Bordy says: leave the Swoard in the Scabbard

[Jack M]

http://www.hardbooter.com/articles.php?id=22

interesting.

[nils]

thnx jack for link

answered there:

Here EC forum

Maybe riders feedback will answer too...

We do meet people that are race oriented and do not like the way the board turns, however its not so common.. so Bordy's advice has to be read with his race eyes.... although some of the speed comments are a bit ... strange!

Nils

[lonerider]

Originally posted by nils

thnx jack for link

answered there:

Here EC forum

Maybe riders feedback will answer too...

We do meet people that are race oriented and do not like the way the board turns, however its not so common.. so Bordy's advice has to be read with his race eyes.... although some of the speed comments are a bit ... strange!

Nils

I have to agree with the posts by Nils on the EC forum.

First, Bordy's speed estimates are definitely wrong. Clearly on the video they are going much faster than 20 mph... I mean I can sprint at like 18 mph for 100m (would be an 12.5 second 100m, Olympic runners run it in ~9.85 and hence would bat me by a whopping 30 meters). That would mean if I raced Bordy down the slope with him going at 20 mph and turning and I went straight down... I would easily beat him down the slope.

So either he is going REALLY slow, or he just doesn't judge speed well (since he's an expert racer... he could be going 50-60 mph thinking it it's a stroll in the park)

After reading the review... Bordy seems to have the mindset "if I can't do it after my first day of riding... then no one can!" Considering he's an expert racer, that has some merit... maybe... but let's make the minor assumption that he isn't the world more natural athlete and can pick up anything in a matter of minute. On the most general sense, I mean he says it felt great until he went too fast and wasn't able to control that board... which leads to two possibilities... 1) the board isn't doing it right 2) he hasn't gotten the hang of the riding style the board is designed for. Considering the footage in the video... it definitely looks like "some" people can do it with the proper model Swoard. So I doubt it's choice #1 despite what the article implies. Also I notice no mention of feedback and opinions from the rider Bordy borrowed the board from, who I believe was riding with him the whole time. Hasn't Bordy seen this guy ride his own board? Why no discussion of other rider's experience?

I should mention I've never ridden a Swoard and actually I don't think I would like that particular style of board and riding. In fact I find the Swoard to be a bit expensive... but I've seen footage of people doing awesome EC carves with it, so I have trouble believe that it's only fit "entry-level riders."

[Neil Gendzwill]

I dunno, exact speed quibbles aside, a very experienced, strong rider says the board washes out at speed. His "speed" may be quite different from your "speed". Take it for what it's worth. It is interesting to see the sorts of boards he compares it with for speed handling though.

[D-Sub]

lets not dismiss bordy's skills and sheer number of years on alpine equipment.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by D-Sub

lets not dismiss bordy's skills and sheer number of years on alpine equipment.

No kidding. One of the respondants called him a "non-stylish" rider, apparently based on photos on his website like this.

[D-Sub]

yup. I thought that was pretty lame, too.

Bordy may have come on pretty strong here more than once, but his riding is a separate matter, and he clearly knows his stuff.

hopin to ride with him and tille and skully someday

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

I dunno, exact speed quibbles aside, a very experienced, strong rider says the board washes out at speed. His "speed" may be quite different from your "speed". Take it for what it's worth. It is interesting to see the sorts of boards he compares it with for speed handling though.

I was in the middle of updating my post to reflect second-thoughts similar to yours and D-Sub's comments. Yes, I realize that Bordy is an extremely good rider.

But, let's take your postulate... let's say he has the wrong speed numbers... and he's really washing out at say 50-60 mph instead of 15-20 mph... hey, I would wash out my turns at a 50-60 mph with any board.... see what I mean... then his comments should be "only for entry-level riders... who go less than 50 mph on a completely inclinated EC carved turn".... which would mean about 90% of all riders.

What is interesting about the post is that minus the opinions... his experiences are a LOT like my first experience with alpine boards. I considered myself to be an advanced freerider and I could carve pretty well on my Salomon Definition board (could almost do a 360 degree carve) and I could hit speeds past 50 mph. However... it was a whole new ballgame for me on hardboots... I couldn't go faster than 20 mph (coasting for about 5 seconds) without feeling like I was going to fast, and I would wash out my turns on bothsides all over the place, and the angles felt all wrong, but I knew it was just that I had to relearn how to snowboard and I am slowly picking it up...

So my thought was that perhaps (PERHAPS) Bordy is being too impatient.

[D-Sub]

yeah...one day on a board that is advertised as DIFFERENT than most carving boards (meaning it needs a different approach) is a few days too few most likely

[CarvCanada]

yah, the Swoard definately demands a different style of riding than the Madd 158 which Bordy rides

it seems from the videos you need to set the board to decamber with lots of angulation, then push out to lock the board in a smaller radius as you completely eliminate angulation by inclinating to 90 degrees, extremely different form of riding

[CarvCanada]

obviously at least Jacques and Patrice can lock into EC going at least 40 km/h, look at Jacques carve at time 1:40 of Stoked.

[FTA2R]

Hi,

which video are you all referring to ? the EC "opus video."?

someone mentioned they went 50 mph or so. just curious, how did they arrive at this number?

thx,

Barry

[Bordy]

Jack thanks for the thread nice to see anyone visiting the site.

I’m glad you guys read the review, and I was very surprised by the ride of the Swoard just as you are by my review.

I ride lots off different gear and feel the time I spent (4 runs) was enough to judge the ride of the Swoard.

As for the speed I think it is important to note it was very warm around 54 degrees F and I was riding several very steep pitches as well as mellow groomers between pitches. The snow was soft and I could easily dig 4 to 6 inch deep trenches under full load in the middle of the turn.

The soft spring snow not only limited my speed but gave great support to really stand on the Swoard. It folded at around the speeds I indicate, at full lean, under full throttle, in the steeps, trying to Extreme Carve on it. It did perform well at slower cruising speeds and on mellow pitches.

I rode the swoard with the EC guys’ stance recommendations for cant and angles and feel as though I did a good job putting it though its paces with a honest attempt to maintain the EC style. I did try to ride the Swoard with several types of style and input changes, and found its flex and ride characteristics very quickly and was pleased with the slow speed handling.

I had also just jumped off one of Klugs’ old SG board with a 20.5 waist and a much larger radius. So the board width change and new stance angles felt plenty comfy after riding that Wide SG stick. Plus because off the soft spring snow I was riding the very soft and spongy Burton race plate. So the jump into a Catek was a welcomed surprise. (all-tough I do ride Cateks and Bomber T1 and 2s through out the year on different sticks). I also was very used to the catek and charged right into The Swoard.

I am lucky enough to ride many different boards. The photos of the Madd at the web site were also my first and only day riding that board and my new Indy’s fist day out, also. The shots we shot in the spring; 3-24-04 on Klugs old SG stick was my first day on that board as well. I also have an entire fleet of demo soft boot boards at my disposal and try to ride them all.

I probably ride over 40 different shapes a year not including industry demos.

I am happy to answer any question about any of my reviews at Hardbooter.com or here at BOL.

I just picked up 2 Doneks from Pete Thorndike last week they have both been his race stick at some point. Look for me to do a review on what I am hoping are some of Doneks best shapes and some serious binding showdowns, soon as the resorts open!

:D

[lonerider]

Hi, it looks like BOL is the most trafficked of the three forums, so I'll post here.

Update: I don't know about EC riding in slushy condition... Nils, do you have any thoughts about the riding conditions Bordy was in?

Respectfully, I am not so sure that you would be able to complete judge the ride of the Swoard in only 4 runs particularly because (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not familiar with the EC riding style (now realize I don't know much about EC myself - I'm just saying this as a general hypothetical). Reading your posts you talked about "imitating" the EC style you've seen other people do... so it sounds like your considerable experience is devoted the the "NE Style" of carving that is more applicable to racing. As such, I find it difficult to believe that you could fully absorb the dynamics of the new style AND the board at the same time.

You have ridden many boards... but most of them were race-orient boards with the same mindset. I think it is very clear the the Swoard makers were out to try and do something rather different. If would be like a F1 driver trying to judge the merits of a Drift car.

My second point is that your conclusions seem to be directly contradicted by other eurocarvers on the Swoard. Did you ever see John-Paul ride on his own board? Was he able to ride an EC at higher speeds than you? What was his reaction/rebuttal to you conclusions about the Swoard?

What about the riders in the EC video "Opus", they are definitely going at a decently fast speed on a rather steep pitch. If you look closely at the slow-mo sequences... you actually see the soft nose of the board flapping wildly (like you experience) but yet they are still able to maintain a full laid out carve (so it seems)...

Maybe (I'm guessing) it's because you are biased towards a "forward weighted" stance as would be good for say a Madd 158? How do you explain the differences between you experiences and the experiences of dedicated eurocarvers? (I just feel like these two viewpoints don't seem to be compatible as they are right now).

Again I would like to STRESS that I'm just trying to figure out why we have such differing opinions on the same board. I don't really know much about eurocarving, the Swoard, or even alpine snowboarding myself (only been here 1 year). I'm just trying to get to the bottom of things so to say as a purely intellectual problem and my observations are just based on my personal reasoning.

[Bordy]

Lone rider has several questions so I’ll try me best to answer them one at a time.

Q-1.

Respectfully, I am not so sure that you would be able to complete judge the ride of the Swoard in only 4 runs particularly because (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not familiar with the EC riding style (now realize I don't know much about EC myself - I'm just saying this as a general hypothetical). Reading your posts you talked about "imitating" the EC style you've seen other people do... so it sounds like your considerable experience is devoted the the "NE Style" of carving that is more applicable to racing. As such, I find it difficult to believe that you could fully absorb the dynamics of the new style AND the board at the same time.

A-1.

I pride my self on the ability to make many different styles of turns and would not say I am devoted to any style. I try instead to allow the board shape to dictate the style it is after all just a controlled descent. Part of being a season rider and the author or reviews is my ability to judge a product on its ride and the rider its suited for. Not only how it rides when I try to ride it but how it holds up to all types of riding. Because of the lack of EC instruction I instead had to base my riding off the articles and videos on the EC website, discussions and riding sessions with other snowboard professionals, and several thousand other turns similar to the EC style I had done over time. And with out sounding too witty I am very well practiced at turning the way some on else suggest, from many coach athlete relationships as well. Also I think it is important to note I have Been to Boon Lennons carving clinics which is the closes we Americans have seen to a EC clinic in the states.

If I would have ordered a Swoard I would have only received the same training as I did prior to riding it, I still would have had to find its “sweet spot’ on my own and I believe I tried my best and did so in the length of time I rode the Board.

Q-2

You have ridden many boards... but most of them were race-orient boards with the same mindset. I think it is very clear the the Swoard makers were out to try and do something rather different. If would be like a F1 driver trying to judge the merits of a Drift car.

A-2

Many of the boards I ride are not race boards. I try to ride a little of everything. Mostly I ride and test product for a retail chain. Or I give feedback on R and D product.

Q-3

My second point is that your conclusions seem to be directly contradicted by other eurocarvers on the Swoard. Did you ever see John-Paul ride on his own board? Was he able to ride an EC at higher speeds than you? What was his reaction/rebuttal to you conclusions about the Swoard?

A-3

Truthfully John-Paul and I are at much different ability levels I did see him ride his board and agree that he needed a much different product then he was on to aid his riding. The post at EC.com and John –Paul both made reference to him needing a much smaller and softer board I agree 100 percent and hope John-Paul is having as much fun riding every day as he was that day. He watched me ride his board and made several comments most of them in response of how well I rode his board which forced me to assume I was riding it correctly in his eyes as well. He listen to my on snow comments and we discussed how fun the EC is and how well the swoard product works for him as an intermediate rider

Q-4

What about the riders in the EC video "Opus", they are definitely going at a decently fast speed on a rather steep pitch. If you look closely at the slow-mo sequences... you actually see the soft nose of the board flapping wildly (like you experience) but yet they are still able to maintain a full laid out carve (so it seems)....

A-4

I have been following and discussing the EC style for some time I am familiar with the EC site and have seen the video “Opus”. The day I rode the Swoard It preformed as a wrote in the review. Also if the Nose of the board is flapping wildly under the skilled feet of the EC founders then how can it be a true carve? And why is it so hard to understand it did the same under my feet?

Q-5

Maybe (I'm guessing) it's because you are biased towards a "forward weighted" stance as would be good for say a Madd 158? How do you explain the differences between you experiences and the experiences of dedicated eurocarvers? (I just feel like these two viewpoints don't seem to be compatible as they are right now).

A-5

I am really about a stance and form that starts the turn with the nose, and finishes at the tail. I am happy to do what ever it takes in the middle, to make the turn happen with as much control and edge grip as possible. I think the differences between my experiences and the hardcore ECers may be my lack of time on a EC specific board like the swoard and since this is the first product of its type I think its still a very fair review. I have however spent years adjusting many riding styles to board shapes and feel the adjustments needed to ride the swoard where well within my ability.

Q-6

Again I would like to STRESS that I'm just trying to figure out why we have such differing opinions on the same board. I don't really know much about eurocarving, the Swoard, or even alpine snowboarding myself (only been here 1 year). I'm just trying to get to the bottom of things so to say as a purely intellectual problem and my observations are just based on my personal reasoning.

A-6

This really isn’t a question to answer and I can’t really understand your interest in the review from a consumer or riders point of view. I assume You are perplexed by my review not following the same form as the reviews on the web site that created the board and the way to ride it. I had the chance to ride a product many people would love to try I took it out and rode it with all the excitement any new Swoard owner would have. I then wrote a truthful review about the board I rode hoping to share its ride under my feet with everyone else, who had not. The story was Hardbooter Test drives a Swoard and thats what we did. It still had 2edges and we treated as needed!

That our program at Hardbooter we ride gear hard and try to tell you how it works for us.

We break stuff, we hate stuff, we love stuff… We are out there trying and riding gear from a unbiased point of view. Turn after Turn we Love to Snowboard and just want to share the love with other riders!

:D

[NateW]

Bordy, did you try eurocarving that same day, on those same runs, on other boards? I mean, to establish a baseline / control for the snow characteristics? What other board(s) did you use and how did it (they) compare?

(This is all academic to me, btw, I just like to extract as much information as possible from things like this. :) )

[Bordy]

Nate I did ride other boards EC style right after, I rode a 20.5 wide 193 17.5m R SG board doing some layed out turns at ludicrous speed. I then put my cateks on a ride timless 164 and went out and got it. It felt a lot like the swoard. Then I strapped on a Burton Speed 73 with a 20 com waist and a 14ishR and it felt much more stable then the swoard even though I had never ridden that board until that day also.

The next day I then rode several free ride boards in similar conditions with several bindings including Cateks and my Indys I was surprised how similar many big name free ride board felt under foot. Although the swoard is Alpine specific board and clearly carves better then the free ride boards I rode, I did feel similarities in feel and felt it was worth mentioning, and that it may be worth a trip out on a wide free ride board with plates to try out some EC turns before shelling out the cash for a swoard. If you like the EC style turn then get a EC style Stick!

[Guest AlpentalRider]

Look Bordy, if you didn't like the board, then you didn't like the board. But to sit there and say the board is only for beginners and can't ride at speed, and doesn't hold an edge are really stupid comments to make.

Those Opus videos don't lie, people can ride the SWOARDS laid out at high speeds without any problem. Are you claiming those videos must be fabricated? Or are you claiming that those riders aren't as good as you and that's why they don't have problems? Please, fill me in on this, I really would like to know.

The stupidest quote of all from your article was when you stated that the T6 and Custom X could hold an edge better then the SWOARD. Are you on some crack or something??? I own a Johan which is my primary board and which holds an edge way better then either the T6 or CustomX and there is no way it's getting better edge hold (especially at speed) then a SWOARD or any other decently manufactured alpine board. The turning radiuses alone on those boards will make them fold and wash out at the speeds you quoted!

You totally lose credibiility with such garbage statements that are obviously flat out wrong.

You took a basically good review on first impressions of a product, and negated it by sprinkling in a whole bunch of BS which didn't belong in the article. And this attitude that there is no way it could be your technique because your so l33t, so therefore it must be the equipment makes me wonder if your related to CMC...

[D-Sub]

aww come on, man. did you even read the other responses above?

is it so hard to keep things civil and not talk **** like that? Bordy's responses (and the review for that matter) were completely civil and clearly without malice

your last post, AR, is the worst of the bunch. Why feel so offended about a review of a board you dont own? Did Bordy say that the EC dudes suck? Did he even slightly intimate that the videos might be fabricated?

I dont even know why the hell Im getting into this but some of you guys are acting like little crybabys

[tilledog]

A far cry, my man..... He's giving HIS review of the board. Maybe you should do a review as well.

Davo

[Guest AlpentalRider]

I'm not offended, I'm aggrivated because someone of Bordy's ability and standing in the community shouldn't make such dumb blanket statements in a review that will be read and taken literally by people who respect that site.

I'm aggrivated because several of his statements flat-out aren't true (SWOARD not being able to be ridden at speed, that a CustomX can hold edge better, etc).

If some beginner rider posted the review all of you would be tearing him a new one, and telling him to get off his high horse and quite blaming the equipment.

My point is Gordy's "review" consisted of some good analysis sprinkled in with false statements and whining about the equipment while maintaining an attitude that he is such a good rider it couldn't be him.

I don't like elitist posters or reviewers, and I'll call bull**** when I see it. You don't like it, then don't read my post :o

[FTA2R]

Hi All,

sometimes I feel as if this site reeks of a negative vibe, even though it's clearly the most popular and well organized hardbooter site. can we just stop this , please, as I believe Fin requested earlier. I feel this way re: this thread.

I wish I never responded to this thread b/c I keep getting email and each email seems to be closer to making this another war. I have no problem with anyone.

can we all just relax a little and stop negatively critisizing other people and their articles, opinions, skills, comments, or whatever else can be critisized. I don't know if any anti Bordy comments are b/c he has stirred the pot here before, but if they are, who the hell cares. just let it go. as was stated during the CMC debacle, this is no way to attract new riders. can we funnel all of this "energy" toward attracting new riders and/or educating people about alpine.

---

Barry

[tilledog]

Billy reviewed the Swoard. We posted it. He has tried to answer all questions in a civilized manner. It's just His opinion. That's all. If you want to get Personal with Billy though, take it up with him with an email, not on Bomber. ( he loves to type )

Thanks,

Davo

[lonerider]

Thank you for taking a lot of time out to answer my questions. To start off yes I mainly just perplexed by how much different your viewpoint is compared to other people's reviews - I know two people locally who own the board an like it and most of the reviews on BOL seem very positive. The main thing is that I'm just curious (and bored with snow here).

I admit that could be a little bit of "forced love" due to the high price of that board, I find it surprising that your review of it would be so negative so as be almost contemptuous of all Swoard owners in their judgement and ability level. All of this based on four runs on the board, no these maybe big mountain Utah runs instead of short tiny Tahoe local mountain runs... but despite your unquestioned ability and experience - I am just a tiny bit skeptical because of it. I apologize if my questioning style seems more like an inquistion... I just am very curious.

Originally posted by Bordy

Lone rider has several questions so I’ll try me best to answer find its “sweet spot’ on my own and I believe I tried my best and did so in the length of time I rode the Board.

I do not question you ability and your intent to try to figure out the board. I just wonder if you had ridden the board a bit more than the four runs you did would let you discover the "sweet spot" of balance on the board. I understand you feel that is not so and I accept it, it's just I'm having trouble putting myself in your perspective because of the wide gap in ability and experience.

I shall "try" to keep my questions limited so as not to waste too much of your time. Thank again so very much for giving well-thought out honest answers (and please ignore anyone trying to bait you into a shouting match).

I have been following and discussing the EC style for some time I am familiar with the EC site and have seen the video “Opus”. The day I rode the Swoard It preformed as a wrote in the review. Also if the Nose of the board is flapping wildly under the skilled feet of the EC founders then how can it be a true carve? And why is it so hard to understand it did the same under my feet?

I'm not saying that I have trouble believing the board under your feet wasn't flapping or that you weren't able to prevent the board from washing out. I am saying I have trouble believing you when you imply that "no one" would be able to use the board and make a high speed turn without having it wash out.

So I went back to the video to review (since I had seen it months ago). So in Opus2 (ExtremeDreamer) you get some noticeble nose "flapping" as I describe it at around 2:02, 2:45 and 4:24, yet the riders in the video seem to be able to ride through the bumpiness and pull out of their body-dragging slide without washing out. And they look like they are going decently fast... admitted on wide perfectly groomed slopes... maybe that's was your problem as the warm soft snow is too sloppy for eurocarving? Maybe I'm reaching... but I just trying to find the missing link between what I see on the Opus2 video and your experiences on the four runs you took on the Swoard why you very "final" judgement of the Swoard. In which you didn't really make many allowances for possible learning curve issues or poor slope conditions (I know the snow didn't sound bad at all... but who knows)

I am really about a stance and form that starts the turn with the nose, and finishes at the tail. I am happy to do what ever it takes in the middle, to make the turn happen with as much control and edge grip as possible. I think the differences between my experiences and the hardcore ECers may be my lack of time on a EC specific board like the swoard and since this is the first product of its type I think its still a very fair review. I have however spent years adjusting many riding styles to board shapes and feel the adjustments needed to ride the swoard where well within my ability.

It's hard for me to tell, but it doesn't look like EC rider throw much weight on the nose of the board at all (Nils can you clarify?). It seems like they start the turn just in front of the bindings and roll back towards the tail quickly (based on Opus2 video). Does it look like that to you?

Again... I don't want this thread to become non-productive flame war. So I would like to thank you again for answering my questions despite my skeptical nature and not baited by those who disagree with your viewpoint, but don't seek to challenge your opinion in a diplomatic and mature way.

[Hugh]

Finally, a BOL topic worth reading and it was borrowed from another site :D

Rock on with the board review debate. Bordy comes back with a tight response to defend/support his points, nice job.

Conclusion: buy or borrow a Sword, ride it hard and review it. Please don't come in here with mind dribble Q&A, when you don't have ANY experience with the product.

How about hearing from the riders that love this board...

out