Engaging the nose on a heel-side carve.

[photodad2001]

I'm trying to drag my backside, but I'm skidding out. Wanted to know if anyone had any tips for getting the edge to bite on heel-side.

[trikerdad]

When you're trying to get low on your heel side, it's easy to forget to drop your front knee toward the snow. I find a good exercise it to reach across with your trailing hand and push your front knee toward the snow.

[trailertrash]

put your trailing hand on your leading foots toes.

[Rob Stevens]

Trailertrash: That is a badass picture. Blacked out and low. Nice.

I might have one for you photodad...

Your title talked about getting the nose to engage, but I'm thinking (not sure) that it's your tail that's sliding out.

Many intermediate riders (is that you?) come up through time by pivoting over the front foot. When you switch to carving, if the weight is still there, you get slide. No pressure on the back half of the board, no hook-up.

You could try this the next time you're out:

Find yourself something you can lean against, like a tree or a wall. Have both feet in, in your normal aligned riding posture and lean against the wall in a comfortable, angulated position. Make sure it's not too far away... Maybe a foot and a half to two at the most. As you're leaned there, picture yourself at the point in the turn where you'd be sliding. In that moment, concentrate on a feeling of equal pressure on the heels of both feet. Push against them. Does the edge want to slide away? If not, and you can simulate this position in your turn, the board shouldn't slide there either.

All up, it's really about pressure control between the feet. Edge angle is good, but dialled riders can carve with barely any edge angle, so as long as you have a solid stance and balance and even pressure between the feet, you should be good.

Post a pic or 5 of you riding and the crew can hone you in a lot better. Also, you should read the articles in the archives on "The Norm" This is basic carving, but even if you're beyond this stage, the principles still hold true.

[photodad2001]

When you're trying to get low on your heel side, it's easy to forget to drop your front knee toward the snow. I find a good exercise it to reach across with your trailing hand and push your front knee toward the snow.

I should also mention I ride soft boots with a 45 degree front and 35 degree rear.

Should I begin to bring my back hand forward before I even begin the turn?

[photodad2001]

Trailertrash: That is a badass picture. Blacked out and low. Nice.

I might have one for you photodad...

Your title talked about getting the nose to engage, but I'm thinking (not sure) that it's your tail that's sliding out.

Many intermediate riders (is that you?) come up through time by pivoting over the front foot. When you switch to carving, if the weight is still there, you get slide. No pressure on the back half of the board, no hook-up.

You could try this the next time you're out:

Find yourself something you can lean against, like a tree or a wall. Have both feet in, in your normal aligned riding posture and lean against the wall in a comfortable, angulated position. Make sure it's not too far away... Maybe a foot and a half to two at the most. As you're leaned there, picture yourself at the point in the turn where you'd be sliding. In that moment, concentrate on a feeling of equal pressure on the heels of both feet. Push against them. Does the edge want to slide away? If not, and you can simulate this position in your turn, the board shouldn't slide there either.

All up, it's really about pressure control between the feet. Edge angle is good, but dialled riders can carve with barely any edge angle, so as long as you have a solid stance and balance and even pressure between the feet, you should be good.

Post a pic or 5 of you riding and the crew can hone you in a lot better. Also, you should read the articles in the archives on "The Norm" This is basic carving, but even if you're beyond this stage, the principles still hold true.

Yes, the tail is sliding out, it's at the beginning of the carve. When I carve toe side toe side I go directly into the carve and leave a nice skinny rut in the snow behind me. (by the way, the avatar I have is about 3 years old before I even got into alpine riding) Even on toe side it feels like my weight is forward, but that may just be the G's. On heal side I've been trying to reach toward the nose of my board, is that too far? I had one really nice heal side carve the last time I went out, (Brushed the snow with pants) but I was in a bit of shock and didn't get to really notice what exactly I had done to pull it off.

I've been riding with the narrowest stance my board offers, should I try moving the rear foot back?

I'll get pics as soon as I find someone willing to shoot. Getting the snow and photographer at the same time is the tricky part. I'll be going again this Saturday, maybe I'll get some up then.

[photodad2001]

put your trailing hand on your leading foots toes.

I've been reaching for the nose of my board, is that too far?

[trikerdad]

"I ride soft boots with 45 degree front and 35 degree rear"

Oooh, that's a whole different ball game. I know there are people who can ride at those angles but, when I went from carving in soft boots with 35 and 15 degree angles to steeper angles, I found 45 degrees to be a no man's land. With both soft and hard boots, I could neither heel and toe my turns or use my knees side to side. I had to make the leap from 35 and 15 in softies to at least 55 and 50 in hard boots.

And yes, I'd say your too far forward if your reaching for the nose, releasing the tail of the board.

[photodad2001]

"I ride soft boots with 45 degree front and 35 degree rear"

Oooh, that's a whole different ball game. I know there are people who can ride at those angles but, when I went from carving in soft boots with 35 and 15 degree angles to steeper angles, I found 45 degrees to be a no man's land. With both soft and hard boots, I could neither heel and toe my turns or use my knees side to side. I had to make the leap from 35 and 15 in softies to at least 55 and 50 in hard boots.

And yes, I'd say your too far forward if your reaching for the nose, releasing the tail of the board.

Should I flaten my angles? My board is too wide to go steeper. Haven't gotten around to making the financial plunge so I'm on my Sims 171 Search.

[David Glynn]

Photos would be most helpful! But I will make a couple of comments just in case they apply to your situation.

One very common reason for losing a heelside is getting the hips into the hill beyond the angle of the board. In other words you are no longer stacked over your edge. If this is the case try squaring your hips and shoulders up with the direction of the board's travel. This should pull your hips over the edge. And yes you can still drag a hip doing this but you may need to increase your edge angle.

Another frequent cause for losing a heelside is not enough pressure on the front of the board. If the front of the board's edge fails to engage then there is nothing for the rest of the edge to follow, resulting in a skid.

With your low angles this is less of a possibility. However as stance angles increase so do the chances of this being the issue. The average size of boot ridden in a 60 degree stance will put the rider about 4 to 5 inches further back on the board when on heelside compared to toeside, hence the need to be a little more on the front foot when initiating a heelside turn. Initiate up front then settle into the center ( both feet weighted equally)

P.S. I grew up surrounded by cornfields.

[terekhov]

rode successfully +45+30 in softies for lotta much years in any terrain. never been in no man's land though :)

[photodad2001]

you may need to increase your edge angle.

If I go steeper I'm going to be able to start to see board between my foot and the edge is that going to be an issue?

Should I try moving my stance forward? My board has a 25 set back and I currently have my front binding on the lowest set of holes while my back binding is down one set. Should I move them up a set?

[trikerdad]

Like I said, some people can ride those angles but, I couldn't. Photodad, just try some of the changes in body position and technique mentioned in the thread before you start on the hardware.

[JJFluff]

You don't neccesarily have to change your angles. I ride 5, -5 and can carve my soft board just fine. The key is to get your body working well just like trikerdad said. In time, you should be able to jump on any angle and get the board to carve, it just takes mileage. Don't be so quick to constantly change setups. Find something that feels ok, and then work on it. Getting your body in the right positions are the most important part to hold an edge. One thing though, on soft setups, you always need to be mindful of heel drag with lower angles. I have size ten boots, so my heel drag is minimal at near 0 angles but still present. But even with some drag the heel edge hooks up just fine. Make sure on the heelside that you are opening up your body into the turn. I try to teach this by making sure you are visually looking at the direction your body is traveling, not down the fall line. Try making a single heelside turn and actually end up pointing up hill. Make sure you feel yourself following the radius of the turn with your eyes as well. So you should be looking uphill when your finished. By doing this, it helps to keep your entire body inline, eliminating any old habits of counter-rotation. Which will always destroy the second half of any carved turn. So in review, look in the direction you are traveling, not downhill. This goes for heelside, or toeside.

[trailertrash]

Trailertrash: That is a badass picture. Blacked out and low. Nice.

Thanks, photo courtesy of Bob Jenney.

[inkaholic]

Yes, the tail is sliding out, it's at the beginning of the carve. QUOTE]

You have too much weight on the front foot if the tail is skidding out. Don't try to load the nose at the beginning of the turn, just roll the board on edge and it will hook up. Once in the carve remember to push your feet through the turn to keep the tail engaged.

See some of WilliamBlake's post about technique. He gives very good descriptions of darn near everything that needs to be done on healside and toeside carves.

Ink

[Rob Stevens]

You don't neccesarily have to change your angles. The key is to get your body working well . In time, you should be able to jump on any angle and get the board to carve, it just takes mileage. Don't be so quick to constantly change setups. Try making a single heelside turn and actually end up pointing up hill. Make sure you feel yourself following the radius of the turn with your eyes as well.

Yeah. This is good stuff.

Stance and balance, with solid pressure evenly distributed. There's less to it than you think.

As JJ said, you can get lots of mileage in this one turn by repeating uphill turns over and over. Forget about the toeside for awhile... Just focus on the one.

We have this little stunt called a "fan progression" where you can start in the fall line of a mellow pitch, with a flat base in a solid stance and just tip it over with equal pressure. As you get it locked in, slowly begin to increase the amount of traverse you have going into it as a progressive way to feel a carve through the whole turn. Essentially, you'll only start by attempting to carve the last half of the turn, working your way up to the whole thing.

Let us know how it goes.

[BlueB]

Don't fiddle with the setup, it makes it worse. Just stick to what feels comfortable rigt now and work on the technique.

I also think it's the tail wash-out. Try "twisting the disks", especially on the rear foot. After the transition to heel side, drive your rear knee into the turn, at the same time rotate the foot forward and toes up, i.e. twist the disk.

For me softies carve just fine at 30 to 45 angles, but my heel side struggles on classic low angles.

[Rob Stevens]

Photodad:

We need a series of pictures or a little film clip.

If you're just getting into carving, dragging your backside could be a bit ambitious.

When we can't see you, you'll have greater disagreement in what you should do, because there are different degrees to which you should perform any movement according to your ability. You may find that after we look at pictures, we're reccommending that you try some other things before you start thinking about ass dragging a carved turn.

[D.T.]

Once in the carve remember to push your feet through the turn to keep the tail engaged.

My feeling is that, if he drives the board fwd. on heelside while pushing his feet away from his core, he won't skid.

what, do all "oldschool" racers think the same?:D

photodad - I used to load the nose of the board and too far forward which either resulted in the nose sliding out from under me or the tail breaking loose. The advice offered by Inkaholic, and now repeated by WB, cured the problem I was having.

[Dave ESPI]

If you are carving in softies, chances are your slip is due to not pulling that back binding up and in twards your ass. Push your hip forward to get nose bite when initiating, then for the middle of it, "Cowboy" the board by pinching in to get it to bend and shift your upper body weight down into to your rear binding heel as you come through the last third of the heelside and start to push the front knee forward to the toe side to give the board a ~ tweek shape to snap it over for the toeside initiation while your weight is still on the back foot. Your upper body will be rolling on figure "8" motion over the 2 bindings. In the middle of the carve you will see it widen from the back of your bindings tipping in the snow.

It is how I can best describe how I manage to drop low on a heel side and keep the flex and rear fron skidding out.

HOWEVER... if the conditions are sketchmo, the carve fails and I've been known to wash out and do a 180 degree rodeo butt-spin as well....

:lol:

On a good day, it looks like this :

[Rob Stevens]

My feeling is that, if he drives the board fwd. on heelside while pushing his feet away from his core, he won't skid.

Thats fair enough.

I don't really see a need to see what the rider is doing wrong, in order to suggest what to do, correctly.;)

...but that's just me........

I have trouble with that part as I am very visual, but I see your point that good technique is good technique. I just wonder if people sometimes can be seen to be attempting combinations of moves to advanced for their abilities. For example, if someone doesn't know how to push their feet away from themselves very well because they have a stance and balance problem, would they have a hard time driving the board forward as it is a more complicated move?

What do you think, Swami?

[Rob Stevens]

I totally agree with the above and would not suggest that I would ever tell someone what they're doing wrong. They already do it wrong just fine and don't need negative reinforcement to do it any worse.

The negative image is for my own internalization, so that I can formulate a positive "To and Try, By" when I open my mouth to give feedback.

I still like video and pictures are good if they're sequences.

[photodad2001]

Photodad:

We need a series of pictures or a little film clip.

If you're just getting into carving, dragging your backside could be a bit ambitious.

Hopefully I'll get someone to take some photos this weekend.

I guess I'm just trying to match up my heel side to my toe side. On toe side I can carve a complete loop. Just wondering if there was something I was missing.

[photodad2001]

Yes there is: driving the board forward beneath you.

Just want to clarify what you mean by "driving". Do you mean to push the board forward? Wouldn't that put my weight on my back leg?