Great soft booter with big feet.

[chrisc]

Hello, some of you will remember me from the days of rec.skiing.snowboard.

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First off, this is not a troll attempt to inflame tensions between the soft boot and hard boot camps. I have a real problem and need advice. (Zelots need not apply)

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The executive version, my son has size 13 feet. Current equipment is Palmer Crown 162 with risers, Salomon Malamute’s, +15/-6 angles used in SL, GS, & BX.

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My son Michael is a pretty good all around boarder and likes to do it all, rails, jumps, trees, boarder cross, and has never seen a slope he would not go down (but plenty where I would not follow). At the USASA Nationals, he came up weak in the Pipe and Freestyle and was looking to make up some points in the Slalom and Giant Slalom. He did Ok in the Slalom (upper mid pack) but was washing out starting around gates 4 or 5. I should have taken that as a danger sign. Next day in GS, it looked like he totally blew through gate 3. Next race he washed out in gate 5. He was pretty devastated. I had film on the second race so I went and analyzed it to see what he was doing wrong. Well, he has a toe over hang issue. When he is really trenching in, his big feet are kicking him out of his line.

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Now what to do….

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Options seem to be:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)<!--[endif]-->Use existing equipment but change both angles to something way forward.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->2)<!--[endif]-->Have a custom wide racing softboot board made for him (Donek, Madd, Kessler?)

<!--[if !supportLists]-->3)<!--[endif]-->Go with a hardboot racing set up

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All have pluses and minuses. Moving angles forward is going to take retraining and mean possible failure this year. Other options are going to take lots of money, and could also mean failure….uhggg

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Idea’s?<o></o>

[BlueB]

I'm not a coach or a racer, but... How many serious SL/GS racers you see on the soft boots?

Moving the angles forward on soft boots would be almost as awkward as stepping into the hard boots, but with inferior results. So, he might as well go full monthy and get the right gear for the gates. He'll need SL and GS specific boards, too.

[chrisc]

A good point. By the same token, how many SL or GS racers are competitively cross disciplined? Younger (18 and younger) soft booter’s are making it to the podium in SL and GS. I do not know how many SL and SS are also competing in BX, SS and HP.

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Believe me I am not dismissing what you are saying, it has come to mind.<O:p</O:p

So it looks like simply changing his angles on the existing equipment is out. <O:p</O:p

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Staying with soft boots and moving to a wider board will hamper his edge to edge time. Moving to hard boots is a training issue (ie can he train in less than a season and come out better than just moving to a wider board)

<O:p</O:pThanks for the reply<O:p</O:p

[ShortcutToMoncton]

A good point. By the same token, how many SL or GS racers are competitively cross disciplined? Younger (18 and younger) soft booter’s are making it to the podium in SL and GS. I do not know how many SL and SS are also competing in BX, SS and HP.

<o></o>Jasey Jay used to compete in both, but eventually gave up on BX; the reason I heard was that he felt he couldn't compete in both at the highest level, and thus decided to concentrate solely on racing.

Do you see Bode Miller doing mogul runs? No. There's a reason people specialize in highly competitive sports. In the 90s lots of people felt they could "do it all," and indeed they could in those days (hell I think I remember pics of Mark Fawcett riding pipe at the US Open back in the day, haha!).

Those days are over, IMO. And they're definitely over if you're trying to ride a soft boot setup on a SL/GS course.

Simply put, if he's committed to riding soft boots, and has size 13 feet, then he should probably just forget wasting his time trying to race and concentrate on BX/pipe.

Staying with soft boots and moving to a wider board will hamper his edge to edge time.

What's he using now, that he's getting only the occasional boot-out with size 13 boots at 15- and 6-degree angles? Are you talking the difference between 27cm and 29cm waist? The time difference at that point is minimal (I mean, in my opinion it's a lost cause in the first place, so going just a little wider won't matter much at that point).

I have size 9 feet with a 25cm waist BX board (with risers), and can boot out whenever I want riding 21/9 angles. I can do that by pulling the type of high-G carves that you'll have to pull when riding a race course.

Are you getting me here? You son's riding a BX setup on a race course. BX setups are made for ride stability and banked turns. It's a totally different type of situation.

Moving to hard boots is a training issue (ie can he train in less than a season and come out better than just moving to a wider board)

If he's never been on hard boots before? I'm guessing not, unless he's an unusually quick study and you have a good coach who can tell him exactly what to do.

On the other hand, he will be able to eliminate the boot-out problem. At this point, he can't even run through the course....

greg

[chrisc]

Great info.

In USASA there is a all around competition and he is fast, so he will race.

He is beating ¾ of the hard boot field in at nationals.

¾ of the SL this year and ¾ in GS last year.

Given your advice, I feel rather sorry for those guys.

Your point is well taken. He has never been on hard boots before. Although he is a quick study coaching will be/is a issue.

Wider board it is, Now to evaluate a manufactures.

Thanks!

[BlueB]

I would say, if you went wider board, he still should learn to ride SLIGHT forward angles. It is beneficial for directional riding (BX, gates). Look through the stats of top BX racers, most have forward stances... Now we are talking just slight forward, as oposed to 45ish that he would need on 25 waisted board, so the retraining should go relatively easy.

From the otehr point, the biggest question is what you are trying to achieve in the long run? If he just wanted to flip-flop a bit in all disciplines having fun, spending as little money as possible, then yes, one wider board to do it all... However, if the kid was as tallented and fast as you said, he would eventually want to compete on higher level, or at least podium more often. The only answer is to have the right gear for the disciplines. Wouldn't you hate to see him dissadvantaged by inferrior gear? There would always be that question "what if I just had the right tools?"... Yes, he might even be slower (or finish less often) in the beggining, on the hard boots. But, in the long run, that is the only right way to go.

On the side note, I still heel boot out under 30deg front, with my tiny 8.5 boots, with risers, on 25.8 wide board, when I want to carve it like on alpine. I can easilly see a 29 wide board in the works for 13 boot... From his 25 wide Palmer to a new 29er, it's quite a difference...

[chrisc]

And boy, there is the rub.

On the equipment end, a Kessler was in the picture, but I realized that would do nothing for his overhang issue. I am wiling to invest in his future. Maybe not the hundreds of thousands that our local Dances with the Stars/ Olympic contenders Dad did..:-)

My son turns 18 this year so the College investment is in there as well.

Trying to find balance and direction!

If I purchase a hard boot set up, the only good coaching would not be around these parts. There is an avid hardboot collection of people 3 hours north of here. He competes with them and ends up on the podium plenty.

Great fun set of people, they just are not from around here.

[Corey]

What does he want to do? It's kind of cool to be doing that well on soft boots vs. hardbooters.

I like hardboots and all, but to the average snowboarder they are strongly looked down upon. On this site you'll get a bias towards hard boots. On most other sites you'll get a bias towards soft boots.

I think of a hard boot setup like a road racing motorcycle and a soft boot setup like a dirt bike. You can definitely compete in a road race with a dirt bike and you may even beat some of the roadies, but to win at the top level you'll want a road bike.

Disclaimer: I'm not a coach and have competed in only one GS race; 15 years ago on soft boots.

[chrisc]

He likes to go fast, and he loves trees.

The only bias you will hear from me is whether it works or not. Other than that, I really don’t care. On the average, the hard booters here are way faster than the soft booters. But there are couple exceptions, and exceptions can carve up a storm in softies. (Got this great photo of Doug Radefeld almost horizontal with his shoulder all the way into the gate)

Sort of brings us back to a mid-level hard boot setup or a fast wide soft boot board…..

[inkaholic]

Ok, so he likes to go fast and ride trees. Does he even care about competing to be competitive or is it just for the fun and camaraderie of it?

If it is for fun let him ride softies and get a wider board.

If he is doing the gs/sl thing for points toward the overall then he will be fine with softies, just go wider. Don't worry about the delay of edge to edge transfer, he will get used to it and it will be a non issue. If he really wants to excel in racing than GS & SL boards will be required

I coached current halfpipers Claire and Dylan Bidez back when they were groms and now they are US Team members. They never rode HB but learned how to use their edges effectively and efficiently. These two rode all disciplines until deciding on the freestyle side of things.

(Got this great photo of Doug Radefeld almost horizontal with his shoulder all the way into the gate)

Doug and brother Mark Radefeld are incredible rider on softies and former Team Sims riders out of Brandywine. One of them was involved with running USASA Ohio in recent years but I don't know if they are still involved or not.

At my last USASA national as a competitor Mark KICKED my a$$ in the Open class SL taking the win with softies. He knows how to carve and knew the fastest line through the gates. I blew it by over turning several of the gates to take myself out of first. If you can get some words of advice from either Radefeld I strongly suggest you do so. I have known them for a long time and can vouch for their abilities. Another you may run into is Ray Pesho. Ray will share more about the HB side with you than Mark or Doug(neither have been on HB to my knowledge) Ray also posts here on BOL.

Ink

[chrisc]

Thanks, that is a great idea (and boy do I feel stupid) I will talk to Doug. Doug placed #2 Overall, #1 in Half pipe and #2 in Slope Style this year at Nationals (USASA). You can see some photo’s of him at boardohio.com in the picture section. It is easy to spot him in the videos as well, he’s the one spinning 9’s and doing anything in the pipe.

Thanks again everyone!

[philfell]

Keep in mind that PGS, SBX, and freestyle events require different set ups.

At the low levels the differance in set ups sometimes are simply a change in stance.

At the highest levels it's totally different equipment.

Remember there is not a once size fits all when it comes to competition.

Most boards are made for riders with a foot size of 10 or under. With the size of foot your kid has, he will more than likely require a custom made board.

I'd first try to change up his stance a bit. Many of our SBX riders run 24/9, very few SBXers ride with a duck stance. Start with a stance change, then look into getting a custom built board that is wider.

[philfell]

I also echo much of what Ink said.

If your son is competiting in PGS and PSL for fun there is no need to push him into hardboots, unless he wants to try it out.

If he wants to win at PGS and PSL then he will need to get on hard boots at some point. The fastest softbooter can't even come close to a mid-pack hard boot racer.

Real life example.....Bobby Minghini US B Team SBX athlete, X-Games competitor, finished 8th in the Sunday River World Cup SBX. We had him and some of our other SBX riders race the Copper Race to the Cup last season. He finished pretty far back after having a solid run. Many of the Jr. riders beat him.

As far as wide boards being slow edge to edge......Well that's a hell of a lot better then booting out all the time. Plus one of the most common problems for novice racers is setting the edge too early then having to back off the pressure, most call this double turning. I don't see much of an issue with a board that slows down a transition, when most are double turning anyways.

[Wisconsin Lover]

Just to give you my 2 cents being a boardercross racer who is getting into more HP and SS. Hard boot set ups are good for racing, but like you said...it's expensive. My suggestion is this:

2 boards, 1 boot, 1 binding. 1 board for SBX, SL & GS and then another for HP & SS. As for boots, go with a Salomon F boot like the F22. It's stiff enough for racing but yet you can loosen the laces up for freestyle. I have had the Malamutes in the past, but they are bit heavy. The F boots are lighter. A good binding would be the C60 from Burton and you can always find a great deal on last years models online. The Union Force MC is also a good binding. Super stiff and super lightweight.

As for the boards, for the race board you will have to go with something around 26 to 27 cm waist. There is now way around it. I have sz 13 boots as well and it is just the fact of the matter. I carve very aggressively so I even use palmer 10mm riser plates. It is rare when I boot out. I remember back in 2005 USASA nationals I beat out a ton of hardbooters racing in softies and a stiff freeride board in Open GS. I finished 10th. As for being slow edge to edge, just get your kid in some weight training and he will be able to throw it around with the best of them. You can find really good boards these days for racing. For something lesser priced, Never Summer Titan TX, Nitro Pantera Wide, Burton T6 164 wide, Nidecker Platinum XL. These you can find a good year end deal. However, none of them really have a "race base" or "racing flex" per say. All are fast bases, stiff boards, and fast but none are SUPER fast for racing. If you have a few extras to spend, look at the F2 Eliminator wides, SG Cross Pro Team or the Apex Pro +165. All are 26+ waste width and super fast BX specific boards.

For freestyle boards, I have been riding Ride boards for years and never broke one yet. All you really need is something wide enough and soft enough for jibbing and jumps. It will also work for pipe.

I hope this helps!

[chrisc]

Thanks for everything guys.

For SS he rides a Salomon Prospect with Nitro Raiden bindings, owns a Donek Phoenix as well. He will not ride the Phoenix because he he worried that he might scratch it up. If only I could get him to feel the same way about our cars.

BX, he rides a Palmer Crown with Ride Tomcats bindings mounted on risers.

He wants to try out hardboots, so I am shopping around. No one in SnowOhio has responded, they must be busy so I am going about my research myself. Figure I will put him on a SL board first, then pick up a GS board if he does well with that. Found some UNZ racing boots that look reasonable.

The whole Mondo measurement is enough to drive me nuts. His Malamutes are Mondo 30. Just measured his foot with a rule and came up with 28.5cm, which is Mondo Point 29.5, which is supposed to be size US 11.5. Yet he measures size 13US in shoe stores. Uhggg….

I may be in Chicago Thanksgiving. Any ideas where to go to board in the general area?

[Dave ESPI]

given my race past and multiple event experiences, I would only offer this:

If he is beating 3/4 of the competition, then he should rock out a pair of hardboots and rip the top remaining 1/4 off the podium.

If he is set on riding softboots, and wants to go fast and be awesome, he needs an agressive stance. try around 38 front and 25 rear foot facing only one direction. It is a completely different ride, and will take some getting used to, but once there, its unlike any other softbooter on the mountain.

[BlueB]

Figure I will put him on a SL board first, then pick up a GS board if he does well with that.

That's reasonable: It is probably easier to run GS on SL board then the other way around... However, it is also possible to run the Palmer with hard boots for SL and have the propper board for GS - just a thought...

The whole Mondo measurement is enough to drive me nuts. His Malamutes are Mondo 30. Just measured his foot with a rule and came up with 28.5cm, which is Mondo Point 29.5, which is supposed to be size US 11.5. Yet he measures size 13US in shoe stores. Uhggg….

Hang on! If he measured up 28.5cm he is Mondo 28.5, period. Many people go 1/2 or full size down, but please not up, not for hard boots! Disregard the US, or any other sizing system - they just don't work. Only Mondo.

Buying too big of the boot will result in poor performance or even injury. Remember that liners would pack a lot and are mostly moldable.

[bobdea]

given my race past and multiple event experiences, I would only offer this:

If he is beating 3/4 of the competition, then he should rock out a pair of hardboots and rip the top remaining 1/4 off the podium.

If he is set on riding softboots, and wants to go fast and be awesome, he needs an agressive stance. try around 38 front and 25 rear foot facing only one direction. It is a completely different ride, and will take some getting used to, but once there, its unlike any other softbooter on the mountain.

what the ****?

name a major athlete that rides a stance like that in the last 15 years.

I could go on and on but seriously, you just gave wacky info.

few people can make angles like that work, John Gilmour aside I can't thing of anyone that I have seen first hand.

[chrisc]

Ok, he is Modo 29.2, picked up some race UPZ's. Now to select the bindings and board. I know the soft boot board world fairly well, but am feeling a bit lost in the plate world. Is a NIDECKER SL RACE 162CM good for a 170lb rider? Since it transitions a little in the back, would it be Ok for BX as well?<O:p</O:p

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Thanks for the patience. <O:p</O:p

[bobdea]

Ok, he is Modo 29.2, picked up some race UPZ's. Now to select the bindings and board. I know the soft boot board world fairly well, but am feeling a bit lost in the plate world. Is a NIDECKER SL RACE 162CM good for a 170lb rider? Since it transitions a little in the back, would it be Ok for BX as well?<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Thanks for the patience. <O:p</O:p

how much do you want to spend? Anything decent starts at about $850 and goes up to $1500. I have seen kesslers sell used for 600ish here, even 800 for a used kessler from last year in good condition is not a bad deal.

I would get a modern race deck, SG and Kessler are the companies really dominating with others coming up, prior, donek and coiler are making modern race gear as well.

the most recent nideckers I have seen(year before last) are functional relics from the old era, maybe something has changed but I doubt it.

the nideckers were narrow too, bad for big feet.

if you want something good that's used get in contact with people who coach or race.

bordy who is on here can help, he and philfell are probably your best bets. and if you PM me I can get you some email addresses of some racers that I don't want to post on a open forum.

[Dave ESPI]

what the ****?

name a major athlete that rides a stance like that in the last 15 years.

I could go on and on but seriously, you just gave wacky info.

few people can make angles like that work, John Gilmour aside I can't thing of anyone that I have seen first hand.

SHAUN PALMER for starters.....

but anyway......

Obviously you need to find time to ride on a mountain in softboots with me for a few runs and put our subtle "pissing match" that comes up in a few threads due to a difference in methods and styles to rest.

OTHER ADVICE: Just try a lot of different angles and set ups untill you find what works and is comforable with the best power transfer and technique that suits your ability, agility, and ride style.

As to the nidecker, The PROTOS is the only one Ive been on and was comfortable with angles at around 50 degrees as most are indeed on the narrow side of the general board designs. A 162 is going to be a bit on the short end for a race board. I have been on a few different lengths, and found 167 to 171 to be the ideal size. As to dampness, I have no idea how "Strong" of a rider the OP is, so I would not make any recommendations as to which board would be best, but can just say to grab some boards and go out and ride till you find something U like and stick with it.

also, Try HEAD STRATOS PRO hardboots. they run large and are very comfortable ( I wear a mondo 32, size 12+ USA).

[bobdea]

can you verify the palmer stats?

old picture but this looks like it contradicts what you were saying even in a time when high softy angles were common

not saying you're straight lying but I would be surprised to see the guy's actual stats being 38-25

kinda would be like seeing a PGS racer running a 17 inch stance width in modern times, could happen but it's a extreme minority.

You need to get away from jiminey peak and be exposed to actual competitive riders that actually compete in comps other than nastar. last year I did not get out much but I was living in mammoth lakes a couple years ago and riding with some honest to goodness industry names now and again. most of them were riding duck or damn close to it. . I hate riding duck, I ride both feet forward too 24-12 with a narrowish 21 inch stance, but face it, we are the minority for a reason.

BTW, lol, you ride a 1990s era budwiser board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

there were about 30 of those things in the dumpster at wachusset last year, you missed out.

the fact that you still pimp what's not that different from a rossi rental of the same vintage speaks volumes about you..

[DiveBomber]

Ok, he is Modo 29.2, picked up some race UPZ's. Now to select the bindings and board. I know the soft boot board world fairly well, but am feeling a bit lost in the plate world. Is a NIDECKER SL RACE 162CM good for a 170lb rider? Since it transitions a little in the back, would it be Ok for BX as well?<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Thanks for the patience. <O:p</O:p

You gotta get a board with rounded tails unless you are riding Pro, I found out the hard way! had a board that has rounded corners, but they werent big enough, has to be atleast as big as a tennis ball.

[philfell]

Pass on the Nidecker for what you want to do with it. You will NOT be able to compete SBX on it at USASA events, FIS would be OK though. But I would suggest you NOT run any SBX on a race focused board, it's just asking for injury.

The only people who run SBX in hardboots are those who grew up riding hardboots and don't feel comfortable racing SBX in soft boots because they do not have the milage in softies. Your son already knows how to ride softies so don't make him race SBX in hardboots.

For your son look for a board with at least a 20cm waist width 20.5 would be even better.

Dave glad you edited out your comment about Palmers stance...As someone who helped prep his board for the last World Cup in South America I can say that he does not ride a stance like you suggested. He is one of the best softboot carvers out there, but in a legit PGS race against legit PGS races he would get his but kicked, same with anyone on the US SBX Team if they were to ride their SBX set up. Graham and Hale could get on a hard boot set up and be competitive with little effort on thier part though.

[Dave ESPI]

Bob, I have a myriad of boards. There is nothing wrong with riding a minty fresh 1998 Rossignol (Butaine) board. Ive ridden complete garbage boards and top of the line ones and a lot in-between. It is a board that I personaly am very comfortable on. I have 3 actualy, 152, 154, 163. my very first board was the 152 and I put a lot of good seasons on it and utelized it for teaching on the bunny slope as a "beater" and retired it last year. At best guess it had around 10,000 miles on it. Not many people can say they have boards that last that long, and taken the abuse that this 152 had been thru. sure its a noodle, and no where near pefect, but I did a lot of early years learning on it, and even racing with it, and it worked just fine.

Bob, the fact that you say this board speaks volumes as to my preferance for board as a daily rider is condescending and reeks of you having an eletist superiority complex.

Arnold Palmer ( no relation ) a pro golfer once played a pick-up game with only a stick and a crushed beer can taped to it, and was 2 under par for the course. I'm sure TITLEIST was not knocking him for his choice of gear.

Try signing off the computer and getting more time on the snow this year... the fact is, I never claimed to be "the greatest athlete in the world".... I just said "I like to ride... and if its snowin' I'm goin'".

Phil, I was not saying he rode exactly 38-25 but just that he had an agressive stance in his early years. I ride those angles because it is what is comfortable for me, and what works with how I ride. I was boarding at Mt. Snow and saw him in xgame pre-trials and his stance was one that influenced mine greatly back in 2000-2001. Thats all I was saying. We all ride different anles and stances depending on our conditions and events. I had some pics from "shreddin!" magazine from a few years ago, and from a powder photoshoot, there is a lot of riders with the front foot turned way up in angle, and the back slightly agressive. One pic was of him also, and perhaps was my referance point for afore mentioned comment.

Of all my boards, only 3 have the same set up of ride angles usualy around 38/28 or 35/30 & 38/25. I also have ducked out 23/-23 boards, and have ridden 15/0 on boards as well. With alpine, there is always great debate as to "best". one thing that is agreed upon, is to go with the lowest angles that allow you to ride with your heelcup and toes over the sweet spot of the edge as close as possible without any drag or boot-out.

In my case having large feet, sometimes, that angle is 67 degrees....