Bloody hell. USA's sure one hell of a "sue another" country.

[C5 Golfer]

You never made any mistakes as a kid? You never skied out of control? You never attempted a questionable pass without politely announcing "on your right"? If so, you were a way better kid than me.

I'm not saying give all kids a pass to do whatever they want, I'm just saying kids make mistakes. It's how we all grow up. Come on. A 7 year old simply does not have the same presence of mind nor judgment as an adult. They cannot be held accountable for the same things or at the same level as an adult.

Furthermore, I stand by what I said about risk. If you can't accept that people/kids are possibly going to crash into you on the ski hill, do something else. Yeah, in a perfect world it would never happen, but it does.

to bad we are not in a bar having a beer or two...but but but Yea I made mistakes and I learned from them -- sometimes my parents wondered just who and the hell is this kid but that is another story,

So if I hear you correctly - If you were to be sitting down in the middle of a wide open run with plenty of visability and an out of control kid runs into you and damages your board to the point the metal edges are partially ripped away -- you going to just let it pass when the adult parent comes by and helps you up? The kid says he is sorry - it was a mistake -- you going home with a broken board and no compensation?

[LeeW]

So if I hear you correctly - If you were to be sitting down in the middle of a wide open run with plenty of visability and an out of control kid runs into you and damages your board to the point the metal edges are partially ripped away -- you going to just let it pass when the adult parent comes by and helps you up? The kid says he is sorry - it was a mistake -- you going home with a broken board and no compensation?

By law of the Colorado Skier Safety Act, its the uphill skiier's responsibility to be in control at all times and be observant.

[willywhit]

By law of the Colorado Skier Safety Act, its the uphill skiier's responsibility to be in control at all times and be observant.

Lee,

I just figgered out your avatar....fanning the flames, keep the blaze going :rolleyes:

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this made me almost gag ice coffee thru my nose today. There's a pretty funny thread on the "other" forum about this whole thing.

"8 year olds dude" LMAO

[skatha]

So an out of control 7 year old hit an old guy hard enough to dislocate his shoulder, tear his rotator cuff so badly he needed surgery, and cost him $75,000 in medical bills. (I'm sure that at 60, he had no or minimal medical coverage). So that's either one huge 7 year old, or a normal 7 year old travelling really fast. I'd be a little bent out of shape as well.

If the "kid" had been 15, it would have been a completely different story.

Why does the kid get off because "he's just a baby"? 7 years old is way old enough to know that you don't tear around the ski hill hitting people, the same as you don't run around the mall with a shopping cart running into people's legs. And if he doesn't know any better, then it's his parents fault for not teaching him any better, and maybe an insurance claim might teach them some parenting skills.

I'm totally over the whole culture of kids not being responsible for anything they do, and the whole "touch me not" thing. And if the kid is scared to go back on the ski hill - maybe that's a good thing - one less social menace for responsible skiers to look out for.

Unfortunately, a 60 year old man could have had enough deterioration in his rotator cuff that he would have needed surgery anyway. I had a friend-45, no less-no skiing nor dislocations in her past-that has required 2 rotator cuff repairs. I re-dislocated my shoulder in the drive-thru line at Chic-Fil-A, putting a drink carrier in the back seat. So once the capsule or rotator cuff is gone, it doesn't take a lot of force to pop a shoulder out. I would not have been able to grab anything when it was out, though-the act of breathing was painful enough.

I dispute his claim of cost of care. The hospital cost me $25,000. The doc got about $1000. I did my PT at home and I took 4 days off after the surgery.

I was able to start cleaning and cooking about 2 weeks post-op. I needed to, my husband was killing me with his cooking. In all, with my doctor's salary, my labrum/anterior capsule repair cost me about $28,000

[Steve Prokopiw]

28,000.00 and 75,000.00 is 47,000.00;Sounds about right for the lawyer's cut.As the parent of a very enthusiastic 4 year old and the instructor of many,many 7 year olds,I can tell you that no 7 year old has the cognition of the real consequences of his or her enthusiastic actions until after the fact and,even then will not fully understand why mommy and daddy lost the house because of it.Absolute BS to sue for a seven year old's actions.Welcome to the land of the free,home of the brave,and festering cesspool of litigation. I think,if this is a sign of things to come,I will find another sport for my kids;and if many others do, lawyers will have made yet another past time or way of life unaffordable for all but the wealthiest.But hey,the ski industry has been well on it's way there for a long time anyway.

[Jack M]

So if I hear you correctly - If you were to be sitting down in the middle of a wide open run with plenty of visability and an out of control kid runs into you and damages your board to the point the metal edges are partially ripped away -- you going to just let it pass when the adult parent comes by and helps you up? The kid says he is sorry - it was a mistake -- you going home with a broken board and no compensation?

That would have to be one large 7 year old. But of course, I would expect and request some compensation in your example (the likes of which I've never seen or heard of), because I was clearly at zero fault and the kid was clearly at 100% fault. (Hmm, actually that would be questionable according to bullet 3 here.)

We do not know in this case if the blame is squarely on the child. We do not even know if the guy was even injured in the collision. I think it's quite possible the guy was having a sh*t day and cashed in all his grumpy chips on that kid, then went off and wrecked himself as a result of his fury.

Are you telling me that if my kid happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time on the hill and happens to bump into Mr. Glass that we're out 75k? Well that's not acceptible risk to me! I guess we'll just quit skiing! F#@k!

I refuse to believe we now live in a society where in order to participate in a sport, I must accept risk of lawsuit, but the other guy doesn't have to accept risk of injury. That would be complete bull.

I seriously hope a major dose of Karma happens to Jim Chalet, the slime sucking bottom feeder who makes his fat living off of this lunacy. And all his ilk.

[C5 Golfer]

That would have to be one large 7 year old. But of course, I would expect and request some compensation in your example (the likes of which I've never seen or heard of), because I was clearly at zero fault and the kid was clearly at 100% fault. (Hmm, actually that would be questionable according to bullet 3 here.)

We do not know in this case if the blame is squarely on the child. We do not even know if the guy was even injured in the collision. I think it's quite possible the guy was having a sh*t day and cashed in all his grumpy chips on that kid, then went off and wrecked himself as a result of his fury.

Jack,

Good answer.. It seems you and I are not that far in our assessment of the overall issue. I thought earlier you were saying sh&t happens / accidents happen without any recourse or consequences while on the hill. This is from your statement “If you can't accept that people/kids are possibly going to crash into you on the ski hill, do something else.“ What I am reading and hearing in most of the posts about this issue is not the fault of the kid and parental responsibility it is the monetary size of the claim. Maybe if the guy had just asked for money to repair any damaged equipment and or lost wages for time off of work this whole ugly issue would not have even made the newspapers. Yes, the old guy should not have reached for the kid, no reason to if the parent was still there. Yes, the old guy should not have said he’d sue. Maybe he was having a bad day who the heck knows..

One thing I’d like to know -- has this 60 year old guy ever sued previously for any wrongdoing by anyone? If so, what has been the frequency of these lawsuits? If not and it is the first time, I’d like to know more what actually triggered this action.

[Jack M]

Jack,

Good answer.. It seems you and I are not that far in our assessment of the overall issue.

Thanks, agreed.

I thought earlier you were saying sh&t happens / accidents happen without any recourse or consequences while on the hill.

No, of course not. If someone is clearly negligent to the point of endangering others, there is recourse. However I don't believe a 7 year old on a crosscut is capable of that.

This is from your statement “If you can't accept that people/kids are possibly going to crash into you on the ski hill, do something else.“

Well, to a point, yes. If you are in a physical condition where a slight bump that would be inconsequential to most skiers will put you in the hospital with a 75-large tab, you either need to find another sport or accept that risk. My grandfather accepted it until he was about 84, then hung it up.

From what I've read I don't think what happened is outside the realm of accidents to be reasonably expected at any ski hill. Sure, nobody should have to expect or consider the possibility that a kid is going to schuss straight down a steep crowded trail, but that's not what happened here as far as I can tell.

[tex1230]

wow - welcome back to my favorite doc from texas! how you been?

[skatha]

My husband got sued as a result of his accident in 2005-he was charged with running a red light. Me with my trauma experience said-no way!

1. His Volvo was totalled as was her truck. The force of the collision was more than what would have happened if she was just starting from a stop and he was going 35.

2. She chose not to have her child in a carseat and his injuries(the child) were the result of her action

3. There was no way the witness saw the accident from where she was listed as having stood.

It came out nearly 2 years later in the deposition that the witness saw my husband with the green-which, of course meant this woman who sued him went into her lawsuit knowing that she was in the wrong completely. It's not the lawsuits sometimes, it's the balls of some of these people who sue.

If this guy could reach for the child, grab him, and threaten to sue him-there's no way his shoulder was out of joint. I had to crawl to where ski patrol could pick me up to load me for the trip down the mountain when I originally dislocated my shoulder and it took an excruciatingly long time to get there. Then I had to get onto the gondola with 2 people helping me walk. I've had natural childbirth and I'd do it again if the choice was that or a shoulder dislocation. As I told the nurse at the clinic at Park City who told me the two were similiar-they hand you a baby when you're done with natural childbirth!

[skatha]

wow - welcome back to my favorite doc from texas! how you been?

Better!

How are you, tex?

[C5 Golfer]

This post reminds me of a story in a small town in the midwest -- it was so small in population that there was not enough law business to keep its only newly graduated lawyer to stay so he thought about moving to the next big town. But then another lawyer moved to town and there was now enough business for both of them to stay and keep busy.

[LeeW]

I seriously hope a major dose of Karma happens to Jim Chalet, the slime sucking bottom feeder who makes his fat living off of this lunacy. And all his ilk.

Im surprised you know about this lawyer. Initially, I thought the same thing, years ago. When I did a research on his profile, its somebody you'd want to consult with when it comes to legal tangles with ski area -- chalatlaw.com

he has impressive resume.

yes, it sucks to have him on the opposide side of the panel if you were the defender. in other words, he's done his homework. but i guess its not easy being a lawyer these days.

I feel sorry for the old man, yes, but what he did (as what the media say, per se), it was totally uncalled for.

The way I see it, its a grey area. Have you read about the Parson versus Vail case ? Pretty f--ked up situation.

[C5 Golfer]

Are you telling me that if my kid happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time on the hill and happens to bump into Mr. Glass that we're out 75k? Well that's not acceptible risk to me! I guess we'll just quit skiing! F#@k!

I refuse to believe we now live in a society where in order to participate in a sport, I must accept risk of lawsuit, but the other guy doesn't have to accept risk of injury. That would be complete bull.

Jack, sorry for the late response to your statement above..glass of wine and dinner got in the way.

It seems that no matter what we do skiing, hang gliding, biking, boating to waterskiing we could inadvertently hurt an innocent bystander or observer and due to our plentiful lawsuit happy attorneys, one can get easily sued for an obscene amount of money. If we take the average American guy in his early 20s that does not have much net worth this suit may not mean much since you can’t get too much blood out of the proverbial turnip. But as we age and have families and add to our net worth this could lead to life altering changes if you are the one being sued. For this reason a couple of years ago I took out a 2 million dollar Umbrella Policy thru Allstate which is also my auto and home insurance company. This would also help if, god forbid, I were to be at fault in an auto accident and my liability exceeds my auto policy limits then this Umbrella Policy would kick in. Just a thought – then issues like this skiing accident may not hurt my finances if it were to happen to me. At 60 I am too old to start over again and go back to work.

[willywhit]

Im surprised you know about this lawyer. Initially, I thought the same thing, years ago. When I did a research on his profile, its somebody you'd want to consult with when it comes to legal tangles with ski area -- chalatlaw.com

he has impressive resume.

yes, it sucks to have him on the opposide side of the panel if you were the defender. in other words, he's done his homework. but i guess its not easy being a lawyer these days.

I feel sorry for the old man, yes, but what he did (as what the media say, per se), it was totally uncalled for.

The way I see it, its a grey area. Have you read about the

Parson versus Vail case ? Pretty f--ked up situation.

sounds like a Saul Rosenberg "Punitive Damages"

he hurt me with his words

then my shoes fell off

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[queequeg]

I carry $1M general liability insurance for the express purpose of protecting myself from these ****tards. I have it from my employer, and also from USAA. I cant remember how much it costs me, but I do recall it being shoulder-shrugging cheap.

[John Gilmour]

The accident occurred on a cat track... I'd like to know what the cat track looked like and see footage of people trying to make it through the cat track.

I've seen badly designed cat tracks before where snowboarders are faced with two choices on semi crowded days

1. Go as slow as the skiers who calmly pole through crowded cat tracks prudently and carefully and have to unclip to push at points- leaving themselves at the most vulnerable of positions with one foot in and one foot out. Leaving yourself at risk (few do this...)

2. Wait for a gap to form before bombing into the cat track area so you have enough speed to clear the cat track without unclipping. IF YOU CAN see the entire cat track.

IMHO if the collision came near the end of the cat track.. I would assume it must have been a lower speed collision if it was the type of a cat track where you can barely make it out without unclipping if you go in with some speed. Then the kid barely hit the guy... if it happened early in the cat track the kid was probably bombing it- and a seven year old does not have the skill to bomb pass skiers in the close quarters of a cat track...his parents should not allow that.

In Aspen on Ajax (Aspen Mountain) there is a run called Kleenex corner which is where I face this decision every run. It has a blind corner too.. and you can not see everyone that has fed into it. If you unclip and push past the corner... you run the risk of others (Skiers and snowboarders alike) running into you when you have a boot out..

Now Aspen Mountain for a long time did not allow snowboarding.

I do feel that mountains that do nothing to prevent problems that are foreseeable by recutting a trail to give better lines of sight and perhaps a better pitch to prevent skiers and snowboarders from being tempted to dangerous speed into a cat track....are putting themselves at risk of liability.

I doubt seriously that Aspen Mountain has even thought about addressing this problematic cat track where nearly every skier funnels through several times a day. They should do something about it because of mixed skier and snowboarder traffic.

If you have a poorly designed roadway that causes tons of fatal accidents.. is it the drivers who are to blame or the roadway engineer?

(As a weird aside to this...I was sponsored once by City Skateboards in NYC and the owner of the shop designed the Hutchinson River Parkway in New York.. which was infamous for poor drainage during fall foliage leading to floods and skidding on wet leaves and a multitude of accidents when you would unexpectedly hit a 6 inch deep puddle around a blind turn. The roadway could have been designed differently to reduce or eliminate these flooding issues. but it wasn't- the lesson to be learned was avoid this road at all costs during rainy foliage days.... or if you hit someone that slid out in front of you for going too fast or having bald tires... you would get assigned being at fault.)

I think that children today do act more irresponsibly than in decades prior. Parents often don't take the time to explain things to their kids.. How do I know this?

WELLLL>>>>>I was one of those kids who got into trouble because my parents didn't take the time to explain things to me. If I did something wrong and got away with it with just a mild scolding it wouldn't stop me from doing it again. (I lived in a high rise (18th floor) and the local 5 and 10 sold 100 water balloons for a dollar.) I chucked them out of the windows for years even after being busted several times by my mom.

It wasn't until I was confronted by a lawyer that was barely splashed by one that threatened to sue me to replace a $2000 suit that I stopped.

I never tossed water balloons out the window again- and for once I got to see things from the side of the recipient. It was big turning point for me. Strangers had faces. I had to talk to someone I wronged.

My bet is that the kid was bombing a cat track and was on a long traverse. he was tired as most 7 year olds get after the middle of a run. I bet he hit the guy and what really pissed the guy off ...was that the kid just tried to take off without apologizing or asking to see if the elderly guy was uninjured- I bet it if he had had better manners, apologized profusely and tried to help the man up he might not have been sued. But acting like a hit and run kid must have infuriated the injured guy.

In 2004, After hitting 3 trees I was still able to unbuckle my bindings, crawl back to the ski slope with a broken leg and a dislocated shoulder... so I bet the old guy was hurt in the accident and was still able to grab the skinny arm of a 7 year old. It is a lot worse to fall on the flats of a cat track than a hill (which is like falling on a slide).

Will this boy be more polite in the future after the lawsuit.. I bet he will be.

I've been hit before by hit and run skiers...I was sitting on the side of the trail resting before a big drop. There was an entire open slope, no reason to spray me with snow...a 16 year old girl on skis lost control while stopping in front of me(1989) slashed right through a $350 Marmot jacket, through a $150 fleece and into my arm and took off without asking if I was Ok. She just wanted to get the hell out of there and did not care about my injury.

I had ski patrol get her, made her apologize to me, and had her watch a safety video and had her pass cut for the day. I needed $400 in stitches. I did not sue her because I knew I would not have any permanent damage from the collision other than a scar.If she had permanently damaged my spine, head, shoulder..etc ..well I might have considered suing her. She made no attempt to avoid hitting me.

From the other side-

I was at Killington on Rams Had. It was the end of the Day. I had hit snowmaking pipes going about 50mph a week earlier and was assessing what bodily pains I still had on freestyle board. End of the day 4:35 pm.

I waited for nearly everyone to go down the hill so I could carve some long arcs and see if I was hurting. Much to my surprise I was fine! So I started charging down the empty slope and did a massive heelside and ended up going up hill at about 10mph.

A lone skier with the whole slope to avoid me... (Rams head is a wide one- and since has been turned into a slow skiing zone) hit me- he was doing about 35mph. I was the "downhill skier". and with my repaired right shoulder (which miraculously stayed intact due to a super surgeon) and my face I braced for the impact- I hit his arm and chin.

He went airborne- Madd Mike and Tina watching in horror as he pivoted in mid air with his left arm flapping like a wet noodle in the wind (both bones broken) he slammed into the snow, broken arm, broken nose, split tongue and chin. Me I smashed my left knee and it was injured. I immediately asked if he was okay apologized for the unfortunate accident even though I was the downhill skier. (Tina and Madd Mike just split from the scene... :( hmmm).

I then, on my bad knee, unclipped, put the guy over my shoulder and walked him down the hill to Emergency services where he was treated. We both sat there as we were examined and he thanked me for not leaving him alone on the hill. My jacket was drenched with blood from his nose. Yhere was no talk of sueing.. it was an accident with an apology from both sides and two people worked together to make the best of it.

There is a right way to go about things when accidents happen. This kid did not do the right thing.

When I was little in first grade my Mom told me to always help elderly people if they fell over or needed help walking or crossing the street or carrying groceries. That was in New York City, when NYC was a wild place full of muggers (today parents would tell you not to go near an old person because you could be kidnapped)

I think my Mom was right.

I also think the old skier felt justified to sue when he wrote to the parents and his letter was ignored and he did not get an apology (were they afraid of admitting guilt??).

And if the kid won't ski anymore because he is afraid of being careless once again.. the kid is making the correct decision. Once he is older and feels like he is responsible and not reckless he will start skiing again- and as an adult he will definitely teach his kids not to "hit and run" and to apologize and help the injured when accidents happen.

If the kid was autistic or retarded, has etc... he gets a pass IMHO..but the parents are still liable for the kids actions. but frankly I know most retarded kids would have been very helpful and are good natured. Far more so than this child demonstrated as he tried to squirm away.

Who is really at fault? Even though I don't have enough info...I would say the ski area for not improving the cat track layout. If they were to look at ski patrol logs I bet they could find many similar collisions on the same cat track in close proximity. A cat track that encourages big differences in speeds between skiers and snowboarders in a confined space is poorly cut and should be recut wider or re-angled in pitch so snowboarders don't feel compelled to ramp up their speed. Vast differences in speeds in confined areas with people on differing gear typically leads to collisions.

________

Yamaha motif

[Guest]

Ah Kleenex corner. Yeah, fortunately it doesn't service any major pow runs and stays icy until late afternoon, else there would be more pileups there. I think for that very reason it's not that big of a deal for Skico.

[skatha]

In TX, there is something called the "homestead act"-it basically says the courts cannot take your house, your horse(car) and up to $50,000 in assets if you get sued. An alternative I've looked at, especially since I potentially can get sued at any time, is a "Family Limited Liability Partnership", which basically is the domestic equivalent of a LLP. The benefits there are your assets are considered to be in joint possession of your entire family, as defined by the legal wording of your family "corporation", and liability is shared among the family. In short, a plaintiff has to prove you, your spouse and your children were all equally liable in the question of a tort. If you hit the skiier but your wife did not, your wife is not subject to the judgment and she cannot be forced to pay claims in your behalf. Rather than getting a general liability policy for the max amount, I would recommend getting one for anywhere to 250G-300G and get an FLLP. The 250G amount of the policy would cover most medical expenses and your assets, if they exceed the amount protected by a homestead act(if you have one in your state), could be covered by the FLLP. Most of the tort reform passed recently in the states minimizes "pain and suffering" damages and these are what the lawyers draw on for their pay(up to 60% of the judgment). That can help individuals, too.

Sliding down a tilted surface with a reduced coefficient of friction on a board coasted with a substance to further reduce the coefficient of friction is inherently dangerous. We need to spread the word....

I was sued by a patient's family about 7 years ago. The woman fell out of her wheelchair and fractured her first cervical vertebra. She was in poor health with an advanced case of neurologic deterioration anyway and she ended up dying, most likely from complications of her underlying condition, although her fracture didn't help matters. I was getting deposed by the plaintiff's attornies

and they mentioned that I probably didn't have a lot of experience taking care of first cervical vertebra fractures-I surprised them by admitting I didn't because the first cervical vertebra is one of the vertebra broken during a hanging and it is usually an nonsurvivable injury. I was dismissed from the suit

[willywhit]

looks like this silly case will never see a courtroom.....

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20080117/LETTER/6841468

Letter: Eagle-Vail skier's father protests gag order request

P.S. I must not forget to thank the Pfahlers. If it was not for you we would not have had the opportunity to be in contact with so many wonderful, loving and supportive people. The faith in my fellow man that you stripped from me has been restored and then some by a great local, national and international community of skiers and people. Thank you.