class 4 avalanche

[vapor]

Was doing an avi course on the next peak to Big White when an avalanche inbound on the cliff chair let go A total of about 6 acres was affected. This is about as real as i want my avi course to get :(

My roomate was on the chair as it swept through it,said it was surreal watching people trying to get away. Its sad but astonishing that only one person was killed.

[Buell]

There have been a number of inbounds avalanches, some with injuries and fatalities, already this season. These are happening on slopes that have been controled and opened by patrol. The Canyons in Utah had one inbounds avalanche fatality, Squaw in Tahoe had a slide, Blackcomb had an inbounds avalanche. Many of the slopes have been ridden on for hours before the slides occur. Everyone be careful out there, even inbounds.

I have been following the Big White one on this TGR thread.

A couple of photos, one was taken from the chair during the slide.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, they finally found that last guy they were looking for, unfortunately he was buried. 22 year old Australian kid working there for the season like many others.

[pebu]

You guys are scaring me! I've never been boarding out west, but I have a trip to steamboat coming up... Should I be looking for an avalanche beacon or something to have when I'm out there? Should I be doing anything special to be prepared to board there?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You shouldn't need a beacon unless you're riding in the dangerous terrain. The avalanche area at Big White was Parachute, which is part of a double-diamond zone called "The Cliff". IIRC in good snow years you typically enter by dropping a 10'+ cornice and landing on a 40 degree plus slope - not exactly a carving area.

Anywhere I've been where there's avalanche danger has had warning signs and been nowhere near carving terrain.

[D-Sub]

You guys are scaring me! I've never been boarding out west, but I have a trip to steamboat coming up... Should I be looking for an avalanche beacon or something to have when I'm out there? Should I be doing anything special to be prepared to board there?

There isn't a single place inbounds at the Steamboat resort that an avalanche will ever occur.

Pretty darn sure of that.

RIP to the dead. Better'n dyin on the couch though.

[Blue Bird]

You guys are scaring me! I've never been boarding out west, but I have a trip to steamboat coming up... Should I be looking for an avalanche beacon or something to have when I'm out there? Should I be doing anything special to be prepared to board there?

If you are staying in bounds you will be as safe as you are going to be. If it's your time, there is nothing you can do about it and inbounds avalanches are very rare even with the incidents this year.

If you plan on going for the steeps a beacon won't hurt, remember one beacon is worthless and two beacons with inexperienced users is a panic situation. The ski patrol is likely the only other people with one and they will be 20-30 minutes away which is too late.

[tex1230]

yeah - patrol probably won't be searching with beacons in an inbounds avy (correct me if I'm wrong) - Get a recco patch in your boot or jacket if you're really concerned. If you're inbounds at Steamboat, you're in some pretty safe stuff.

[Kaida]

Here's a list of resorts that use the RECCO system. If your local resort doesn't use it and is at risk of avalanches, encourage them to promote the safety of their customers and staff.

http://www.recco.com/resorts/index.asp

More and more gear is coming equipped with these passive (read: idiot proof) reflectors. Read more about this interesting technology on their site. They also encourage you to have two reflectors on your person in the event you are trapped in an akward position and your body is blocking one of the reflectors.

[Gtanner]

Careful relying on the Recco system. From what I've been told by the Avalnache instructors with the CAA (canadian avalanche association) the RECCO system requires a large/cumbersom machine to be mounted into a helicopter...this would take awhile to accomplish in an avy situation.

If you're heading out of bounds, get avy training, read the avalanche bulletins, have gear (incl beacons/shovels/propes) with training on their use and go with a buddy.

-Gord

[skategoat]

How are you supposed to stay careful? Cause, I wouldn't recognise avalanche conditions unless there was a sign - "Warning - Avalanche Conditions". Plus, what do you do if a slide happens? I know you're supposed to ride like hell and off to the side but really, it's mostly just *hit luck.

As for avalanche prone slopes, I thought avalanches were most likely in moderate slopes, not especially steep and not flat which seems to me like the kind of slopes we would ride on.

From the Canadian Avalanche Association:

Avalanches are rare on slopes with an incline greater than 55 degrees because the snow sluffs off frequently in small amounts.

60 to 90 degrees Avalanches are rare; snow sluffs frequently in small amounts.

30 to 60 degrees Dry, loose snow avalanches.

45 to 55 degrees Frequent small slab avalanches.

30 to 45 degrees Slab avalanches of all sizes.

25 to 30 degrees Infrequent (often large) slab avalanches; wet loose snow avalanches.

10 to 25 degrees Infrequent wet snow avalanches and slush flows.

A minimum slope angle is required to initiate a slab failure, however, a fracture may propagate to an area with less incline after initial failure on a steeper slope has occurred.

As for equipment, I've heard good things about the Avalung. When and if I organize a cat trip, I'll probably invest in one.

http://www.avalung.com/flash/avalung.html

[Kaida]

Careful relying on the Recco system. From what I've been told by the Avalnache instructors with the CAA (canadian avalanche association) the RECCO system requires a large/cumbersom machine to be mounted into a helicopter...this would take awhile to accomplish in an avy situation.

If you're heading out of bounds, get avy training, read the avalanche bulletins, have gear (incl beacons/shovels/propes) with training on their use and go with a buddy.

-Gord

I totally agree with getting avy training and knowing the conditions. The RECCO system is another tool in being prepared and is cheap insurance. The system is usable on foot/skis as well as on a helicopter. Per their site:

The rescue crew can effectively search with the detector whether on foot, on skis or in a helicopter. Searching by helicopter has become a common use of the RECCO detector due to its extensive range through the air. In this situation, the pilot can be wired to hear the signal through his or her headphones, enabling the helicopter to quickly hone in on the burial and saving significant time in an organized rescue. The detector transports easily, loads quickly and also requires no external apparatus, making it ideal for this airborne application.

[David Glynn]

Pebu, Steamboat is a good sized mountain and is a lot of fun to ski or ride but steep and avi prone it is not. Lots of mid and low angle runs and glades. Their steepest runs may approach 35 degrees at best and there are only a SMALL handfull of those and they are quite short in length with smallish moguls to help anchor any sliding snow. My favorite part of the area is priest creek. Most of their black runs (I don't think they have any double blacks) are double blue at best in my opinion.

If however you are desiring to go out of bounds at any ski area out west you should have all the avi gear, beacon ,shovel, probes, and know how to use them at a minimum. Educate yourself; attend an avi clinic if you ever see one offered, in the meantime read all you can on avalanches.When it is time to go O.B. you'll be ready; then make sure everyone else in your party is ready too. Oh and practice, practice, practice with your beacon.

Here in Ophir Co. We just had a 50 " storm. Things are pretty slidey. We had several slides cross our road sat. night and more today when they did control work. The road is buried in places up to 15 feet deep and it will be at least another day before it is cleared. Steamboat is nowhere near the pitch of the terrain that we have here in the Ophir valley. In bounds at Steamboat there should be very little reason to worry.

[Skully]

The ski patrol is likely the only other people with one and they will be 20-30 minutes away which is too late.

Not necessarily true. Patrol was on site searching within minutes at the slide at The Canyons, and without a doubt saved one life:

http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/Accidents/Accidents,07-08/12-24-07,%20Canyons%20Accident,%20Lees-Kobernik/12-23-07,%20Canyons%20Accident,%20Lees-Kobernik.htm

http://www.utahskiandsnowboard.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=177

[Neil Gendzwill]

As for avalanche prone slopes, I thought avalanches were most likely in moderate slopes, not especially steep and not flat which seems to me like the kind of slopes we would ride on.

Depends on how you define "moderate" - most runs rated "black diamond" in resorts are not much over 30 degrees. Parachute is maybe not so steep if you're accustomed to riding with an ice axe in either hand but by most resort riders' butt-pucker factor it's pretty damn steep.

[vapor]

You shouldn't need a beacon unless you're riding in the dangerous terrain. The avalanche area at Big White was Parachute, which is part of a double-diamond zone called "The Cliff". IIRC in good snow years you typically enter by dropping a 10'+ cornice and landing on a 40 degree plus slope - not exactly a carving area.

Anywhere I've been where there's avalanche danger has had warning signs and been nowhere near carving terrain.

Come on Neil, haven't you launched off a 10 footer into a perfect toe carve on a split with hb and plates????

it is rare that thinks slide inbounds but was talking to the avi director last night about the situationand he said there was slides on the same aspect the same day inbounds in ferrnie/ blackome as well as another hill i cant remember, with no one catching the situation.

Are class was on the scene in about ten mins and the ski patrol had already recovered two partial burials and had probe lines set up looking for him.I have nothing but upmost respect for these guys.

[skategoat]

I wonder if it's worse to be on a snowboard than skis if you are caught in a slide. I read about the guy who survived this avalanche and he was wearing skis. When he got hit, he lost his skis and poles and started "swimming". He ended up buried up to his waist.

With a snowboard firmly attached, I have to think it's going to drag you down and inhibit any attempt to swim to the top. Just my speculation. I wouldn't want to test this out.

[Rob Stevens]

Yes. Snowboard = Anchor.

Another point for the Noboard in the BC.

[skategoat]

Depends on how you define "moderate" - most runs rated "black diamond" in resorts are not much over 30 degrees. Parachute is maybe not so steep if you're accustomed to riding with an ice axe in either hand but by most resort riders' butt-pucker factor it's pretty damn steep.

Ya, I've been there. Looked at the Cliff face from Sun Run. At the time, it was a jump entry from a cornice. I said "no thanks" and merrily carved down the blue square.

[Dr D]

Careful relying on the Recco system. From what I've been told by the Avalnache instructors with the CAA (canadian avalanche association) the RECCO system requires a large/cumbersom machine to be mounted into a helicopter...this would take awhile to accomplish in an avy situation.

If you're heading out of bounds, get avy training, read the avalanche bulletins, have gear (incl beacons/shovels/propes) with training on their use and go with a buddy.

-Gord

large cumbersome? the website says the detector weighs 1.6 pounds. easily man portable. maybe the helicopter version is larger for longer distances?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ya, I've been there. Looked at the Cliff face from Sun Run. At the time, it was a jump entry from a cornice. I said "no thanks" and merrily carved down the blue square.

When they've got fresh, that's the funnest place to be on that hill (the Cliff, not Sun Run). That was my first experience there - jump entry into 3' of fresh, I think that calls for both a whoo and a hoo. Back then the exit was a really steep platter, which wasn't there last time I was (got taken out by a slide, I think). They've since installed a chair, which I think was a mistake - should have kept the platter to keep all the idiots away, like they do with Summit at Louise.

[tufty]

large cumbersome? the website says the detector weighs 1.6 pounds. easily man portable. maybe the helicopter version is larger for longer distances?

Probably that, yeah. I've never seen a helo setup for recco, but I've used the portable version (in training only, thank gh0d), it's very small.

Simon

[philfell]

yeah - patrol probably won't be searching with beacons in an inbounds avy (correct me if I'm wrong) .

Most of the ski patorlers I know of where becons and they are trained that if there is an inbounds avalanche to do a becon search asap, just in case. All the avalanche courses I've taken encourage wearing a becon on deep powder days with moderate avalance danger, even if you don't plan to leave the resorts boundries. They advocte this for many reasons, one if you get caught in a slide ski patrol will do a becon search. Tow if you are near an inbounds slide you can do a becon search before ski patrol gets there, and determine if there is or isn't a signal, and it could save them a step before setting up a probe line, this could save time and lives.

Now with that info, I don't recommend going out and buying a becon if you never plan on riding out of bounds, in bounds slides are far too uncommon to justify the price. But if you already have one it is good to be in the habit of wearing one on all pow days.

[philfell]

Oh yeah avalanche.org is a great website with a ton of usefull info.

[JoelP]

At Snowmass and Aspen Highlands there is some hike to ski terrain. Whenever I am in there I where my beacon. I also have 2 so that when someone doesn't have one I strap one on them too. In 25+ years of ski/snowboarding in bounds I've been in 3 slides of which not one has buried me but I've been caught in them. The ski areas are opening more difficult, steeper terrain all the time and do a great job at it but snow is NOT 100% predictable in these extreme areas, it's always a small risk as compared to backcountry. If you ski/ride in bounds and are not pushing the extreme then the possibilities are about nill, but if your in the cliff bands and chutes that are open today there is some but minimal risk, therefore since I have the beacons...why not use them.

Joel