Boot buying advice

[BadBrad]

With the spring sale going on, I'm tempted to buy some new hardboots. I currently have Burton Winds that are probably close to 10 years old, but still work okay. I upgraded the liners to ZipFits last year, and they feel great, but the boot/liner combo is a little stiffer than I would prefer.

I don't see many carvers using the Deeluxe 225T boot. Is this not a good boot for some reason? I'm 160 lbs and like a fairly soft flexing boot. Would the 225T work well for me?

As far as sizing, my current boots and liners are 26.5 and fit well. I read that the Deeluxes tend to run large. My foot measures 26.0. Should I order the size 25?

Thanks,

Brad B.

[Loc]

Hope I'm not hijacking, but I'd like to throw in another question that's related to the 225. I've got the Deeluxe Le Mans and from glancing at the new 225/325 boots, I don't see a big difference besides the buckles and a paint job. Is this right? If so it doesn't seem like it's worth the "upgrade."

[Surf Quebec]

I'm 160 pounds also and I loved my HDP with the BTS blue springs.

Theses boots are more thight and snuggy than my previous boots (AF600, Track700) and with the BTS there is enough flex.

[Surf Quebec]

I meant HSP not HDP

[BadBrad]

I've read here that the Head Stratus Pro is very stiff. There are discussions about people modifying them to soften the flex. So I'm afraid that I'd find them too stiff.

[queequeg]

I've read here that the Head Stratus Pro is very stiff. There are discussions about people modifying them to soften the flex. So I'm afraid that I'd find them too stiff.

Modded HSP's can be made to be *quite* soft, I wouldn't worry too much.

[RideGuy]

Modded HSP's can be made to be *quite* soft, I wouldn't worry too much.

How do you soften them? With a BTS or do you cut pieces out of the shell?

[queequeg]

How do you soften them? With a BTS or do you cut pieces out of the shell?

Well, both. If you cut the shell and don't use something like a BTS, you're going to end up with something that feels pretty crappy IMO. Cutting the shell in the rear permits the boot hinge to turn unimpeded, thus softening the boot. However, you'd be doing a pretty half-assed job if you didn't also replace the stock lean mechanism. The stock mechamism has very little travel built in - so if you were to cut the shells and not replace that lean mechanism, you would probably end up with a somewhat softer feeling boot, but most of the flex in the boot would end up coming from the shell plastic buckling (deforming) rather than the hinge traveling. Aside from the ability to adjust the relative stiffness of a boot, the other main benefit of the BTS is that it prevents the boot from buckling - flex tension is provided by the spring alone, rather than the shell plastic. The plastic wingsin the HSP don't affect the stiffness of the first 10 degrees of travel much at all, but they have a big influence on the ability of the boot to flex beyond a particular point ... so if you like to really suck up the board beneath you in your transitions, or have a very compact carving style they can be an issue.

So really, you probably want to do both. If you really want a stiff boot, you might add the BTS and not cut the boot but I think that still leaves you in a less than desirable situation because the way the wings in the back of the boot work, they will provide resistance as you bear down on the cuff, but once the cuff is down they will not provide much support, since a lot of the resistance they offer comes from friction (the wings rubbing against/pressing against the rear of the cuff), rather than spring compression which provides much smoother progressive resistance.

As an aside: Bobdea has disagreed with me in the past that HSP is a stiff boot. I'd say it's stiff because you can't soften it up all that significantly (stock) and because the type of resistance you get out of the wing mechanism in the rear is really sticky feeling due to the way it rubs against the inner cuff, and not smooth like a spring. On the other hand, the plastic though stiff, is not as stiff as that on the AF700/Indy, so if you crank down a pair of HSP's as stiff as they go it will not go as stiff as a pair of Indy's with say, the 5 position lean mechanism or a cranked down RAB. But a friend of mine (a beginner actually) has a pair of AF700's with the BTS and yellow springs and the result is way more flexible than the uncut HSP will get, due largely to resistance wings in the back of the boot. It's probably somewhat a matter of perspective.

Personally, the BTS makes more sense to me on a stiffer boot, because as long as the hinge mechanism is fairly free floating, you will be able to make a stiff boot soft AND stiff, but you can never really make a soft boot stiff, because the plastic will start to buckle once the spring tension overpowers it.

[RideGuy]

Thanks for taking the time to respond queequeg.

So basically, if I'm after a soft boot, I should start with a soft boot. :)

I'm 155lbs and allot of the time I like the feel of my Burton Fire's in walk mode better than when they are locked down. I'm thinking the 225T might be a good boot for me. Like the OP said though, I never see anyone using these. Is it just too soft?

[queequeg]

Thanks for taking the time to respond queequeg.

So basically, if I'm after a soft boot, I should start with a soft boot. :)

I'm 155lbs and allot of the time I like the feel of my Burton Fire's in walk mode better than when they are locked down. I'm thinking the 225T might be a good boot for me. Like the OP said though, I never see anyone using these. Is it just too soft?

I totally mistyped that last sentence of my last post, completely changing the intended message (correct) - no, I do not recommend a soft boot. I recommend a stiff boot with a BTS and yellow springs (the softest springs), because you end up with something much more versatile that way. This will yeild a boot that is laterally stiff, but very flexible fore and aft.

My personal feeling is: if you're going to go ahead and get a BTS (and I would because they're the BTS is awesome) - go with a stiff boot. You can make a stiff boot soft (fore/aft, but not laterally) with a BTS. However, if you go with a soft boot that has soft plastic you will never be able to stiffen that boot up much if you decide that you want more support later on, even with a BTS - because if the plastic is soft it doesn't matter how stiff a spring you put in the BTS - the plastic will fold.

Of course, if you want a boot that has more lateral flex for less aggressive carving and greater versatility in the trees/bumps etc ... in that situation you'd probably be better off with softer boot.

Not sure if everyone will agree with me on that, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

Does that help?

[Loc]

My personal feeling is: if you're going to go ahead and get a BTS (and I would because they're the BTS is awesome) - go with a stiff boot. You can make a stiff boot soft (fore/aft, but not laterally) with a BTS. However, if you go with a soft boot that has soft plastic you will never be able to stiffen that boot up much if you decide that you want more support later on, even with a BTS - because if the plastic is soft it doesn't matter how stiff a spring you put in the BTS - the plastic will fold.

Do you think the Track 700T is too stiff of a boot for someone in the 150-160lbs range, like the OP? That's with BTS yellow.

[Bobby Buggs]

For free carving Stiff boots are over rated. I rode Sb225s for years at 180 with no issues, Now on the Le mans with yellow springs and love um. Get them and enjoy the freedom

[queequeg]

Do you think the Track 700T is too stiff of a boot for someone in the 150-160lbs range, like the OP? That's with BTS yellow.

I've never ridden a pair of Track 700's so I really couldn't tell you for certain, but I doubt it. I'm sure there are plenty of people wearing them at that weight. A friend of mine is in AF700's with yellow springs and absolutely loves them, and I'm sure she weighs less than that.

[BadBrad]

Thanks for the info so far.

A few more questions:

1. Regarding fit, I have a fairly narrow foot with a very high arch and high instep. Which boot would fit me best?

2. Regarding sizing, if my foot measures 26.0, which size Deeluxe boot should I get?

(I see that the HSPs in size 26 are sold out, at least at Bomber they are.)

3. Would 225s work okay with the BTS, or is the shell too soft to allow the BTS to work well?

RideGuy, I too used to ride my Burton Winds in walk mode. I now use ride mode unless I'm riding bumps. I also used to loosen up the boot cant adjusters to allow more lateral flex, but I read that that is a bad idea so now I lock them down.

[Surf Quebec]

I ride Track700 last year and I'm 160 pounds, I did not find them too stiff, but I did put the BTS on them.

I switched to HSP boots because of heel lift. I have small heel/ankle and HSP are thigthter boots.

If your foot measure 26 then get a 25.5 or 25.

My foot measure 26.5 and my boot mondo point is 25.5.

The first weeks, I was not able to keep my boots more than an hour. Now they're perfect !

Trust me, I went from mondo 27 to 26 to 25.5 ...

Takes me time to understand...

[WinterGold]

I ride Track700 last year and I'm 160 pounds, I did not find them too stiff, but I did put the BTS on them.

I switched to HSP boots because of heel lift. I have small heel/ankle and HSP are thigthter boots.

If your foot measure 26 then get a 25.5 or 25.

My foot measure 26.5 and my boot mondo point is 25.5.

The first weeks, I was not able to keep my boots more than an hour. Now they're perfect !

Trust me, I went from mondo 27 to 26 to 25.5 ...

Takes me time to understand...

I have read about the downsizing now for several times. How can you go down a whole number? Do you use special liners? Or do you roll up your toes ...

[Loc]

See, I've got the opposite problem. My feet measure 24.5 so I downsized to mp24 boots and my toes are always hurting if I'm not riding. Waiting for the lift and sitting on it, walking around, etc my toes are seriously in pain. I know, if it works fine while riding why change it? But it's not just discomfort - during breaks I sometimes have to take my feet out of the boots because they are hurting that much. After a run I open up the buckles to loosen the toebox for the ride up. I'm thinking of upsizing to mp25 boots with this spring sale but I'm weary of trading one set of problems for another. Sigh, help.

[Michael Pukas]

See, I've got the opposite problem. My feet measure 24.5 so I downsized to mp24 boots and my toes are always hurting if I'm not riding. Waiting for the lift and sitting on it, walking around, etc my toes are seriously in pain. I know, if it works fine while riding why change it? But it's not just discomfort - during breaks I sometimes have to take my feet out of the boots because they are hurting that much. After a run I open up the buckles to loosen the toebox for the ride up. I'm thinking of upsizing to mp25 boots with this spring sale but I'm weary of trading one set of problems for another. Sigh, help.

I've had the same problem, and I up sized my boots - I should be in a 25 and am in a 26 - 700's. Now I still have smashed toes, plus heel lift, foot movement, instep bang, and overall foot pain. I thought upsizing the shell was a good idea, now I'm not sure... I'm considering downsizing again... there are more problems w/ a shell too big than too small

• heel lift
  
• instep bang
  
• excessive foot movement in the shell
  
• the shell not flexing w/ the foot
  
• toe bang - if the shell is too big and can't hold the heel down snuggly, it results in the foot sliding forward and smashed toes.

A good boot fitter can address all these issues w/ a shell too big, but they are all work-arounds - mainly with adding extra padding around the liner to take up additional space and hold the foot down and back. He can also work w/ a performance shell fit by grinding the shell to give you a little extra space where needed, and tweaking the liner to get the heel to stay back and down. W/ out a walk mode smushed toes when standing up is almost a by-product.

[Surf Quebec]

Wintergold,

While riding the track 700 with Deeluxe thermo liner, I did see a bootfitter but it was no use , I had heel lift on the rear foot anyway (mondo 26)

With the head boots 25.5, I 'm using the head thermo liner.

At the beginning the toes were real squeezed.

I removed the stock insole and replace it with an half insole (only for the heel).

This way the heel is at the good height and there is more room for the toes.

I did suffer at the beginning but the liner has packed and I'm OK now. If it is real cold, I'm having frozen toes faster than before but that's not often.

On the plus side I have way more control.

[valsam]

Could anyone help me too in finding my size in Deeluxe track 325?

I still wearing my cracked Burton wind's that are mondo 31 and fit perfect but there is nobody that sell's Delluxe boot's in my city and the only way is by ordering them fron the internet and is there anyone of you that went from Burton boots to Delluxe track 325 (with the regular lining not the thermofit!) and seen a diference in sizing ,did you stick with the same number or went half a size up or down?

[WinterGold]

Wintergold,

While riding the track 700 with Deeluxe thermo liner, I did see a bootfitter but it was no use , I had heel lift on the rear foot anyway (mondo 26)

With the head boots 25.5, I 'm using the head thermo liner.

At the beginning the toes were real squeezed.

I removed the stock insole and replace it with an half insole (only for the heel).

This way the heel is at the good height and there is more room for the toes.

I did suffer at the beginning but the liner has packed and I'm OK now. If it is real cold, I'm having frozen toes faster than before but that's not often.

On the plus side I have way more control.

Thank you, Surf Quebec! There are some good ideas in your answer. I guess I will continue to look for the perfect boot. For next year I´m looking at a UPZ RC10 and maybe I will go down from 27.0 to 26.5 (this would also be the smaller shell size which is always good ...)

[Michael Pukas]

Could anyone help me too in finding my size in Deeluxe track 325?

I still wearing my cracked Burton wind's that are mondo 31 and fit perfect but there is nobody that sell's Delluxe boot's in my city and the only way is by ordering them fron the internet and is there anyone of you that went from Burton boots to Delluxe track 325 (with the regular lining not the thermofit!) and seen a diference in sizing ,did you stick with the same number or went half a size up or down?

Start w/ Fin's page on boot sizing - measure your foot to get your mondo size and go f/ there. check the shell fit on your Burton's to see if that MP is a performance fit {1+ finger} or comfort fit {2+ fingers or more.}

Keep in mind that shell sizes are only available in whole sizes i.e. 30.0-30.5; 31.0-31.5, etc. Half sizes are done in the liner with either a lower or higher volume. It's most important to get the shell size correct.

I bought a pair of SB 325's in a 25.0 a few years ago - they were down sized f/ the previous Burton's I was wearing. they were supposedly the "proper" shell size for me w/ 1+ fingers behind the heel. that boot didn't work for me at all. I bought new 700's in a 26.0 this year, but they ended up being too big and had too many foot problems. So I just got a pair of 25.0, and am waiting to see how these go - I have high hopes for them! Good luck! mpp

[valsam]

Μy foot with a sock on measures 29,9cm and my burton wind's have written on the lower inside of the shell 30,5-31 and when i try it without the liner it has 1,5 finger space the liner says 31 but after wearing them for 3-4 hours my toes start to hurt a bit (do the liners shrink along the years?) i tried to replace the foot beds of the burton liners because they are really crappy with a pair from my Basketball shoes and the toes hurt more and instantly so in Burton this is definitely my mondo number!

So if i understand correctly from Fin's advice if my foot measures 29,9cm than i should have gone with the 29,5-30 shell,but my foot barely fits the 30,5-31 shell!

In my other boots the Oxygen Kryptons the shell number is 31-31,5 the liner has written on the back 30 and the foot beds have written on the bottom 31 (now that's pretty confusing!)and beside the liners being 30 they are more spacious than the Burton ones!

I guess the shell is bigger on the Oxygen's because the liners are really bulky!

So i have a 29,9 (lets make it a round 30!)foot and i found 2 pairs of 2006-2007 DEELUXE Track 325(new on sale 204 euros) with the regular liners not the thermos and 2 pairs of track 700 2007-2008(240 euros)

witch pair should i buy the 31 or the 31,5(and witch is better the 325 or the track 700)?

As i said online buying is my only option so your advice would help allot!

(Can anybody do a full laid carve without the board touching the snow?)

I can!

Just check out my avatar!

[Michael Pukas]

Hey Valsam! Any advice I give is just f/ my own experience, and my opinions may change at any unforseeable point depending on how my riding is going! :p

Here's what I think...

1. Measure your foot w/ a very thin sock or no sock at all. Many ways to do it - I suggest trying a couple to compare; take a ruler that has the end @ '0', put it against a wall and stand on it w/ your heel against the wall - measure to the longest toe; stand on a peice of paper and have someone trace the outline of you foot while standing upright and measure the outline on the paper; find someone w/ a mondo point measuring device.
   
2. Chances are you're foot may be just slightly smaller than what your'e measuring it to be. Be careful about rounding it up - that's (1) mm, and (1) mm can make a big difference. When I measure my foot w/ an imperial ruler, I can take 10 1/4" = 26.0mp or 10 3/16" = 25.9mp. When Fin measured my foot w/ his little measuring stick, it was under 26.0.
   
3. To properly do a shell fit, someone else has to put their hand in the boot behind you heel. Take the liner out, have on a very thin sock, put your foot in the boot with the longest toe just touching the front, and flex forward. Someone else needs to put their had in the boot behind your foot to verify the space - it's very difficult to do yourself w/ out your foot moving around and throwing off the measurement.
   
4. Boot companies size boots differntly - some break on the whole size {30.0-30.5} and some break on the half size {30.5-31.0}. Sounds like your Burton's are half size break and the 325's are whole size break. If you go w/ a 31.0 in the 325, that'll be a bigger shell.
   
5. Again, boot half sizes are going to be just in the liner. A 31.5 is still a 31.0 shell w/ a slightly higher volume/bigger liner.
   
6. If you foot measures 29.9 you're right on the cusp, like I am w/ my foot being a 25.9-26.0. I tried a 26.0 and was too big, so I went down to a 25.0. I think you're choice in shell size is either a 29.0 or a 30.0; a 31.0 is probably too big. As on Fin's boot fitting page, a 29.0 shell is for feet sized 29.0-29.9 and a 30.0 shell is for 30.0-30.9.
   
7. The boot fitter I just say yesterday told me he can work w/ a smaller shell size to make room, but he can't do anything w/ a shell size too big to take up room.
   
8. Stock liner vs thermo liner - I have found you can get away w/ a bigger shell size w/ a stock liner than w/ a thermo liner. Thermo liners are not as thick - lower volume. The fabric around the foam is very thin to allow for maximum contact of the foam w/ the outside of your foot and the inside of the shell. It's the foam that does all the work. Stock liners can be higher volume and have thicker fabric/material around the foam core, and are usually quite a bit stiffer. They're designed to fit everyone's foot - they may or may not fit yours. I find the stock liners in the 700's to be junk - won't even try to ride them, but I'm sure some people love them; I found the UPZ RC10 liners pretty good, and would give them a try if I had them. They're all differnt.

Here's an unanswered question that I've had for a while re: mondo point sizing and boots... what does the mp boot size really mean? Does it mean that's how long the the inside of the bottom of the boot is? Does the size of the boot have a tolerance/allowance built in? i.e. - does a mp30.0 (for foot size 30.0-30.9) have an extra 1mm and really measure a 31.1 to allow that person w/ a 30.9 to fit into it? Is there a standard - are all boots that are labeled a 30.0 the same length inside? Not to make things any more confusing than they need to be...

Now, do I dare risk giving you my opinion on which shell size to get? hmmmm... If you want a performance fit, get the 29.0. If you want a comfort fit, get the 30.0. If you plan on using a thermo liner, the 29.0 is probably best. If you plan on using the stock liner the 30.0 may be ok. Unfortunately, you're going to have to shell fit to really see what size is right, and I understand you're predicament ordering over the internets. Worst case is you buy one, shell fit it, and have to return it. One scenario is buy one, shell fit it, if you don't like it order another size while you're sending the first pair back for a credit. That's assuming you're buying f/ a dealer... if you're buying f/ an individual, or have no return options, then that's gonna be tough. :(

[BadBrad]

valsam, the Burton Winds appear to be sized differently than the Deeluxe boots. My foot measures 26.0. My Winds and liners are 26.5. With the stock liners they were a little to tight and my toes would hurt. I replaced the liners with 26.5 ZipFit liners and the fit is very good now.

Michael said his feet also measure 26.0, but a Deeluxe 26 was too big. So it would appear that a 26.5 Burton is about the same size as a 25.0 Deeluxe.

If your foot measures 30.0, then it sounds like you probably want a size 29 in a Deeluxe boot if you like a snug performance fit. If you like some extra room then a 30 will probably work.