them on a F2 and a Swoard could not tell the difference. could they tell the difference between a bomber 1st gen, 2nd gen, Catek 1st gen, catek OS2, ? How about F2 race plates vs Burton race plates? No way. Not a chance. They don't have enough time to discern or enough experience to understand how to dial it in.. How many of you want to ride Burton race plates? How many of you would rather shell out $330 for Catek OS2 with D3 elastomers or $449 for the new Bomber sidewinder? The "newbie to plates" snowboarder would think you were insane... and say why would you need anything more than a used set of $70 burton race plates that are far lighter and simpler to use. Now.... I went to the 2009 Rocky Mountain Audio fest. I heard an enormous amount of crap sounding speakers for over $45,000. Real junk.. also BS audio cables selling for ridiculous amounts. Garbage sounding DACS. It was downright shameful. BUT... I also heard some really good things. Ironically this time around... nothing truly expensive sounded very accurate. But like a child with a new uneducated palate will swear a Burger king Hamburger is the best burger in the world... so are a lot of customers for audio... so new to it that any thing that catches their attention.. is deemed as "better" even though things can be overly bright,,, bass heavy, sloppy midbass, extreme low end roll off, harsh titanium tweeters with horrible resonances which for certain instruments sound correct and horribly wrong for others. Audio is different than a snowboard... some audio pieces are nearly timeless. And in that regard are far better values... Errr. except an old Burton Snowboard with strap bindings just sold for $5000 and another sold for $12,000...but those are glaring exceptions.. how much is a dual tec Rossignol throttle worth today? What percentage of its original price... will it ever command a multiple like an original Burton? ...no. BOSE Sorry.. stands for Buy Other Stereo Equipment. Audio has some great deals... You could get a set of Magneplanar Tympani 1d's for cheap .... run them off an older Audio Research tube amp..and beat many $20,000 systems. Hell, even the sub $400 new Magneplanars beat most speakers costing 10 times more. We don't have those bargains in snowboarding where a $150 snowboard is going to beat a $1500 Kessler. Also you have to use gas, sometimes airfare, lift tickets, lessons, snowboard clothing... etc etc... to actually snowboard...Audio is the far better deal... For example. I paid $2900 for Infinity Reference Stand RS1as in 1987 Sold them in 1999 for $5000, Bought 2 Uses Bryston 4b for $500each in 1981 sold them for $3700 in 1997.... when you buy quality... you might make something on it. A 1990 Checker Pig G6 with Titanal Mounting plates- MSRP $595 in perfect condition might fetch $50 today. But you will hear few cheers when you play your audio system really well, though it might give you chills if someone dials it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted February 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 The new Magneplaner 1.7 for $2K. Outstanding. Lifetime speaker as the manufacturer will repair for a very reasonable price, and will continue to do so in years to come. If anyone out there is looking for speakers, audition these, as you really won't believe how good sound can be. Lots of new "Relatively" inexpensive gear that has come up to levels that wasn't seen 10 years back. Peachtree audio has some nice stuff, as does Rotel and some Chinese tube gear. Digital is starting to give analog a run, especially with DAC tube gear. Back to snowboarding. Was thinking about checking in with Never Summer to see if they might be interested in making a run at Alpine Gear. They sounded pretty cool in another thread, and in the interview they gave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transistor Rhythm Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 But in the seventies and eighties already people were building outstanding HiFi systems, snowboarding is still in full development. There are some simple rules to audio for me: - Those little speakers do not sound as good as good big speakers - They really don't - Look at what the guys that make your favorite music use. Studio speakers are used by people that can earn their money because those speakers are detailed and balanced! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted February 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 But in the seventies and eighties already people were building outstanding HiFi systems, snowboarding is still in full development. There are some simple rules to audio for me:- Those little speakers do not sound as good as good big speakers - They really don't - Look at what the guys that make your favorite music use. Studio speakers are used by people that can earn their money because those speakers are detailed and balanced! What are little speakers? Do you mean little boxes or do you mean little drivers? Picture of Magnepan 1.7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transistor Rhythm Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Nice and flat, but still big! I mean: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Don't know man... I didn't follow much on the development of HiFi for over a decade, but was quite an audio freak back then, about 20 years ago, and had frinds who were even more so. Anyways, I still have a pair of thiny 20 years old Wharfedale Diamond III boxes. Those things can stand their own with the most of the "modern" big boxes of reasonable price. As the matter of fact, their sound is so ful, rich and precise, that people who do not know look around the room, looking for those big studio speakers, or at least the sub-whoofer box. Back then, I had chance to listen them in the same room with many bigger models, like B&W, Cellesion, Infinity, Tanoy, studio grade Yamaha, Bose and God knows what else. They were never put to shame. I'm not talking the exorbitant priced stuff here, as I don't have enough experience in that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Nice and flat, but still big!I mean: Ah, ah, you mean that small! Those are not the speakers, but satelites, as they need the subwoofer to reproduce the full sound. When someone says speaker, when talking home audio, to me it means a box that reproduces the full spectrum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transistor Rhythm Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Ah, ah, you mean that small! Those are not the speakers, but satelites, as they need the subwoofer to reproduce the full sound. When someone says speaker, when talking home audio, to me it means a box that reproduces the full spectrum... Ask about any given woman in the western world, and they will swear this is all you need to play music on. Really. Why have two sets of speakers while you have this great sounding surround set already? And those cute little satellites can be tucked away nicely, instead of those lumpy old stereo speakers. But it's a horrible idea for playing music, it's already a challenge to have the phase 100% correct with two or three way speakers, I can't imagine how a subwoofer hidden somewhere where the wife can't see it would perform as good. And if you let out the subwoofer, it sounds even worse. I have a set of small KRK active nearfields, and they're pretty nice to make music on in a small untreated room, but if I really want to hear what's going in bass or in the mix on I need to play it on either a bigger system or headphones. If you want to move air there are some things that you can never overcome without using some diameter in your speakers. If I had money to burn I would not even like small speakers + subwoofer for watching movies, but five decent speakers plus a subwoofer for just the really low rumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 a caddy drives up a canyon road easier than a ferrari No, it real doesn't. Not even... unless a trooper is on your tail, forcing the driver to keep things well below 2/10s . . . or maybe if the canyon rd is covered in snow and the caddy in question is a 4wd escalade ...but to chalk up a high price with miss use of resources is just absurd....... It sounds to me that if you can't afford something you must bag on the ones who can or the item itself...... I don't know if anyone lives in a yurt, wipes with leaves, rides a bike to work year round, has solar panels all over the yard, or has a wind mill on the roof. But buying this dopey class warfare is completely LAME!!!! I agree completely.If a guy has the cash and wants to spend it, on whatever, folks are employed, and therefore able to work on obtaining for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 ;) Spot on Kr. Enjoy what you have, avoid envy of those with more. One of the happiest persons I have ever had the pleasure to meet is a single 37yr old that works pushing wheel chairs around at the airport. Collects Boy Scout memoribilia and his most expensive possession is a laptop. His life is full of friends and activities. He is always excited about the next day and never has a harsh word to say about anyone. I only worry about him in his retirement, otherwise I envy his out look and think of him if I am feeling cheated or short changed. Actually I have come to appreciate those who spend too much on gear. Without the original purchase, the "used deal" wouldn't exist so I'm encouraging all who can afford it to keep buying... and you should try to buy the Swoard 175 Hard flex, everyone should buy at least 2 pairs of sidewinders (then deside one is enough), and even if this isn't your size, you can't go to the hill without a pair of 28.5 Deeluxe boots.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 ;)Actually I have come to appreciate those who spend too much on gear. Without the original purchase, the "used deal" wouldn't exist so I'm encouraging all who can afford it to keep buying... and you should try to buy the Swoard 175 Hard flex, everyone should buy at least 2 pairs of sidewinders (then deside one is enough), and even if this isn't your size, you can't go to the hill without a pair of 28.5 Deeluxe boots.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Speaker design. If you want to make a decent sounding full range sound system... Well a sub satellite combo is not the ticket to audio nirvana. People notice things that are obvious, and if there is an explosion on the Movie screen and no rumble... well you notice something is missing. but remove Midbass....and who will notice it is missing??? Few unless they listen to John Entwhistles solos . Its pretty easy to demo some music without prominent Midbass and sucker people into buying subs and sats. IMHO people are most sensitive to accuracy in the Vocal region...which is why we can discern so many voices even through a lousy cell phone in just a few syllables. So tiny boxes..well they do vocals errr.....reasonably well... even the drivers are about the size of the human mouth. But to design a one box full range speaker with a combination 2" tweeter/midrange...forced to do limited midbass and woofer duty and a subwoofer- you'd be laughed at. A full range speaker should avoid crossovers in the human vocal range... so a 1 inch tweeter and a 3.75 inch - 5.25 inch midrange, a 8-10 inch woofer and then a subwoofer makes sense... Many well designed two way systems avoid phase shifts and crossover delays... one of my perennial favorites... the ProAc Response 1SC - a 1 inch tweeter + 5.25 inch mid/woofer...which remarkably sounds great and reproduces low frequencies superbly... but require speakers to have great speaker stands and to parade out into the room...and what takes a long time to "tweek them position wise" for ideal sound... But feed them great signal like from an Audio research VT 100MK2..and you would be shocked a how great hey sound... but not for Hard rock or Metal, as the midrange goes into compression. Those tiny box systems.. well they work great for PA systems in restaurants to call out the next reservation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdyno Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 I worked for a commercial/corporate system installer and our designer loved the Totem line. They have a bunch of different models that are compact and columns. Take a look, they are worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 Speaker design.If you want to make a decent sounding full range sound system... Well a sub satellite combo is not the ticket to audio nirvana. People notice things that are obvious, and if there is an explosion on the Movie screen and no rumble... well you notice something is missing. but remove Midbass....and who will notice it is missing??? Few unless they listen to John Entwhistles solos . Its pretty easy to demo some music without prominent Midbass and sucker people into buying subs and sats. IMHO people are most sensitive to accuracy in the Vocal region...which is why we can discern so many voices even through a lousy cell phone in just a few syllables. So tiny boxes..well they do vocals errr.....reasonably well... even the drivers are about the size of the human mouth. But to design a one box full range speaker with a combination 2" tweeter/midrange...forced to do limited midbass and woofer duty and a subwoofer- you'd be laughed at. A full range speaker should avoid crossovers in the human vocal range... so a 1 inch tweeter and a 3.75 inch - 5.25 inch midrange, a 8-10 inch woofer and then a subwoofer makes sense... Many well designed two way systems avoid phase shifts and crossover delays... one of my perennial favorites... the ProAc Response 1SC - a 1 inch tweeter + 5.25 inch mid/woofer...which remarkably sounds great and reproduces low frequencies superbly... but require speakers to have great speaker stands and to parade out into the room...and what takes a long time to "tweek them position wise" for ideal sound... But feed them great signal like from an Audio research VT 100MK2..and you would be shocked a how great hey sound... but not for Hard rock or Metal, as the midrange goes into compression. Those tiny box systems.. well they work great for PA systems in restaurants to call out the next reservation. The old "No Replacement for displacement" deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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