Boot Bias & Toe side Problem Improved

[WEBSIGHT360]

Yes, I agree this thread should be stickied. I have gleaned a lot of info from this site over the years, but this thread has finally made my boards feel right. It's amazing that just a tiny adjustment can take your riding to a whole new level. Traversing is truly effortless, and now I can charge down choppy bumped up runs like I have never been able to before. Now, when I ride my boards, they just feel much more balanced, and the power and stability on my toeside carves have improved tremendously. This is on 21cm wide Coilers. With this change in my setup, I don't seem to have to throw my weight into making edge changes happen anymore, and my riding is much smoother and more fluid. I'm a very happy camper...

[barryj]

So Website - the way I read this is to move your front boot out of the neutral position, so that the center mark on the boot is behind and back towards the heel 1/4-1/2 inch behind center and move the rear boot towards the toe the same increment so it is forward of the center mark.

I'm running a Virus Avy AFT ALP which is about 23 wide and my angles are about 65 front/60 rear on old Oxygen 01 bindings - The maximum boot bias I can get with these bindings is about 1/4 of an inch.

[WEBSIGHT360]

So Website - the way I read this is to move your front boot out of the neutral position, so that the center mark on the boot is behind and back towards the heel 1/4-1/2 inch behind center and move the rear boot towards the toe the same increment so it is forward of the center mark.

I'm running a Virus Avy AFT ALP which is about 23 wide and my angles are about 65 front/60 rear on old Oxygen 01 bindings - The maximum boot bias I can get with these bindings is about 1/4 of an inch.

to barryJ - Yes, the front foot is to the rear of the neutral position visually. The heel of my front boot appears to extend slightly over the edge of the board when viewed from above. The rear boot is brought right up to the toe edge. Interestingly enough, the UPZ RC10 center line is even further back from the middle mark on the TD2's on the rear foot than it is on the front. The front foot now feels perfectly balanced despite the illusion that it is not when viewing it from above. The difference in the ride is dramatic for me.

Edited February 17, 2012 by WEBSIGHT360

[barryj]

So I adjusted my front boot 1/4 inch to the rear and the back boot 1/4 inch forward of center.

All I can say is: WOW! What a difference in ride...the toe holds much better and the rear rails like on a laser.....but I must of went to far on the heel side (Front Foot, correct?) adjustment because I couldn't transitation/release the heel side.....it put me to far over and all I could do is ride it out and bleed off speed and pray I don't take out a family of skittels!

So I adjusted the front foot back in about half of where I started and I had more heel side control/transition but toe side lost a little - it's just amazing the difference. So I assume I should pull the front foot back towards neutral - right?

Or am I missing something?

[WEBSIGHT360]

Here is the view from above my front foot:

Here is the view from above my back foot:

[barryj]

Well here's my adjustment - the first photo is the front and the second is the back. I'm offset about a 1/4 of an inch. The third is my board and shows my angles. Websight, I'm running steep angles on a wide, 26cm board, so I don't fit the norm I guess.

[barryj]

Here's my boot/angle setup

[John Gilmour]

I agree this should be stickied. I often forget the name of this thread and have to hunt for it. Probably should have named it "Gilmour Bias" in the first place.

Now "Gilmour Bias" is not a solution for riding a a board that is too wide for you. And Reverse Gilmour Bias is not a solution for riding board that is too narrow for you. Just like wearing thicker socks is not a solution for shoes that are too big- and wearing no socks is a solution for boots that are too small.

"Gilmour bias" just helps your hips work more efficiently by giving you more Range of Motion (ROM) for recovery and allowing muscle groups you use every day assist more in balance and in power.

I check this thread every so often.. it is a pretty old thread.

I really like when people post pics..I'll try to address pics I see. YMMV according to your riding technique.

Sadly some people ride such wacky set ups that they start changing everything they do - every movement pattern to accommodate a less than optimal set up thinking they are on the right path.

A common thing people say...on the drive back from the slopes (I personally rather have other people drive- after logging so many ski trip miles- it also means they are hopelessly trapped to have to hear the long winded thorough explanations) is ...after they get in the car and we start the drive back...

..........long silence.... like 10 minutes...after they are absorbing what they lerned and trying to remember it all.... figuring out what they accomplished.

Student: "So I've been doing this wrong for years?" (often several decades) "This has been the best day of riding I have ever had- finally I get it, and can really carve hard and confidently"

Me: "Well you have been oh so carefully refining the improper technique and stance for what you are trying to accomplish. That's not to say there is only one technique that works or one stance, there are so many styles of riding...but for what you were trying to do your set up wasn't optimal, and it warped your technique into something uniquely weird that took away your ability to really control your board properly."

Student: "Wow.... all those years.... wasted- all those lift ticket dollars wasted on the wrong technique"

Me: "It's sorta mind boggling isn't it? If you tally up all the cash in lift tickets, gasoline, hotel rooms, and everything else- just to end up plateauing at a lower level of riding... I spent years riding wrong because bindings back then (1983- 1986)) didn't allow for any bias adjustment at all."

(The first binding that did ....IIRC..., was the Avalanche plate binding (1984???) often seen ridden by Damian Saunders- that heavy crude metal plate binding had a long row of tightly spaced holes on each side that allowed the bails to be moved back and forth to allow for Gilmour bias...there may have been some other European binding that did this....but it was the first binding I found that made "Gilmour Bias" easy. The initial SIMS bindings on the SIMS FE (no metal edges) only had an arc of holes with the SIMS FE PRO with metal edges later having two arcs of holes to allow for a single bias choice that was too large to be useful- I think only perhaps 5-10 people on this site might remember this as snowboard historians)

Student: "All those years, and I could have been riding like this in a single day."

Me: Doesn't really matter...- you had fun every day you went snowboarding didn't you? It's not like you weren't having fun before. You just ride better now, and you are less likely to get hurt....and your ego will feel better.

Student: So now I am fixed right?

Me: (Depends on the student ) "Well your board is (fill in the blank) ________(too wide, too narrow, too soft to stiff, too long , too short, too advanced, too beginner, flex pattern is poorly designed, sidecut to flex inappropriate...etc..etc..etc... ) for your riding style which has evolved in part to fit your gear."

"Getting a _________ board would be better for the style of riding you are pursuing. (could be a Prior, Donek, Coiler, Kessler, Virus, Burton, Boarder cross deck, used Madd, Oxygen, F2, free ride deck, etc...) one that suits your height, weight, foot size, and riding style."

"Proper Gilmour Bias set up and the technique I taught you today just fits you better that what you WERE doing and the selections you made in regards to the gear you currently have. " (You gotta use what the student has ...and sometimes that means skewing a private lesson to fit gear that isn't optimized at all for the student...like a girl with a pink board that is too wide and long, or a guy with board with some killer graphic that is way too stiff with a stance that can't be made to fit. Or a guy that bought hard boots that are too stiff- or soft boots that are just worn out and too soft).

Student: So I need to buy all new stuff?

Me: "Not necesarily-... there is some good used stuff out there- you could probably trade for little money.... and you can also learn a variety of riding styles so you can adapt your style to compensate somewhat for gear that isn't suited for what you are doing- as you can see I rode a cracked powder board with an awful flex pattern and side cut that is too wide, with soft bindings that are busted, and old soft boots. I do this to prove a point... that once a rider has knowledge they can reduce the impact of improperly selected gear by adjustment and technique.

There is no reason you can't continue to advance in your ability with gear that isn't perfect...and no reason you can't learn to compensate to reduce the consequences of riding crap gear...(like I do to prove a point.) But without a shred of a doubt... properly chosen gear will improve your riding and you will learn more quickly just like a better fitted prosthetic leg would help a handicapped runner run faster with less discomfort.

You'll have more fun too.

I definitely sacrifice a great deal of my personal fun when I ride this powder board in anything BUT deep wide open powderfields... but people tend to think that they can't have fun if everything isn't perfect- they assume that I ride well if I am on a race board I designed for myself only... that it was made specifically for me and that is why I ride the way I do.

(I do advise people that if they can afford a custom deck... they should ALWAYS order it. A lot of people like riding a 158cm Madd even if it doesn't fit....and I cringed when I saw 6'6" 240b Todd Drechscher with his size 17 feet on one...so I had him order custom boards from other manufacturers who are geared to do this)

So now I ride anything..rental gear- their GF's board, powder boards. Anything to not discourage people about their gear (which about 90% of the time isn't right for them and has been hindering their learning) .

Just knowing you have the wrong gear is an excuse...and a poor one, for giving up on improving your riding...when confidence... makes a big difference.

Obviously...you see I am still having fun, and lots of fun and so even if you aren't on the latest gear perfectly set up for you...you. can still have fun. Getting good stuff is always a great idea if you can afford it and select it and set it up properly. And You will absolutely have more fun on a killer set up that suits you and your riding. I would NEVER recommend anyone to ride what I rode today- powder boards are certainly not for carving or really anything but powder...."

----

I try to get people at least,,,,, into a "ball park" of good fit and gear quality. If they want to spend $$$$ to make it absolutely right it is up to their wallet. The best gear doesn't make the best rider...knowledge is a far more critical part than the gear. Once you have that knowledge..everything is more fun anyhow.

The frustrating part for me teaching... is that often I only teach a person a few lessons...like 3 lessons..and they now ride MUCH better.... way way better.. but still could go so much farther if I could get past the ice riding technique and some of the other things. I would say most students- are happy with only 20% of what I could possibly teach them to be a better rider.

I do wonder how good a student could be if I got to pass everything along... never happened yet. They always seem to just want to fly with 20%...i.e.. good enough for them???I guess if they are having more fun that is all that matters.

I never get around to diving turns- upper body transitions... or any of that really fun stuff that is so much more fun and deeply soulfully satisfying that the boring stiff isolating stuff I teach in the beginning. Bu a soon as people don't feel a fear for speed anymore.... it's off to the races for them. So many coaches so little time...they think... but they should try to learn everything each coach has to teach....not just the fun stuff.

sigh..... hopefully someday....someone will go through it all...before I either turn 85 or get into something else entirely. I hate to see it not get passed on...

....so many days of "right-left"

(multiple ways to take this).

......

That "I've been doing it all wrong" comment I inevitably hear is always so awkward... but IF I DON'T HEAR IT... that is worse because it meant they did not learn enough.

Like a shot of Bacardi 151 rum...it starts out harsh...but ends up giving you a warm feeling inside.

Edited June 27, 2014 by John Gilmour

[John Gilmour]

Here is the view from above my front foot:

[ATTACH]29673[/ATTACH]

Here is the view from above my back foot:

[ATTACH]29674[/ATTACH]

Ok, too inbound on front toe...(but optimized to make up for your wide deck- you like your stance angles and don't want to give them up... so you are using "gilmour Bias" as a crutch to not have to replace your deck and run without the front toe inbound) .

Rear toe can overhang more.

If you like your angles show in the pic...

...board too wide... trade and replace with another Coiler. Bruce makes great boards.....and his boards have very high trade value post up to meet others with Coilers and swap around a bit. Bruce keeps all the specs and rides every single board he makes... he can figure out what board he made for you or what you bought. This is a HUGE advantage with Coiler as a manufacturer.

Or you have to turn down your angles to adapt to your board and use a riding technique that suits those angles better (not saying you will like flatter angles long term...but you might) . Also your boards flex pattern might be pushing you towards certain angles too. No idea about your weight or how you ride from just 2 pics.

You have this awesome forum... someone wants your board..and someone else has the board you want. Once you feel proper width and proper bias... buy a NEW BOARD in that width- WITH THE RIGHT FLEX PATTERN from Bruce V. and be better dialed in.

Buying new random gear swapping manufacturers willy nilly without being properly fitted is a very expensive and frustrating way to find the right width board.

Looks like you are running your front foot somewhere between 57 and 62 degrees don't get too hung up on angles... as angles change internally with boot changes and binding changes. As you have no bindings..I can't tell where your front heel is.

I do dial in people over video cams BTW.

Edited June 27, 2014 by John Gilmour

[John Gilmour]

Here's my boot/angle setup

[ATTACH]29681[/ATTACH][ATTACH]29682[/ATTACH][ATTACH]29683[/ATTACH]

Here's my boot/angle setup

[ATTACH]29681[/ATTACH][ATTACH]29682[/ATTACH][ATTACH]29683[/ATTACH]

Better pics, more pics with bindings...

Great board too. Frank makes killer decks. I loved a metal deck I rode of his years ago.

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?29624-wow-ultimate-dual-purpose-carving-board-Virus-183-UFC

Want to buy a board...right off the rack? Figuring out a custom deck too confusing... don't worry , Frank D. has it figured out.

My guess.. not knowing you..

You were possibly a good skier first (on older non super side cut skis) and like very high angles and bought a stiff high performance board for your current knowledge base of riding. Having higher angles combined with a stiff deck and knowledge of how to pre-load skis with stiffer boots makes this style of riding easier for you to adapt to because it is what you are familiar with...even if it is not optimal for you in the long run.

The oxygen bindings are really soft for a virus laterally...might want to try other bindings for comparison.. the play in the binding makes the steep angles more tolerable..for the knowledge you currently have. If you are some really strong guy with big quads you probably just power through this set up as is, but could ride a lot stronger if you were to dial down and learn a new technique.

The quick fix is buy a narrower board from Frank,... He has a lot to choose from.

If you like the wide board for powder versatility....and soft corn snow... get softer boots, slightly stiffer bindings, and ride flatter.

The amount you are inbound forces over commitment to toe side and raises your hip in a turn...both tricky and sorta dangerous if you need to change direction fast.

Personally if you showed up for a lesson with this ...I would skip seeing you ride first, and immediately fix your stance and retain your movements on dry land on carpet. You'd spend 20 minutes fixing your bindings and 20 minutes in the lodge on carpet first.

It's not that you can't ride well already, maybe you are one of the best on your hill currently (you would have to be able to compensate a TON to ride a binding set up like this- tons of fore and aft movement and board flexion if you were pushing a set up with this binding set up hard) .... but you could ride sooooo much better. Given the short board and stance width... if you use too much forward punch ...you will "pearl" (go over the nose in soft snow) .

Or you might be just gently carving....lower speeds only on good fresh groom hero snow.

Pretty sketchy set up... needs to be addressed. Just about as messed up as I ride my powder board...(haha) forces unnecessary over compensation... curious to see video of you riding.

[John Gilmour]

For years I rode an 18 cm waisted deck and biased the front binding towards toeside, back binding towards heelside - in order to keep my angles as low as possible.

Now I'm on wider decks, 19.5 to 21.5 and have some room to play. I set up my GS board with Gilmour Bias and went riding this morning, loved it. My right (rear) hip seizes up on me (not just snowboarding) often which makes good toesides very challenging. The more open hip position gave me more ROM in that hip and I was able to nail toesides without thinking about it. Woohoo!

All I did was shift from (front foot 1/4" more toeside than back), to the opposite - *back foot 1/4" more toeside than front.) Small change, big impact.

Thanks again!

a 6 year overdue "You're very welcome". I enjoy reading your posts.

[John Gilmour]

Great info JG and as I read thru it was something I have been fiddling with since getting TD2's. Boot bias did help a little with a problem I am having since switching to TD2 form TD1. Heelside undulating is driving me nuts and I cant solve. i sen this to Jack M. but he said it would be a little while before he could get back to me and I am trying to resolve my issue before heading to ECES. I hope you can help.

I recently got a set of TD2 SI's, use to ride TD1 SI's. 19.5" 70* front 67* back and mostly forward inserts on my POGO Blitz and neutral boot bias

I am on day 5 of trying different settings, from boot bias to cant to disc switch to insert placment and still with about 12 diff adjustments I have only had marginal improvement in my binding placement except today I was able to find a more comfortable centered relaxed position.

I am hoping you can offer any little experimenting you have done or heard.

the main thing I am experiencing is undulations in my heel side turns. the board feels as if it just wants to keep rolling over onto the toeside edge. My front boot bias is toward heel and rear towards toe. It is almost as if i can hear the board breath a sign of relief when I do prep for my toeside, which is carving well. When I was on my TD1's, it was "nuts to butt" turns with no trouble whatsoever. Solid turns in both directions.

After being pitched off a trail the other day due to the undulating and a bruised ego and cracked helmet, I'm begging for help. When I was on TD1 the board had smooth transition from heel to toe at any rate of speed. On the TD2, slow or fast, I get the heelside undulations.

Here is what I have tried so far in somewhat order

Disc placement mid, back and then forward. all the way forward seemed to calm it the most.

I boot bias front heel was over heeledge of board and rear boot bias forward so my toealigned with toe edge. That seemed to offer a more balanced stance and slightly less undulating.

I switch my discs from 6 front 3 back to 3 front 6 back, nothing major,except I needed to widen my stance which helped my balance and relaxed feel. I want to go back to 6* front 3 back, that is how I have ridden for years.

Please excuse my use of clock terminology. (90 like TD1)

I then turned the dot on the 3* front disc from 90 to 75 clockwise, thus lessening my inward cant, correct?

I also turned the dot on my 6*rear disc from 90 to 85 counterclockwise, thus increase my inward cant, correct?

These two steps also added to a sensation of the board feeling neutral, rather than it feeling like it wanted to pitch one way or the other. It wasnt favoring any edge as it had been.

But still i am getting undulations heel side that feel like I am crossing over a series of 2-3 " high ridges about 2-3 feet apart and the board is still slightly wanted to roll to toeside. Even though the slope was flat.

After taking a header off the trail, I packed it in for the day, but when I head back out, I was hopeing to have some things to try to minimize the number of times I have to 5 allen adjustments.

If you can offer any insight I hope to get this fixed before ECES.

Your info helped a great deal in a visionary sense and I intend to apply those.

Regards

Greg

rode Fin's Pogo Blitz..what a rocket ride of stiffness- how about pics...unless you sold it 1/2 a decade ago.

I love resurrecting ancient threads.

[lowrider]

You have to be willing to invest a lot of time once you open a "Gilmour" thread ! Now that I have done that i'm interested in your thoughts on whether or not the narrowest width of any board should necessarily be exactly half way between the front and rear insert sets ? Perhaps a second "Gilmour Bias" with respect to SCR. I have come to a personal conclusion that (isolation) plate mounting inserts should be more forward than presently are available (not the binding inserts) but i'm not expecting that to change any time soon in the commercial market.

[glenn]

rode Fin's Pogo Blitz..what a rocket ride of stiffness- how about pics...unless you sold it 1/2 a decade ago.

I love resurrecting ancient threads.

Hey John,

Happened upon this thread...Great info.!

Chubz gave up snowboarding maybe 4 years ago. Said he moved on to other things. Sorry to see him give up on it after becoming such a strong rider...

Just thought I'd let ya' know...

Glenn

[arneburner]

Thought I would start out the season with a little "Gilmour Bias". First up a 20 cm wide Kessler 162 sl with a 7-12M sidecut. Stance angles are 55 and 50 degrees. Front boot back about half an inch, back boot forward about half an inch. Impressions: noticed difference gliding off lift on front foot - more control. Heel side and toe side turns felt more solid. Easier to initiate and finish turns. Could really feel the back foot (toe) on the toe side and the front foot (heel) on the heel side turns. Quicker edge to edge. Think I will keep it this way. Thanks, John.

Edited November 15, 2014 by arneburner
correction

[arneburner]

Next test a 17cm wide Virus Tantalus II Evolution III with angles of 65 and 60 degrees on day 2. Same bias. Same results. Will keep it this way.

[Longboarder09]

Pardon me for my ignorance, but can someone explain exactly how to perform boot bias? Is it done by moving the binding itself, like shown in the picture (here I turned the center discs 90 degrees and offset the binding from center.). I have TD2s with 30 degree cant discs on each, with the thinner side towards the center and thicker side facing the tip/tail.

Or is it a matter of keeping the bindings centered and shifting the bail blocks forward or backward (both blocks were originally screwed into the center hole. This picture has the blocks in the most forward position and would be the rear binding. The front bindings would have both blocks screwed into the most rear set of holes) ?

Or is it something completely different that I'm missing?

Edited November 14, 2014 by Longboarder09

[piusthedrcarve]

is it a matter of keeping the bindings centered and shifting the bail blocks forward or backward (both blocks were originally screwed into the center hole. This picture has the blocks in the most forward position and would be the rear binding. The front bindings would have both blocks screwed into the most rear set of holes) ?

That's it. After than, you can micro-adjust from the top.

BTW, I had ridden with 'Gilmour Bias' stance for few years. Basically, it showed me how to press/decamber the center of the board effectively. Now, I am without any 'bias' (maybe little bit like 2 turns of F2 bail blocks or so)