Frustrated Dad needs Expert Help!

[Flash]

My oldest son, who is almost 8, has been riding a few days a year for the last 2 seasons. Initially, I think he would go riding with me because he knows how much his Dad gets into it, but recently, he as asked me (unsolicited) to take him. I think he is starting to catch the bug.

He is able to turn (on his edge) to the right and to the left, but he is having the hardest time linking his turns. We are both getting frustrated that it has not clicked yet. I have tried various ways to explain to him how to turn from one edge to another and have even forked over some $$$ for private lessons, but it is not happening.

Does anyone know of a good methodology to teach linked turns? One of my happiest days will be our first real ride together from top-to-bottom, but right now we are stuck on the bunny hill.

Thanks in advance for any insights...

[tex1230]

riding a few days a year for the last 2 seasons...

Just keep taking him to the hill. no better teacher than more days on snow.

Don't take him on anything steeper than the easiest beginner run on your mountain until he can link turns. nothing messes up future riding worse than the bad habits developed by going too steep too soon. Stick with the lessons if you can.

[ncermak]

always tough, but once it clicks you're all set.

some things you can stress: good balanced postition, drive from the front toe: push down the front big toe to go toeside, pickup the front big toe to go heelside. Bend the knees and ankles.

some things to try: have him point with hhis front hand to where he wants to go. try dancing - face each other and hold his hands, travers, and then talk into a turn. bring him around, and traverse back, then bring him around the other way.

he can turn on both edges, so have him make a heelside turn, to a complete stop. then have him make a toeside turn to a complete stop. have him do this several times, and he will start to get comfortable, and stop for less time between turns. this will then becom linked turns, when he does it without a stop inbetween.

Also, Have him link one turn, then stop. recompose, and do it again. then start to increase the number of turns.

[neil sunday]

I work with young riders/racers all the time. I coach and train at Ski Roundtop in Harrisburg, PA and Vail, CO.

Ski Roundtop, PA is where we could do something.

Email me for references to set up something if you would like. You will not be disappointed.

Regards-

Neil

[philfell]

Be patient and don't get frustrated, that will drive him away super fast. Keep the mood light, fun and playful. Remember that snowboarding is hard and your kid is 8. According to your post he has only been on snow 4 or so times with huge time lapses between sessions. I think your standards may be too high for the little guy.

That said you can try this, only if you are very proficent at riding one foot. Find a bamboo pole, they are all over resorts if you look closely. Have him hold it with both hands out in front of him. You also hold onto it. Start off having him slid-slip with you in front of him, do traverses both ways. Than you can start to have him steet into then out of the fall line. When he can do this on both edges you can have him switch edges when his board is directly in the fall line. You are both holding the pole so you can aid in his balance and do much of the steering for him until he gets the feeling of it. Also when he starts to feel good with it you can start letting go of the pole without him knowing for short periods of time.

Good luck, you may also want to take up Neil or William on their offer.

[Flash]

Great advice by everyone. I guess I should chill a bit and not expect so much so soon.

William - I sent you a PM. If you are anywhere around Mountain Creek, it makes it very easy. Mt Peter works too.

Thanks again to all for your time and help!

[Bordy]

I agree with all the other poster advise, and just want to through in on last item.

You son loves you to much to listen well to you. Find some one for him to work with that is not family. He will progress much faster. I would take any offers for help.

[ncermak]

Bordy,

The way you've been going today, I thought you were going to tell him to get on a MADD BX board...

-Noah

[Bordy]

Perhaps.....:D

If only they made a little guy Kessler....

HA HA

[Flash]

B-2:

Your post was fantastic... absolutely top-notch. Can you repost it so you can drop some knowledge on the rest of the community?

Thanks again to all for the help.

Flash

[Art]

Remember, as parents, we often expect too much from our kids. Its easy for us to forget that what might be second nature to us is new to them. They have to be comfortable in their ability to progress. I was frustrated with my 3 1/2 y/o last week because he forgot how to ski. Totally irrational on my part. It has been almost a year since he has been on snow, the conditions were different, it was at night (tired) and not in the Sun valley sun. Of course, he wants to ride the chair with his big bro, but we are still working on stopping. Of course, that makes more work for dear old dad and mom, and of course, I am still going off of last years results. Once I got my head on straight, and we made snow angels for awhile, I remembered to enjoy the time on the hill with my kid who (for whatever reason) wants to be just like me. We started again, rode the chair, I let it run with him between my legs (on skis, sorry to dissapoint), and he loved the speed. He cant wait to go again, had fun and will definately learn from others better than me when the time comes. I also had to remember that this was his experience, not mine, I get that when I am on the snow with the fellas. Have fun, sounds like you guys have some great times ahead.

[Flash]

Right on, Art.

[boostertwo]

B-2:

Your post...

Hello Flash,

Thanks for the kind words. I’m stoked you’re out with your son and he’s excited about riding. The reason I pulled my post this morning is that, on reflection, I thought it was presumptuous to recommend any action without first asking a few questions to better understand exactly what your son is doing. I regret I didn’t have time to rewrite it this morning as I had some business out on the hill at Vail, but I was planning on revisiting your question this evening.

I think it would be helpful if you could describe in more detail what your son is finding difficult. You mention he is “…able to turn (on his edge) to the right and to the left, but he is having the hardest time linking his turns.”

When he is ‘turning’on either edge, is he traversing mostly across the slope—or is he able to steer his board so it points down the fall-line and then make a turn back across the hill?

When he tries to make a turn with an edge change, does he consistently fall in a particular direction? Where in the turn (start, middle, end) does he lose his balance? Does it happen only on one turn (either toeside or heelside), or on both? You mention he is practicing on the bunny hill; is there traffic on the slope or other potential distractions that might affect his learning?

The answers to these questions will likely help identify a more specific and effective course of action with your son. If you've time, please post any additional info you might be able to offer and I'm sure that you'll get even more specific--and helpful--advice to help your son.

<img src="http://i29.tinypic.com/2hduo38.jpg" border="0" alt="'When performing any linked turn with an edge change, your core and base of support must 'swap sides'. Yannick, Remarkables, New Zealand">

Cheers,

B-2

[boostertwo]

...Can you repost it?

Here t'is. Sorry about it being so long; I didn't have time to write a shorter one.

Cheers,

B-2

He is able to turn (on his edge) to the right and to the left, but he is having the hardest time linking his turns. We are both getting frustrated that it has not clicked yet. I have tried various ways to explain to him how to turn from one edge to another ...but it is not happening.

...right now we are stuck on the bunny hill.

Thanks in advance for any insights...

Hello Flash,

I'm no expert, but I do have a little bit of experience helping people learn and improve on their boards and would like to humbly offer a few suggestions to complement the other good advice you have received in this thread.

By way of disclaimer, I should state up front that to optimize your son’s learning it would help to have some more information about your son’s riding and the environment in which he is practicing. This would enable BOL members to recommend much more specific tactics and exercises to enhance his learning. It is not clear from your description exactly what your son's difficulty might be. Is he able to consistently control his speed and direction on either edge? Does he lose his balance when attempting to turn? If he does, is there a consistent pattern in the direction he falls? This info can help diagnose what aspect of his riding he should focus on.

Generic Advice:

• Equipment check: I'm assuming that you are helping your son with his equipment and that the board, boots, and bindings fit him well. As I'm sure you know, loose boots can detract from performance, requiring a rider to make a bigger movement, taking more time, to transition from edge to edge. If you're not helping your son fasten his boots, it'd be a good idea to check to make sure they are comfortably snug (is he riding soft boots or hard?). Same with binders.
  
• Terrain/Snow/Traffic Check: Find a productive environment in which to practice. From your description, it sounds like the slope isn't too steep, which is sometimes a psychological challenge for new riders as they start linking turns. As you mention, you are on the bunny hill, but even so, it can help to try first linked turns (with an edge change) on very benign, mellow parts of the slope (even bunny hills can have steeper and less steep sections). A wide, well-groomed, uncrowded slope is preferable as it removes distractions when performing first turns with an edge change.
  
• Work up to linked turns through a logical sequence of easily mastered tasks: If your son is having trouble making the entire turn with an edge change, it often helps to break the turn down into smaller, more easily learned parts.
  

You mention that he "is able to turn (on his edge) to the right and to the left".

1. If he is doing this on a traverse, steering the board partly (but not completely) down the slope, it might help to have him focus on progressively steering the board further and further done the fall line, until he is able to steer it completely down the slope and back across, staying on a single edge.
   
   • Practice long, swooping turns across the slope, and then with smaller 'surf curback' moves (this allows a new rider to feel the movements necessary to redirect the board for longer durations at first, and then adds a degree of athleticism as he takes the same movements and makes them larger and quicker). Again, you're looking to develop comfort and confidence with guiding the board down/back across the slope. Start with shallow traverses and work your way to steering fully down and back across the slope, heelside and toeside.
     
   • A good next step would be to then develop accuracy and precision with these moves. One exercise to develop this is ‘target traverses’, in which he is asked to try stopping on a target. A shadow, track, or small clump of snow works well. A count works equally well, as in ‘come to a balanced stop when I count to three’. Start with larger ‘zone’ targets and decrease the size of the target and the increase the speed of your approach as he develops proficiency. This can also help a rider to develop confidence that they can reliably and consistently control their speed and direction, which can help address any psychological hurdles to performing first turns.
     

<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/2rh8t4x.jpg" border="0" alt="Target Traverses help to develop accuracy and precision--and boost confidence. Start by traversing mostly across the slope. Decrease the size of the target and increase speed as rider develops proficiency."><br>

[*]If he can do this consistently on either edge traversing the slope, it is a fairly easy (and small) step, to then add the edge change.

• He can get the feeling of the edge change through a variety of exercises. One is to simply have him practice the edge change move on flat ground, without the distraction of his board accelerating down the slope. You can do this on lift lines, after strapping in, at the top of the lift—anytime you have a flat spot and a few minutes to devote to developing the edge change movement. He can also practice this movement at home, in front of a full length mirror. Focus on smooth, gradual movements to engage and release the edges.
  
• As he does this, it is helpful to focus on the movement he is using to tilt the board—it is generally most productive to move the core over the ‘working’ edge, and to further tilt the board by flexing the knees out over the toes (toeside) or through slightly straightening the knees (not fully locked) and pulling up the toes going heelside. Often, people make a big leaning movement of their entire body to tilt the board, which works well at higher speed, but isn’t the most effective move to tilt the board while moving more slowly. At slow speeds, think knees and ankles.
  

[*]You can also practice this using an 'alternate skate', pushing from the toe/heel edge on every other push. This requires the rider to move his core across the board with some degree of accuracy and precision in a controlled (benign) environment before applying it making his first linked turns.

[*]When your son can consistently perform the edge change movement while stationary, a good next step might be to try it on a extremely gentle slope, where acceleration to warp speed straight lining down the slope would not be possible (the slope should be so mellow he doesn't accelerate any faster than walking speed). Straight run the mellow slope and make smooth, gradual movements to roll the board from heel to toe edge, and back again.

• When he is able to consistently change edges on a straight run in control and balance, add a further challenge of doing so with higher levels of accuracy and precision. A fun way to do this would be to make a course, using gloves, small snowmen, or other benign objects around which to turn.
  

[*]When taking the turn onto the bunny slope, it is helpful to focus on the timing of the edge change. It has to happen when the board is moving straight ahead (otherwise he will catch his edge). For most beginners, this occurs at the middle of the turn. It can help to diagram this out on the snow, and to provide a verbal cue for his first turns with an edge change ("…not yet,...not yet,...now change your edge"), and then, as he practices, have him say the word "now" at the appropriate time for the edge change. As Phil mentioned, it can also be helpful to provide a bit of physical assistance as your son is learning this. I've had good results riding to the inside of the intended turn and loosely holding the rider's rear hand. Provide support when needed, but encourage your son to balance on his board and to use your hand for balance only if he feels like he's going to tip over.

[*]Lastly, focus on finishing each turn. Remind your son that as he starts his next turn he will be adding to the speed he already has. If adding to his speed would put him into the ‘yikes’ zone, he should continue to steer his board across (and, sometimes, up) the slope to slow down. If he’s OK with adding to his speed, and if slope/traffic/snow conditions are favorable, start the next turn.

[*]Have fun.

<img src="http://i26.tinypic.com/o8uyie.jpg" border="0" alt="Timing the edge change is critical for success in first turns: it needs to happen when the board is moving straight ahead. For most beginners (who are likely skidding) this is near the middle of each turn. As a rider develops proficiency (and can carve), the edge change happens at the start of the turn.">

My .02. Hope it helps.

Cheers,

B-2

[boostertwo]

...how come you do not advocate helmet safety?

Yo; Bola,

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking. If you're referring to the images, I don't dress 'em. I just shoot 'em and get the hell out of the way.

<img src="http://i27.tinypic.com/2132gqw.jpg" border="0" alt="Garrett Lisi protecting his noggin, Beaver Creek, CO.">

Cheers,

B-2

[Flash]

When he tries to make a turn with an edge change, does he consistently fall in a particular direction? Where in the turn (start, middle, end) does he lose his balance? Does it happen only on one turn (either toeside or heelside), or on both? You mention he is practicing on the bunny hill; is there traffic on the slope or other potential distractions that might affect his learning?

The answers to these questions will likely help identify a more specific and effective course of action with your son. If you've time, please post any additional info you might be able to offer and I'm sure that you'll get even more specific--and helpful--advice to help your son.

B-2:

He seems to make his turns way too "flat". I have discussed the idea of the falling leaf so he understands the concept of edge usuage and he gets that, but he seems to be starting his turn transitions way too late. There is no use of the fall line and I am not quite sure how to explain to him how the fall line should be used for turn initiation. He seems to consistantly fall forward on his toeside turns and backward on his heelside turns...he doesn't understand the concept of changing his edges.

He also isn't keeping his weight centered over the board and tends to end up on his butt when he looses momentum when he is riding on his heelside, and on his hands alot when looses momentum when he is riding on his toeside.

I am not quite sure how to explain these concepts to him as they seem innate to me...and I am admittedly not a great teacher. Any further advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks,

Flash

[boostertwo]

Hello Flash,

Thanks for the additional detail. Before making any suggestions, I'd like to mention it has been my experience that it usually takes a while for people to develop a common language to communicate 'snowboarding'. I'm happy to make a few recommendations, but please bear in mind that what you mean to communicate and what I understand might be two entirely different things. Working with a live, qualified instructor, or posting video or images would provide a much better understanding of what your son is actually doing, and will produce more on-target suggestions and better results.

...He seems to consistantly fall forward on his toeside turns and backward on his heelside turns...he doesn't understand the concept of changing his edges.

If he's falling forward on his toeside, and backward on heelside near the start of his turns, it's likely that he's making the right move (changing edges), but just a bit early. Beginner riders usually skid their first turns, and if they make the move to the new edge near the start of the turn, they'll typically lose their balance, falling downhill and to the inside of the intended turn. From your description, it sounds like this might be the case.

For most beginners, it's helpful to time the edge change so that it happens at the middle of the turn--when the board is pointed downhill. There are lots of ways to help your son make his edge change at the middle of the turn. You can draw a turn on the snow and ask him to point to the place where he'll change edges. You can provide a verbal prompt at the precise moment to change edges ('...not yet...not yet, <em>now</em>!'). You can use cut-in-half tennis balls, colored yogurt lids, or other board-friendly objects to make a course for your son to follow, with a unique one marking the place to switch edges. You can ride alongside your son and provide a bit of physical support (and reassurance) for his first turns. After a few successful repetitions, have him say the word "now" at the appropriate moment, as he's changing edges. He can follow you, making slooow turns to a stop, and copy your movements. Once he gets the feeling for it, it'll quickly become second nature.

Keep in mind that it will be easier for your son to focus on timing the edge change to the appropriate part of the turn if there are not a lot of distractions on the slope. A gentle, wide, uncrowded, groomed slope works best. As Ncermak mentioned, it can help to take 'em one turn at a time, and to come to a complete stop before starting the next one (this also allows for post-turn celebration).

...He also isn't keeping his weight centered over the board and tends to end up on his butt when he looses momentum when he is riding on his heelside, and on his hands alot when looses momentum when he is riding on his toeside...

This sounds to me like he's leaning his whole body to tilt the board on the toe edge, and moving his hips out to tilt heelside (see the sitting in a chair thread--IMHO not the best option for teaching beginners how to tilt the board at lower speeds). While there are situations in which this move works (like going fast) it's not the most appropriate movement to tilt the board at lower speeds, and will usually result in lots of 'tip over' falls. (BTW, I think this also happens to lot of new carvers, who try to 'norm' it at slow speeds and tip over.) At slow speeds, it's far better to tilt the board using movements of the knees and ankles. The riders hips/cm/core move over the 'working' edge, and the knees and ankles are used to further tilt the board on edge.

There are many ways in which to get your son to feel the difference between leaning his whole body or hips, and using his knees and ankles to tilt the board. You can hold both of his hands and ask him to lean away from you to tilt the board (you holding him up), and then ask him to instead lean his hips, then his knees, and then pull up or push down with his toes. He can practice in front of a full length mirror. You can place your hands in front of/behind his knees and ask him to push them towards your hands. As he learns to make the move from the knees and ankles, it's also helpful to encourage him to make them smooth, gradual, and small, rather than sudden, herky-jerky, or super-sized. Tasks which require him to tilt the board a certain amount, hold it for a short while, and then slowly make a change help to develop these qualities. You can do this while stationary, holding his hands, or on slow traverses and sideslips (asking him to go real slow, then after riding at a constant slow speed for a while to go a bit faster, then slower, etc).

Bottom line: by making the movement out of the knees and ankles, he'll keep his body over the board as he tilts it, and won't tip over.

BTW, it's usually a good idea to underscore that all of these movements are good movements, but that there are situations where one will work much better than another. Your son may tip over from time to time as he learns to tilt the board using his lower leg joints, and if he does it would be helpful to encourage him by saying that its the right move--but the wrong situation. He should save that move for when he's really going fast (IIRC the current world speed record on a snowboard is 123 mph). At slow speeds it's better to make the movement from the knees and ankles.

<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/1250u9d.jpg" border="0" alt="Jeff Cooper, Vail, CO.">

IMO, that is.

Hope this helps.

B-2

[Flash]

Thanks again to everyone, especially B-2 for the insights. I am really looking forward to taking my son out again this weekend for another try.

Flash

[Mr. T]

Sounds like he needs a little more progression into feeling comfortale riding straight down the fall line and working into edge transition. Going back to the bunny hill and practicing back foot out turns may help get him used to centering and weighting the front foot without the fear of uncontrolled speed.

Start him with straight runs with back foot out, and progress to straight runs with turns both heel and toe, but starting with the board going straight down the fall line. Once he feels comfortale with starting with the board straight down the fall line into a turn back foot out, have him start on an edge, slightly off fall line and work on weighting the frontfoot to get the oard down the fall line, the into a turn. Stress proper stance, weight on the front foot, bent knees, proper upper body position both on the straight run and through the turns, edging and pressure to finish the turn. Garlands are something PSIA used to model, esentially it's doing a series of of the same edge turns with the intent of working up to a full flat base, with the goal of transition to the other edge. It is a great drill with back foot out (but difficult) on the bunny hill because if one can do it back foot out, locked and loaded with both feet is a breeze.

Try it for yourself first and see if you can model it for him. Generally, though there is not enough real estate on the bunny hill to link many garlands. The key is that he feels comfortable with the board going straight down the fall line, and that he can transition quickly onto the next edge without the fear of going too fast. Feelings of excess speed and loss of control in a beginner usually translate to weighting the back foot insted of the front and sitting or bailing out.

Hope this makes some sense. I had a three year old climbing on my back as I wrote this. tom

[bill b]

as a dad of a 12, 9, 6 yr old girls, i just let mine be and they figured it from watching me and others. my 12, 9 and me tear it up on anything we want. and it so cool doing with your girls. just hang in there ,dont try teaching them, they wont listen anyway,save your money on the lessons for when they are a little older. its frustrating now, i was tortured for 8yrs.dont worry , it gets so much better, trust me

[bill b]

bola, lighten up. ive been a ski instructor,bump coach and a trained youth soccer coach and have 3 little kids, i understand kids. all i was trying to say was dont stress over the instruction. just enjoy the time outside with your family and the rest will come. i value instructors and look forward to when i retire from business and can learn to be a snowboard instructor and start my next career. when my oldest was just starting out we put her into a ski school and it was a bad exprience and it turned her and her sisters off to formal instruction. now that she is older ,she looks for any instruction and coaching she can get as do i attend any clinic i can find.