Bordy says: leave the Swoard in the Scabbard

[nigelc]

I have been actively involved with sailing at a reasonable level for 20 years. I have long since stopped reading reviews of yachts as they so often did not coincide with my experience of the same products. This long held conviction was recently confirmed to me by an internationally regaded american freind when his review of a yacht for the most prominent U.S. cruising yacht magazine was rejected because"it did not contain enough positives". He has told me privately that the yacht in question was an overpriced shoddily built deathtrap.

Long live the honest opinion - those I agree with and those I don't.

[fivat]

To everyone:

if you test a Swoard, please choose only the proper Swoard.

I hate the Swoard 175H and 175M, hehe ;) I love the 168H...

Read my reply to Bordy here:

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6408&highlight=#6408

Patrice Fivat

[Jack M]

Come on. Bordy is an experienced racer and carver. Maybe you should try to disect the article and figure out why he reached his conclusions, rather than hastily dismissing it as stupid. I have to wonder if the snow conditions played a part. Despite what I read as an overall "thumbs down" from that review, I am still interested to try a Swoard on some good cord (like in the ec movies) and see for myself. Deciding the board sucks after reading a review from one guy riding a board one day in one set of conditions, well, that would be... not so bright.

[~tb]

First of all, Bordy, applause on the review. Call it how you see it.

Secondly, everyone else, read the review, realize its one persons oppinion as to how the board worked for him. Take it with a grain of salt, and develop your own oppinion. The madd 158 and me for example. . . just DONT work together. I see other people do incredible things with that board and am blown away, but put me on a 158, and I ride and look like $%^@!

Thirdly . . . I would like to introduce the Bobb Buggs (I believe hes the one that told this to me) Freak Factor theory. . . There are some "Freaks" out there . . . Freaks of nature, that seem to be able to do just about anything, on just about any piece of equipment you hand them. Truly impressive to see. These individuals could sell you any board they wanted, because they could go out on an old P.O.S. rip it up, and tell you it was the board that was that good, and you would buy it! Patrice and Jacque are THAT good. Love him or hate him . . . CMC is THAT good. John Gilmour . . . is that good. To shoot down one mans honest review, because of video you have seen does not make his review garbage, especially if you realize, that those individuals in the videos would look that good, riding any one of these:

.

Just my 2 cents! Lets keep it civil. The snow is almost here.

~tb

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Barry

Hi All,

sometimes I feel as if this site reeks of a negative vibe

On my motorcycle list we have a term for the funk that descends upon the list over the winter months when people can't ride and are more likely to snipe at each other online: PMS - parked motorcycle syndrome.

It's early fall, and we're all jonesing. Not that it excuses anybody to get pissy, but it's a fact of life.

[nils]

I personnaly think bordy's review was fair and nicely written, even if I do not agree with all his conclusions...The fact that he was using a board not for his size and weight might have done a lot in the feel he had on the board! remember that its not a matter of beeing undergunned, or getting the big guy board to be cool, its just that we made whole the boards behave the same... It means the 161Soft has the same behaviour as the 175H, providing they are ridden by the guy with the matching size/weight.

The flexes are designed for each rider for the best EC compromise / experience on soft snow and very hard pack... It means people do not choose the board themselves, but we basically dictate what to ride in order for everyone to have the same pleasure as we do... Of course I remember at the SES a few riders did insist: "I want a 175" because i'm riding a DonCoiler 185..." and of course they were not as thrilled by their test as if they had tried the proper 168M for their size! Or same thing happened when the rider did not want to let go his 65° angles and 6° canting for the time of the test...

Bordy tried the board with the hardest flex and longest size on softer snow, and found it couldn't get fast...strange because usually when a guy using normally a 168 gets on the 175 he finds the flex and length more stable at speeds!

Yes extremecarving is a niche, but we ( and his review showed the same) believe the board we make is way more versatile than a pure race board... then its a question of choice for the rider, on what he likes, wants etc...Personnaly i like cruising laying turns, doing small jumps here and then, even cross a small pow field and i could not do it with ease on my former proton 172...I like the precision you have on a race deck; but for me they lack versatility!

As for the nose behaviour: the nose particular shape and scoop is designed to initiate the turn, force the board to carve the way its designed too, but at the same time not locking the turn...On the vids, especially on the extremecarving movie ( 1st one, on a backside by patrice in slow motion) we can see the way the nose guides the board through various snow conditions without ever having the back ( rider+board) loose that edge ).. The nose is basically soft with the carbon matrix that guides it and forces it to stick back to the snow after a bump for example... I personnaly think it is a good quality to have the nose act as a bumper, not a trampoline ( you don't want to loose an edge when u do EC turns on steep slopes)..

Backside the nose tends to always want to go uphill, especially when the rider is not using the good rotation technique, and the balance of the rider is tricky because if too much on the tail, the edge will chatter and loose edge... its basically the riders fault each time! Because believe me, when you follow Pat's tracks, the cut is clean, wide in the center of the turn, but not really what i'd call a slide! Everytime my backside edge chatters, i Know its because I forgot to concentrate on the turn! ( a trick is to get the back arm to reach for the opposite side of the stomach: this forces a rotation!)...

Nils

[Derf]

I read Bordy's review, and from what I could tell, he was trying to love the board and have fun with it. He wanted to make it work. But it didn't. I have never seen Bordy ride nor have I ever met him, so I can't say anything about his riding or his character. But he is clearly not bashing the EC guys and their board on purpose, he's just giving his honest opinion.

Derf

[Bordy]

Patrice,

Thanks for the honest beta about your board and the differences in size. I would love to ride the 68H. However I have no plans to travel to Europe this year. I will keep an eye out for anyone sporting a Swoard as I do see a few every year here in the states. I am sure I will get a chance to ride one again. My quiver does range in size from 149s up to 195s and up I ride a lot of different sizes and shapes And felt as though I really gave the Swoard a fair ride.

It may also be important to note that in the review I stated the board became unstable in the upper 20s that means around 40-45 km/h the board began to react different and perform unlike it did at the slower speeds.

Everyone else.

I also gave several very positive remarks regarding the Swoard that have of course been overlooked on the BOL site, that many of your EC posters have been kind enough to point out. I have not ridden a large amount of high end hand made carving product from Europe and think it is only fair to mention the large difference in performance between a handmade North American world cup race stock product and the Swoard. After all most High end carvers in the states are looking to Donek, Proir, and Coiler as their board suppliers and are, as I was, expecting a similar amount of stability and dampness at speed from the Swoard as well, only it was not quite there yet. I do believe the swoard fills a niche you have done a great job in developing and believe the Review clearly stated that. I as a rider I thank you and your EC crew for striving to keep Hardbooting innovative and fresh, the swoard defiantly cuts the cord unlike any other product out there and due to its width allows some interesting riding style and technique. I do honestly feel there are other alpine boards out there that hold a better carved turn at much higher speeds and it would be unfair as an unbiased reviewer not to include that info. Also my closing statement of some free ride models that I rode on the same hill as the swoard on the same or following day, although unwelcome on either site reflect the overall stability of several top freeride sticks with a wide waist that I felt held up to the riding characteristics of the swoard some times even maintaining a better flex pattern within the speed limits of each product. It is fare to say the swoard can be ridden harder than any twin tip small radius free ride board, basied on shape and flex alone but when you include the control, stability, and dampness of many high end free ride sticks that do not display the nose bounce or tail fold like the swoard did in the same condition at speed should be normal considering the budget many large company invest into R&D.

Thank you for visiting Hardbooter.com and reading the reveiw. I have also posted reviews about other products that have not created such a buzz online I hope you enjoyed them also and welcome any feedback.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks for your responses, Billy. Like any review, the writer has to call it like he sees it and the reader has to take it in context. I think people have all the pertinent facts and can make their own minds up now.

I'm looking forward to more reviews from you, that section in your site is a little thin yet. I did find both of the other reviews very informative (one on Thermoflex liners, the other on Raichle/Deeluxe boots), I especially liked how they covered the whole product line rather than just one item. I wasn't aware of all the development history with the Thermoflex.

As you've ridden so many other boards, have you considered writing similar review pieces with comments on a number of boards in one product line? That would be very helpful.

[Vahur]

Seems like Jack had nothing to do and posted link to Bordy's review under provocative subject title to create heated debate. But unfortunately for him neither Bordy nor Swoard team fell on it :D

Anyway, this Swoard review is first board review on hardbooters and I do believe, that if there were more reviews, then all the readers would have accustomed to straightforward and no-salesman-bull**** opinion from him and accepted this without much ado. But now bored from long lack of winter on northern hemisphere carvers got mad like dogs on heated summer day.

I'm happy to own Swoard and happy, that Bordy liked this board on slow-to-him (aka Ride the Edge) speeds, this is good enough to me. And if someone can prove I'm wrong by donating better board then I'm ready to change my opinion :D

And bottom line: do not attack people, but their opinions! No need to get personal.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Bordy

Patrice,

I also gave several very positive remarks regarding the Swoard that have of course been overlooked on the BOL site, that many of your EC posters have been kind enough to point out. I have not ridden a large amount of high end hand made carving product from Europe and think it is only fair to mention the large difference in performance between a handmade North American world cup race stock product and the Swoard. After all most High end carvers in the states are looking to Donek, Proir, and Coiler as their board suppliers and are, as I was, expecting a similar amount of stability and dampness at speed from the Swoard as well, only it was not quite there yet. I do believe the swoard fills a niche you have done a great job in developing and believe the Review clearly stated that. I as a rider I thank you and your EC crew for striving to keep Hardbooting innovative and fresh, the swoard defiantly cuts the cord unlike any other product out there and due to its width allows some interesting riding style and technique. I do honestly feel there are other alpine boards out there that hold a better carved turn at much higher speeds and it would be unfair as an unbiased reviewer not to include that info. Also my closing statement of some free ride models that I rode on the same hill as the swoard on the same or following day, although unwelcome on either site reflect the overall stability of several top freeride sticks with a wide waist that I felt held up to the riding characteristics of the swoard some times even maintaining a better flex pattern within the speed limits of each product. It is fare to say the swoard can be ridden harder than any twin tip small radius free ride board, basied on shape and flex alone but when you include the control, stability, and dampness of many high end free ride sticks that do not display the nose bounce or tail fold like the swoard did in the same condition at speed should be normal considering the budget many large company invest into R&D.

Thank you for visiting Hardbooter.com and reading the reveiw. I have also posted reviews about other products that have not created such a buzz online I hope you enjoyed them also and welcome any feedback.

Thanks again for letting us pick you brain. With you added commentary, I think I have all the information I wanted as Neil said.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Vahur

Seems like Jack had nothing to do and posted link to Bordy's review under provocative subject title to create heated debate. But unfortunately for him neither Bordy nor Swoard team fell on it

Actually I was hoping we'd have the exact discussion that has now taken place.

[eddie]

Nice discussion. I really enjoyed it!

;)

[fivat]

Hi Bordy,

Thanks for your reply and your politeness. Yes, your review is long and contains also positive remarks. At start I even told to myself: "Ah, finally a less good review than the ones from other riders" :D However the words "leave the Swoard in the scabbard" are not nice and people who don't read the posts in detail will focus only on this.

Here are two problems in my opinion:

1) You tested a board (175H) that is made (width, flex, torsional stiffness) for riders who are +84 kilos (some of our customers are 100 kilos!) and +181 cm. You should have used a 168H or even a 168M... It's important. Even if you are used to long boards from other brands (that are made for your weight and that are not so wide), the Swoard 175H is absolutely not designed for your weight and size, whatever your skill is.

I have no doubt that you are honest and sincere. But imagine that I test a board which doesn't really suits to me: a small and too soft 154 board from another brand. I would say that I don't like some points, and could write honestly and sincerely why in details.

I know the guy (Jean-Paul Ohaco from Chile) who lent you the board. I exchanged some e-mails with him a few months ago. His order was a mistake: he should have bought a 168H, not a 175H. This summer (winter in South America) we sent him the proper board, and he told me that he really liked it, while he had problems of course with the 175H (he disliked it!). On 18th August 2004 he writes about the 168H: "This board works really good".

2) You have tested the board for only a half day apparently when you met Jean-Paul Ohaco at the lift. As explained on the Website, it may take 1-2 days for someone to get used to the Swoard, and especially to the EC technique (developed for this board, thanks to this board). Fortunately people feel already at start the potential of the Swoard. Last season at the Extremecarving Session (ECS '04) it was really funny to see how some testers progressed a lot in 3 days!

From a marketing point of view, the Swoard is a bad product ;) because one can't test it really in a few runs. One sees nothing special on the outside of the board (except the wideness), and one has to learn the EC technique explained on our Website.

To conclude, I would just mention that I was surprised to see on Harbooter.com that the only and first board review you have posted is the one about the Swoard 175H. You have mentioned you have a large quiver. So why have you not posted reviews about some of your boards you use a lot? And why do you make a review about a board that you have tested for a half day in wet snow, and that is note suited to you?

Sorry for my bad English, or my eventual misapprehensions.

Keep your Website growing! Thanks for what you do for the alpine scene.

Patrice Fivat

[Guest Doug M]

I thought the review was well written.I have ridden hundreds of different boards and found the comments and comparisons to other boards well thought out.It does some things well and other things not so well.Good review.

Doug M

[Bordy]

Patrice,

It was not I who choose the post name, “ Bordy says leave the swaord in the scabbard” It was the threads originator. I closed my review with this statement>

“The wide width of the board has several benefits. It allows the rider to run less angle and provides better float in crud and variable conditions allowing the board to be more stable at slower speeds. However other boards provide the same rider angle options by simply incorporating lift on a more narrow board. The Swoard might be in your quill as a specialty board if you're not willing to ride softies but still want to ride the crud and pow and have a bit of money to burn. But if you are rider who prefers speed on groomers, this board will spend more time in your quiver than on the snow.”

I stand behind my review, and do truly feel I rode the swoard in the manner it was designed to be ridden. I am familiar with the web site and have followed its development. Often practicing the style on many types and shapes of boards. Using the same technique, stance and cant suggestions; as would any US rider prior to purchasing a Swoard. I will try to provide a link to EC style turn taken before and after I rode the swoard. I am confident that I felt the characteristic of your product.

I understand The board was not designed for my size and build and I am outside of the boards rider profile. But I ride many boards a year that are not designed around my size(Usually for some world cup rider) and feel as though I am able to form a professional opinion This is what I did in my review.

This was the first board review I wrote for Hardbooter.com and it got a good enough response to prompt me to write more. As a web sit we to are striving to provide a foundation for Alpine enthusiast. As a alpine rider Your board shape and riding style are only one part of the entire alpine sport.

I considered the review of your product as Hardbooters first review, exciting because the EC style is just that and many US riders are interested As I stated earlier I am happy to spend more time on the product perhaps even doing a seasonal review if provided with the proper gear. Look for more reviews on boards from skwals to Pow stick and all the carvey widths and styles to ride then in-between.

We at Hardbooter.com love the EC site and thank you for your honest response and rebuttals. We will keep our eyes out for any swoard we see and try to ride it.

Until then we will have to make do practicing our Extreme Carving on what we have.

a week before I rode the swoard same snow conditions Flat cant on a 20.5 waist wdth 26.0cm indy and minumum angles. Try to get my EC on.....Board madd 158 first day on it 2nd run.

[kjl]

Hey, I just want to put in my 2c with my opinion of the Swoard. Note that I am not a particularly good carver yet (2 years of carving, so ~100 days on hard boots, maybe ~30 on the Swoard), and more importantly I am not that good at the particular EC style, and Patrice can definitely attest to that.

That in mind, the way I see the EC style turn (the push-pull turn) is that it is essentially a very protracted cross-under transition that starts directly following the "scrape your nipples all over the snow" part of the turn, in an attempt to minimize the maximum G-force during the latter half of every turn. This in contrast to the other kind of turn that I do which I believe is the "bomber" style, which is to deal with that maximum G-force by assuming the most efficient position in terms of both shock absorption and angulation (i.e. very bent knees and as much angulation as possible in hips/shoulders/hip twist), and using those to combat the G-force directly.

The net result is more pressure at the end of the turn doing a regular turn and less pressure with the EC turn - hence the much softer flex in the Swoard than in my other carving board (Donek FC1).

This is how I feel the boards behave:

Doing a regular bomber-style (or whatever you call that) turn:

- Donek FC1 (171cm, 11.2m sidecut, stiffer flex): holds a turn better at high speeds. You set that edge in there and it just holds you in.

- Swoard (161m, 12.1m sidecut, softer flex): despite having a longer sidecut, starts to wash out a little earlier than the Donek.

Doing an EC-turn (really, really exaggerated push-pull cross-under turns):

- Donek FC1 : Fights me as I try to suck my knees into my chest - the board is stable and damp enough that it doesn't want to let me do anything like that. I can force the board to come back under me by first pushing hard first, and letting the rebound bring the board underneath me.

- Swoard : snappiness really encourages the board to suck back underneath me. Sometimes snaps me airborne. Really fun.

I actually really like riding both boards, but to me, I have a little more fun riding the Swoard, just because it seems a little snappier and more maneuverable. Maybe not as stable at high speeds? Definitely true for me, but I'm not very good at push-pulling when I'm scared... yet :) But I find that for doing fun free-carving, like doing very dynamic push-pulling or getting airs off of little lumps or ridges in the snow (or sometimes airs off of nothing, just because of the snappiness), it is a very rewarding ride.

[D-Sub]

are the styles really that different?

over at the EC forum, nils made a statement that "our" style is more race oriented...

Ive never raced in my entire life...

sometimes I think we think about this too much. too much tech, not enough soul...?

but I was just curious

here's nils post quoted:

"Bordy's review, added to a few experiences I made last season, lead me to the following reflexion: we are facing two totaly different styles: race (or bomber) style and EC style. There mechanical fonctionnings are so different (even in opposite) that they need totaly different equipment.

The goal of race style (as you can see in this video: www.stoked.at/clips/sigi_grabner.mpg) is to win GS races in any snow condition. My own (short) racing experience shows me that one condition to keep the edge on icy and shaking race track is to put the maximum possible pressure on the edge during the turn. Race riders are jumping on there board , squeezing there equipment the most they can. This is why they need stiff narrow board and stiff boots. I tried this style last season but had the feeling that my board was too wide and too soft. My boots seemed too soft too.

The goal of EC style is to laid out turns of course, but also to provide a cool liberty feeling and a maximum of fun. My own sensitivity leads me to a style that is between agressive hardbooting and the smooth freestyle you can see in the half-pipe. Of course, the equiment follows the same way: it is neither totaly stiff, nor totaly hard.

The way we ride is in opposition as race style: instead of providing huge forces on the edge, we trie to limit them. This is the reason of the "push-pull" turn. This is why we start our turns when the board is perpendicular to the slope.

The Swoard is optimized to our style. It is not recommended to race style (but I'm not sure it could'nt be efficient in a race with the proper technique...).

"

confused

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub

are the styles really that different?

over at the EC forum, nils made a statement that "our" style is more race oriented...

Ive never raced in my entire life...

I tried to touch upon this in my post to Bordy, but I think it got muddled. I had the same thought at Nils in the different styles. I think what he means is that the "New England" style is very good for racing, because it allows for getting maximum edge pressure on the board to get the hardest, deepest trenches possible. This will allow to to carve hard tight turns between gates and change edges quickly to flip from side to side.

On the flipside (from what I understand), the EC style basically tries to maximize body lean and maintain only enough edge pressure it support the needed lean. Futhermore, the style inolve continuous are wide turns (as opposed to tighter, harder turns with with a more "streamlined" raceline). The super "circular" turns and the lack of "clearance" for gates make EC-style rather inefficient for getting down the mountain the fastest "i.e. racing." So it's not so much that all New England style rider are racers, it's that all EC-style riders are *not* racers and can never be efficient racers without changing their style, while a NE could run a race without much difference.

Just my thoughts

[D-Sub]

good way to look at it. thanks.

I cant help but feel like "they" look down on "us"

(altho, apparently "someone" thinks the converse is true according to the post he made in another thread)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub

good way to look at it. thanks.

I cant help but feel like "they" look down on "us"

(altho, apparently "someone" thinks the converse is true according to the post he made in another thread)

To me it's a classic in-group / out-group dynamic - people have a general tendency to prefer their own group and shift their value system to match the features of their own group.

There was a psych experient done in the 1950's called the Robber's Camp had interesting results.

Another one (forgot the name) which they randomly gave half the people in the study black wristband - automatically the black wrist banded group congregated together in the "waiting" room. When the testers formed evenly "mixed" groups and gave them team exercises... later each person always subconsciously rated the performance/contribution of people in the same "faction" higher than the "other" group, even though the wristbands were actually randomly given.

[nils]

You quoted Jacques, not me :)

And i'm not sure its about "we're right, you're wrong stuff, or we're better you're lame either..." We prefer to develop our extra rotation style, but basically we do it for fun purposes, not to gain an eventual glory, or make a point... On the snow you are alone with your board, and we want to make certain turns that need that particular style to be performed....

That's basically it! If i wanted to go faster, i'd surely use another technique and a narrower board!

:D

Nils

[D-Sub]

nils, your attitude is A++++++ all the way, my man. respect. 100%

there are a few cats on your site that are far too defensive though. Obviously you have no control over that and it has zero to do with you

didnt mean to hint at it. and if I got the quote wrong, my bad

if we were talking in person Id shake your hand though, simply for the level of maturity and tact youve displayed since Bordy's "attack" was pointed out.

[skywalker]

...which is right for Swizerland, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Poland, Chech Republic and Estlonia.

Obviously you have no control over that

well, dear D-Sub. Would be really bad, if he had. Just think about ;)

[skywalker]

Just wanted to mention the most common nationalties in the EC-forum. Of course there are others, too ;)