Toeside chatter and skipping - why?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you're inclined to bend at the waist to fix the problem, I'm thinking you may already be too bent. It's easier to get your weight over the edge on heelside as your body is bending that way naturally. Toeside, you have to work to get that angulation.

[D-Sub]

It's like the whole board is skipping and bouncing. Usually I bend at the waist big time, put my hands down, and vibrate to a jolting stop. I've found a video from last year, I'll post some shots from that (or the whole thing). I'm pretty sure it's body position.

problem solved, imo.

and while I don't agree with "never put your knees together" (mine always end up together in heel turns, and so do a lot of the very, very good riders Ive seen) the idea that banging them together somehow makes the board arc has been argued and effectively disproven imo.

To me it sounds like you're leaning too much, forcing the board out of the turn on toesides. I have a nagging tendency to do this as well. I suspect that part of the reason we (you, me, others with this problem) might find toeside turns working better is that it's easier to "sit" on a heelside. Keeping your upper body upright, shoulders parallel, and legs out in front is much easier on heelside.

I find that when I focus on one facet almost completely, I make better turns. That one facet is keeping my shoulders parallel to the snow. How to do this?

On a toeside turn, lead hand (left for regular, right for goofy) toward lead boot cuff, trailing hand parallel to snow as if dragging on it, but not. This forces your shoulders into the correct position, and forces your upper body to follow. Form and function combine. Opposite for heel turns. Trailing (right for regular) hand reaches toward thigh/boot cuff (rail if you're flexible), lead hand (left for regular) elevated, parallel to snow.

Here are some pics that show this:

This one is almost leaning too much it seems, but still...

And here is Bryan Sutherland rocking a heel turn. I admire his style immensely.

Yes, it's a heel turn, but the concept is the same. Trailing hand could easily grab the rail if he wanted, and lead hand is skimming the snow. NOT because he reached to get there but because he is uber-compressed.

[D-Sub]

Interestingly enough, looking through the photos at

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/

it seems that the vast majority of "excellent technique" shots are heelside!

[D-Sub]

a good one illustrating entering the turn on toeside:

[D-Sub]

another good example (note knees together ;))

[D-Sub]

and another. Picture this fella in a slightly more aggressive mode, sunk a little lower in (compressed, not leaning). His left hand could grab his calf or boot, and his right could be parallel to the snow (along with his shoulders)

I'm trying to find the pics of STEPH, too.

[D-Sub]

Pat sent the "Core Four" article to me. This pic is from page 2:

[wavechaser]

I'll try to get a video if I can get on snow on Sunday and get a short shot of my setup too. I'm 6' 3", the 21" stance feels OK but I might try 20" just for kicks this weekend too.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the body position tho. I don't think my form is super bad but the video will tell.

Make sure the center of your stance is BEHIND the midpoint of the edge contact length, or no body position will make a difference...good luck! :)

[D-Sub]

Make sure the center of your stance is BEHIND the midpoint of the edge contact length, or no body position will make a difference...good luck! :)

What's wrong with being perfectly centered? Jack's setup articles describe centering, although some boards want to be ridden forward (MADD apparently?) and some behind (coiler?)

[wavechaser]

What's wrong with being perfectly centered? Jack's setup articles describe centering, although some boards want to be ridden forward (MADD apparently?) and some behind (coiler?)

Yo D, I explained this in an earlier post in this thread so I won't go over all of that now, but...perfectly centered is fine, forward of center is not...and he is not on a Madd. He is a fairly new carver so I feel some setback in stance, especially toeside, would be beneficial on the boards he is using. I was always taught, as a snowboard instructor and coach, to fix problems like this by FIRST making sure the equipment setup is correct, especially with a new rider - that is all I am suggesting, I clearly said that it may not be the problem. You can't fix technique problems on a bad setup. I've see new riders with the bindings mounted in the two most forward sets of inserts have this problem, that's all. Good luck Fastskiguy - hope this and or the video analysis helps! :)

-Rick

[D-Sub]

You can't fix technique problems on a bad setup.

damn fine point. From the ground up. Sorry if i missed your post earlier!

[inkaholic]

My attempt to help:

Try to lower your COG (bend knees more).

Make sure to set your edge well at the top of the turn, then you have a solid platform to stand on thru the middle and bottom of the turn where the g-forces are highest.

Don't "park and ride" meaning keep your feet moving through the turn. You can push your feet forward thru the turn thus adding more pressure to the tail near the end of the turn.

I know many are against it but for me and my riders, keep your knees apart and let them flex in the natural direction that your binding is set at. This keeps pressure on the tail and doesn't create any strange and sometimes painful angles in the knees.

Ink

[wavechaser]

damn fine point. From the ground up. Sorry if i missed your post earlier!

No worries - Fastskiguy is certainly not going to suffer for lack of information and help on this one! LOL!!

[wavechaser]

My attempt to help:

Try to lower your COG (bend knees more).

Make sure to set your edge well at the top of the turn, then you have a solid platform to stand on thru the middle and bottom of the turn where the g-forces are highest.

Don't "park and ride" meaning keep your feet moving through the turn. You can push your feet forward thru the turn thus adding more pressure to the tail near the end of the turn.

I know many are against it but for me and my riders, keep your knees apart and let them flex in the natural direction that your binding is set at. This keeps pressure on the tail and doesn't create any strange and sometimes painful angles in the knees.

Ink

Mostly good info in this thread FSG...but listen to this one...good stuff as always.

[canuckcarver]

excellent tips in here and i think those pics might just help out my posture on the slopes :biggthump

[mr_roboteye]

See, now I totally disagree with this. Never, ever bend your knees together. It does nothing except lessen the amount of room you have to form a solid base with your legs. You are effectively compromising your stability over the board.

Read my whole post. I guess you missed the part where I said "as a means of diagnosis, I don't recommend riding like this all the time."

Dave R.

[Fastskiguy]

Man, you guys are giving me a lot of info. Here's some still pics from last March from Breckenridge. Now I've improved....but I think you can see the alignment issue at the top of the turn. Things improve a little as it progresses, but getting into the turn better should help.

[Fastskiguy]

Man, you guys are giving me a lot of info. Here's some still pics from last March from Breckenridge. Now I've improved....but I think you can see the alignment issue at the top of the turn. Things improve a little as it progresses, but getting into the turn better should help.

picture 2

[Fastskiguy]

picture 2

So with this "less than ideal" entry, I'm thinking it could cause skipping by the time the board hits the fall line.

[D-Sub]

That first pic looks like you're planning on doing a pete rose into home! I think that's gonna be the source of your problems.

Where do you ride? Maybe you can get some one-on-one?

[Fastskiguy]

That first pic looks like you're planning on doing a pete rose into home! I think that's gonna be the source of your problems.

Where do you ride? Maybe you can get some one-on-one?

Wisconsin but the last two pics were on peak 10 at Breck. I get out west to Colorado or Idaho 2-3 times per year, usually summit co or the aspen area and the boise area and sun valley. Just got back from a 5 day trip to summit co last week and met Dave Kemp for a couple of runs, that was fun!

[Corey]

I'd had a similar issue and found I had too much weight on the front foot and bending at the waist.

A tip that helped me to stop bending at the waist was imagining holding a bag of something in your trailing hand. Work hard to keep that bag off the snow even in deep turns. It feels like you have your inside shoulder stupidly high but you don't - you'll be more like the photos D-Sub posted.

[NateW]

Looks to me like your upper body is twisted wrong in the first picture - try to aim your chest more in the direction of the nose of the board, rather than facing the snow. Keeping your trailing hand forward should help with that.

Also try leaning more on your front foot throughout the turn.

And then try leaning more on your back foot. :) See which helps more.

And double-check that you're not booting out, just to be sure.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

OK I read the first page of this post and D sub is the person<man>. Knees together all the time if you race for A living this might not apply. Most of us do not race so don't try to ride like them. IT IS NOT THE SAME! so just try what D-Sub And I think will work. Knees together and if I might add put the board on edge { more than you ever have way over } your trailing arm should be in front of your body { That will transfers the weight on the edge of the board and it will hold} you will see how it holds. Free Lessons at the Big Mountain MT or Heavenly NV . OK I did look at Page two. And Wavechaser hase A good point. This could be A new rider. The first thing he needs to do is trust the board {So much about riding is in your head} put it on edge{Bend knees not all waist} put the board on edge all the way over even if you don't recover see what it will do and keep doing it. When you get the feel of that you can start doing what we are telling you to do. Silver Bullet has good advice and A cool avatar. He can get away with his trailing arm being back because of the board angle. The more on edge the more forgiving . The snow will also help or hurt that style. If you are on hard pack{ East coast hard pack} your body must be in near perfect position to hold the edge. You can be doing A large number of things to make it chatter. If I could see you ride I can help you more.

[D-Sub]

D sub is the person<man>.

Actually, no. I am the android.

</man>