BTS questions.. and head stratos pro

[Wun]

have asked some questions about this a couple times in my shin bang thread but they seem to not be getting caught by the eyes of readers who would know the answers, so i'm just creating a new, properly labeled thread with some re-thought and rephrased, some same, questions after having done a bit of forum digging.

i've been highly urged to pick up some BTS for my boots. i think i'm gonna have a couple more sessions with my stock boots (mainly to once again try the max lift on rear and min lift on front and see what i can achieve in terms of a crouched, neutral stance) before i make the decision to pick 'em up. even after reading its page in the BOL store, i'm left wondering many things and overall feel like i don't know a thing about the BTS.

* will probably end up trying to go to 6-6 disks on my TD2 SIs in that meantime; sound like an OK temporary fix? thoughts?

i'm currently using 3-6 disks and get quad burn just standing up on carpet with anything 3-3 or less.

* my wings, as far as i recall, don't even get close to touching each other when flexing forward like others do. i'll have to double-check that when i go back to tahoe where my boots are stored. is there still enough friction to warrant cutting them out when installing BTS? this question not so important; i presume that the answer to this question is yes.. maybe i'm just trying to get an idea of how much the wings' rubbing makes an impact.

from here speaking of stock boots:

You do not have the ability to “tune” the boot and make it feel the way you want it to. Sure, you can get softer/harder tongues but they are still not truly adjustable and they tend to be hard to find for most snowboard hardboots.

* what does that mean?

* since the BTS allows rearward flex toward the heelside, does that necessarily mean the red springs for the rearward are softer than stock rearward flex?

because of the whole not being able to stand on carpet with anything less than 3-6, it sounds like i'm SIMPLY just putting some slop into the boots and "downgrading" the boots to those more like a softer pair so i can get into the neutral stance more easily. is this a distorted perception?

* what is the range of adjustable static lean enveloped by the BTS system relative to the range in the stock HSPs?

* what is the range of adjustable stiffness enveloped by all color combinations of BTS springs relative to the range in the stock HSPs?

* how stiff are these boots stock compared to WCRers' boot setups after mods and all, anyway? (out of curiousity)

* 'cause, let's say hypothetically i get crazy good and crazy aggressive (though i'm only 120 lb, and this upcoming question kind of ties back to the other one asking about the range of stiffness accomodated by all BTS spring colors; don't know how max stock and max red spring stiffness compare). will i outprogress BTS with red springs and have to buy some stock boots in the future? i'm kind of turned off of the idea of having to use more newbie-friendly gear and having to upgrade down the road. if the only problem is just the fact that it's a matter of time before i overwhelm the boots and have to go back to stock, i'd rather just leave it as i would use it were i an exxxxpurrrt carver

* how am i supposed to deal with deciding the colors? rather than stopping at suggesting a colorset (i assume everyone will just say go all yellow for 120 lbs, and i won't argue against that), can someone also add a guideline in words of which to use sort of like how booster strap does in graph form? (something not so abstract like the BTS page in the BOL store) everyone's going to suggest yellow all-around for me, right?

* will my bootfitter (that i bought these boots from NEW) do these mods for me if i roll in with the boots, BTS, pins, and drillbits? are they likely to already have the drill and drillbits? am i supposed to pick up the long or short pins from the BOL store? i only need two, right?

i figure that things like having to go back to stock are unrealistic and not gonna happen, but i'm trying to get actual explanations and hoping to not just be shot down with "you don't need to even think about that" (that is, if the issues touched on by the questions are in reality addressed by some riders. if not, feel free to give me this answer!) and questions being left unanswered. i feel like i know absolutely nothing about the BTS despite reading a lot about it and am just trying to feel like i have more than just a gist on their overall function so that i can make the modifications without taking the plunge simply because everyone's telling me to. i won't deny that everyone else that has done these mods should know better than i what needs to be done for my setup, but i'm starting to get all control-freaky in presence of the possibility of needing to perform some crazyass surgeries on my boots.

though they may be a tad too big, i'm quite attached to these boots, and don't really want to deal with the hassle of juggling around money/expensive boots to exchange for one that's my size. part of it also has to do with the fact that i bought them new, and don't want to trade for one that has already seen moderate or more use. i've already been suggested in my shin bang thread to upgrade the liners, downsize the boots, etc. please take any further talks about that back to the shin bang thread, and understand that i have heard them and am NOT dismissing them but am deciding to stick it out for now and put that stuff off 'til later. i appreciate that input already given so much from everybody here! however, for now i will resort to ankle wraps and thick superfeets, because i still need to buy footbeds, and the rest of the too-big-boot fixes i'm after are quite cheap and i want to see how they turn out.

[Dave ESPI]

Wun, have you adjusted the lean all the way forward yet in the rear foot stock boot so there is virtualy no "walk" mode ?

It was wonderfull for me once I did that, and with thick Carhardt boot socks they are the best boots for me, and I can really relate to not wanting to just dump boots (as they are indeed very expensive and we get mentaly/emotionaly attached to them). I tried 2 other kinds of boots before the HEADs and didnt like the fit and feel. I kinda just got "lucky" when I splurged for the Heads sight-unseen and unworn head Stratos Pros as I had borrowed a friends Head Stratos (orange) boots that were size 31.5 and were a tad too big and sloppy. I downsized to a 30 when I ordered mine and they were perfect.

I've been tossing the notion around about getting a BTS for my boots, but until I am convinced they are a "necessity" for me, I will stick with what I have in the stock boots. Im a 148# rider, and can definately say that the boots can take a lot of abuse as I've busted boards (and ma ass) a few times, so don't discount your weight as a weak area in relation to the boots. If you were able to try a 1 size smaller boot, you should go for it. Call the company/person you got the Heads from. ask if they have a size smaller, or look around and see if someone localy has a pair you can tryout. If you are still slipping out of your boot, a BTS won't help.

Just my opinion on the subject :)

[Ladia]

Do some search. This was discussed here so many times. I also posted how to do BTS on Tahoe carvers page. Or stop at KW and I will show you my boot modification. I will not go this weekend it looks ugly, but I will be at Squaw next Saturday and at KW on Sunday.

[Wun]

feel free to point me to any threads or pages that directly answer my questions. i hadn't been able to find any before writing my thread. after some additional digging, only thing i have an answer for is ONE person saying to get four long pins for the install with no direct response to that comment. can anyone confirm that? any chance of having to go short with small (24m) feet?

anyway, back to more digging

edit:

please allow me to elaborate further. meant no disrespect. i just hope you can imagine how much forum-digging and how long it would take to hope to find some of the answers i'm looking for. i'm asking these questions because they're not directly answered in most of the threads that come up from search and think that many of them can be answered by others with the experience, not to mention in much far less time than it would take me to look up a fraction of the answers. i've already spent $460+$40(used intec)+$30(eliminators to aid a shinbang problem that still isn't even completely fixed) for these boots and am still yet to possibly spend $25(boosters) + >=$30(superfeet) + ~$10(anklewraps & other fit fixes) + ~$75(used BTS if i can find any and other parts and tools needed to install). i am just a college student with a part-time job, and the expenses so far have already been a huge blow; i'm trying to get a good grasp on what i'm getting myself into before i drop another bucket of money. anyway, i will be going out boozing now and will continue my digging later. cheers

[Ladia]

Wun stop at KW and I can tell you what I know about it, while we are sitting on thier slow lifts. I do not like to write novel on the net.

[michael.a]

Hey Wun, you are way overanalyzing this ****, do you have OCD or something? I also sat for hours reading about HPS tuning here and on extremecarving and how to install the BTS and which springs and this and what that and astrophysics and fluid dynamics... shut up. I gave up just bought the BTS with yellow springs cut off the wings and am happy as pie, and I weigh 185pds.

First of all you bought way too stiff boots for 120pounds (go eat a burger man). So either sell the boots or cut everything out and put a BTS with yellow springs.

[Maxlanaudiere]

+1 on cutting off the wings .

I have not installed the BTS yet but cutting the wings off made a big difference for me. Especially on the rear boot, much MUCH more confortable.

[Wun]

if nothing else, someone could at least answer the questions on relative stiffness and static lean before i give this whole thing a rest, right?

[OhD]

When your angles are greater than 45 degrees, the lateral stiffness of the boot has more influence on edging than does forward flex. The boot starts to take on more of the edging and your leg muscles can be used more to absorb bumps. Bending your knees still changes the board angle WRT the snow, but a given amount of knee bend rolls the board less than does the same amount of bend with small binding angles. To convince yourself, consider the extreme cases of angles of 0 and 90 degrees.

When your knees are bent, moving them left or right (doing the twist or spreading your knees) can apply somewhat independent amounts of roll to the board at each binding, by using the lateral stiffness of the boot to give you leverage. Same principle works if you keep your legs bent but in a neutral position and simply shift your hips side to side. The boots couple laterally with the long leg bones to give you lots of leverage to crank the board up onto an edge.

Soft boots give away a lot of this leverage, particularly on toeside (two torn calf muscles have persuaded me of this). Soft boots at high angles give away too much since the calf muscles and ankles can't exert enough torque on the board to do much good and the boots have little lateral stiffness. At low angles, they are somewhat better on heelside, but if you want to bend your knees to absorb bumps or flex and extend through a turn, your butt's gonna bounce (since the ankle angle is pretty much set by the highbacks - you can't lift your toes that hard for long), and you need a wide board to keep the bindings and boots inboard of the edges (compounding the lack of leverage).

One of the beauties of hardbooting is that you can flex and extend drastically without dragging your butt or messing up your edging angle. With softies you have to vary the angle of the ankles about as much as the hips, and the knee angle is changed by the sum of the two.

Softening your boots forward flex has little effect on the lateral stiffness, so you still will have most of the edging power and increase the comfort. Less forward stiffness gives you less help resisting compression when you're hitting bumps or pulling g's, but it makes the bumps easier to absorb (without killing your shins and getting knocked around). You do lose a little bit of ability to modulate the edging angle with knee bend alone - you have to compensate with more lateral knee movement (relative to the hips and ankles) - but it's not hard to make the adjustments in technique.

When you start to need the stiff flex to help you resist the centripetal force you're generating when you master all this leverage, you'll have my deepest sympathy. At that point you have to either hit the weight room or shell out for some new boots.

I hope this helps clarify your thinking about the purposes of hardboots and the modifications you might want to make.

Advantages of the BTS over the stock lean adjuster/spring set in the Heads: You never forget to put them in ride mode, the travel is considerably greater and the end of travel is more pragressive - not so much of a hard stop, they never aggravate you by failing to latch into ride mode, and lots more adjustability of the neutral position. With softer flex, I don't really miss the walk mode at all.

[leeho730]

* what does that mean?

> It means that using different combinations of springs and pre-load, you can micro-adjust stiffness, unlike ordinary boots which usually employ two different sets of tongue to adjust stiffness (that means you effectively get only two different stiffness for you boots, unlike infinite amount of adjustment you can do with BTS).

* since the BTS allows rearward flex toward the heelside, does that necessarily mean the red springs for the rearward are softer than stock rearward flex?

> I would say that red springs would be slightly softer than stock rearward flex, but not much.

because of the whole not being able to stand on carpet with anything less than 3-6, it sounds like i'm SIMPLY just putting some slop into the boots and "downgrading" the boots to those more like a softer pair so i can get into the neutral stance more easily. is this a distorted perception?

> Probably not.

* what is the range of adjustable static lean enveloped by the BTS system relative to the range in the stock HSPs?

> Would be similar, although with BTS you don't have convenience of 1-2-3 system; instead you adjust preload by turning the dial. A bit harder to achieve. But then again, if you want to achieve static lean on BTS, why bother? That's not the whole point of BTS.

* what is the range of adjustable stiffness enveloped by all color combinations of BTS springs relative to the range in the stock HSPs?

> 9 combinations of springs + ability to micro-adjust pre-load to increase or decrease stiffness. So, in reality, very vast range of adjustable stiffness is provided.

* 'cause, let's say hypothetically i get crazy good and crazy aggressive (though i'm only 120 lb, and this upcoming question kind of ties back to the other one asking about the range of stiffness accomodated by all BTS spring colors; don't know how max stock and max red spring stiffness compare). will i outprogress BTS with red springs and have to buy some stock boots in the future? i'm kind of turned off of the idea of having to use more newbie-friendly gear and having to upgrade down the road. if the only problem is just the fact that it's a matter of time before i overwhelm the boots and have to go back to stock, i'd rather just leave it as i would use it were i an exxxxpurrrt carver

> No. Then again, it's a personal preference. You can set static lean with BTS if you wish, by maximizing the pre-load in different positions.

* how am i supposed to deal with deciding the colors? rather than stopping at suggesting a colorset (i assume everyone will just say go all yellow for 120 lbs, and i won't argue against that), can someone also add a guideline in words of which to use sort of like how booster strap does in graph form? (something not so abstract like the BTS page in the BOL store) everyone's going to suggest yellow all-around for me, right?

> I's overwhelming. I am 140lbs and I'm happy with yellow but someone who races might want blue or even red. It's personal preference thing; no one can know, only you can find out by trying various sets of springs. Add factors such as different riding style, overall stiffness of gears, how strong a rider's legs are...

All I know is that some riding style recommends specific sets of springs. For example, extremecarving uses yellow-yellow.

Hope this helps....

[jp1]

Wun, I'll make a serious attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

I honestly do NOT know what 'Relative Stiffness or Static Lean' are. 'Relative Stiffness', relative to what (I can only 'assume' to other boots).To my knowledge there is no stiffness chart for Alpine Boots, experienced riders know from their experience what brands and models ride stiffer than others. Fit characteristics such as volume & last of different brands & models I believe are achieved the same way, hence speculative, not scientific.

Question: * what is the range of adjustable stiffness enveloped by all color combinations of BTS springs relative to the range in the stock HSPs?

Answer (jmo): the range of adjustable stiffness by all color combinations of BTS I would guess is infinite. You have (6) different, (3) top and (3) bottom and or any combination thereof of spring rates. In addition to the spring rates, you have the ability to adjust the preload of each spring. On top of this, the location of the Top Pin will affect how the springs 'feel'. While I'm sure it is possible to mathematically figure out the answer, I doubt anyone has done it. To me, for all intent and purpose (for this application) I believe it to be infinite.

Question: * what is the range of adjustable static lean enveloped by the BTS system relative to the range in the stock HSPs?

Answer (jmo): First off, the BTS was NOT designed for Head boots. Therefore any installations to Head boots are a modification to the system's original design. The location of the Top Pin is critical, and with a Head boot the person 'modifying' (installing) the BTS has to choose that location. Obviously one of the things the Top Pin location affects is the 'static lean' of the boot, so in reality the installer can determine the static lean by where the Top Pin is located. Keeping in mind, as this Top Pin location changes, so does the amount of available Adjustment for Spring Preload.

I can only 'guess' that the measurement between the Top Pin and the Bottom Pin for which boot the BTS was designed for (I forget the Brand off-hand) should be used to keep the BTS geometry as close to what it was designed for.

I have done 3 pair of Head boots, and I located the Top Pin for my desired forward lean. Along with the BTS, I did the Modifications (to the Max) and would not recommend any other way. I did not measure the the amount of forward lean available with the stock HSP's, but believe the Modifications at least DOUBLED it! The amount of friction between the plastic parts of the boot is unbelievable (until you do the Modifications, and see & feel it for yourself, you would not believe it).

I hope this has helped to answer your questions. In reality the boots have to fit properly :) or any addition or modification will only be a waste of time and money.

Good Luck - jp1

[Wun]

thank you guys very much for your time. the responses were helpful, and some parts of them touched up really well where i most felt unsure.

[Kimo]

I have tried ursle wing cutting mod and it works great for me 74"/205#. You might also try removing the tongue stiffeners (the gray tabs on the orange boots, don't know what other color they might be on other boots). They just unbolt.

[SEJ]

Wun, one thing not mentioned so far is that the flex is constant, independent of temperature. That was the whole concept.The springs don't get hard when it's cold or soft when it's warm like the plastic shell or tongue does. I'm 175# in Indies, intermediate, and I'm in yellows. Replacement springs, if you want to go stiffer, aren't that expensive.

[Ladia]

JP1 had some valuable points. Friction between parts is enormous. I recently compare new and well used boots. Big difference. I actually am getting back to old boots on back foot. When you take a boot apart you can clearly see places where the plastic slowly had ground itself off. It takes time or you need fully disassemble boot and make some grinding. Position of upper pin is absolutely critical. I would first run boots with standard leaning mechanism and fully loose spring to find best forward lean before you start to drill. You have about two chances to drill the holes in right position. More than that and your boot will be like a Swiss cheese. Also about springs. I found even yellow to be too stiff for my taste. I am using much softer spring, you can get almost any stiffness for die tool springs manufactures, Lee spring co, Marathon springs just of the top my head. Also I am using spring with smaller outside diameter. Original one rub on BTS housing. This is probably because it was designed for different boot.

About another JP1’s point. Overall stiffness of the boot

We can choose from 3 boots. Raichle Heads and UPZ. There was in recent weeks lot of written about boots here, but I still cannot get any definitive answer. Which are softest and which has the biggest toe box? But there is not probably any definitive answer. The best is to try fit for you, but it is impossible thing. Where in the US is somebody carrying all three boots in your size? If I were not lazy old fart, I would dump my step- in on back foot and went back to ski boots. There is enormous market and I would probably find pair which will work just right.