Hardbooting instructor in trouble

[Rob Stevens]

Stoked for you, Boris.

All it took was a little respect paid to you and you rolled right over... That's how the good managers do it.

As for CASI mandating a stance to beginners and their instructors, it's not going to happen. In freeride and alpine, stances are just too varied to make that call. We also would have a problem with schools wanting to use people who may only have an alpine board, or a physical limitation of some kind, keeping them at a higher stance. In the smaller schools, found in remote locations, you might have a dual-certified director teaching beginner snowboarders in his ski boots. CASI's not going to tell him he can't do this, because, as we all know, it still works fine and there are other problems that are more important to address (Like all the ones mentioned by David G).

[Neil Gendzwill]

The big problem ,as usual ,with a group this size was the split. I took the 4 anchors and had to cut the others lose with some pointers for their riding and info on how to get a refund.

What do you mean by the "4 anchors"? The 4 worst riders?

[twelsch42]

What do you mean by the "4 anchors"? The 4 worst riders?

I read it to mean the 4 who fell down the most.

[David Glynn]

What I meant was the four slowest. Three of those happened to also be the ones who fell down the most but it doesn't have to be that way. Sometimes it is just attitude. "Anchor" is just slang for the slowest in the group

and usually it's slower by a wide margin making for an obvious split in the group . It's not meant to be disrespectful but more of a matter of fact - to the point comment. Sometimes the anchor can be the most fun and teachable person in the group but still holding all the others back. It's just the way it is. If there had been only one or perhaps two anchors in the group I would have been tempted to offer the refund to them instead of the other way around. But it would be a real tough thing to do because to cut the poorest rider in a beginner lesson could really reek havoc on someone's self esteem and confidence and permanently turn them off to the sport and who knows what else. I don't think I could have done it.

[BlueB]

All it took was a little respect paid to you and you rolled right over... That's how the good managers do it.

Don't forget 5 EC runs on perfect snow, down my favorite black diamond, as another major factor for positive mood swings ;)

I thought it's fair to write few nice words when they deserve it. I don't want to leave impression that I just badmouth my school.

As for my feeling towards whole individuality of stance/footware issues, it's still the same. The rest of your post just proves me right.

Thanks for clarification on CASI's position.

Funny that you mentioned dual certification - as I finished my carving runs other day, the ski supervisor saw me in my boots and sent me of to help in the kids ski camp :D Back to my roots.

[BlueB]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we are back with this sad thread...

Quick flashback to the happenings in the meantime, to fill in the gap from the last post to today:

I completed CASI Level 2 on hard boots, got really good at riding switch, flat spins, ollies and the stuff, started jumping in the park pretty good too (minus the rails/boxes).

As the time went by, I managed to convince the supervisors to my point of view and with a bit of luck the Assistant Director lady gave up, so I ended up teaching on hard boots all of the last season. I settled on a 164 normal freeride board with super flexy plates angled at about 30/10 and hard boots, of course.

Fast forward to this season. Both old Snow Director and Assistant Director resigned, a young lady from admin side of Cypress got promoted to Snow School Manager and the Ski Superwisor lady got promoted to Snow School Assistant Manager. I got hired without any discussions of the gear, a young Assistant Snowboard Superwisor (on very good terms with me) got promoted to Snowboard Superwisor and a very experienced Level 4 instructor from Banf, who did his L4 on H/boots, joined the crew as the Staff Trainer. Life looked very good for a while! I carried on on hard boots, all students happy, smiling faces everywhere. To be honnest I got questioned about the boots by an Assistant Supervisor, but she got satisfied seeing my teaching setup (and actual teaching). Few weeks went by... Then, today, I got called in by the Assistant Manageress: no hard boots allowed, no discussion allowed, I had to sign a warning letter!? and got told to show up on softies or be fired. A Happy New Year mesage, I guess...

So here I am, scratching my head, thinking what the hell went wrong and what should I do next...

[John Gilmour]

Damian Saunders...

Total Hardbooter.... rode Koflach Valuga lites and Koflach Albonas.... ruled the freestyle gap and backflip world for a few years 1984-1987. His knees blew out after he married an adult model.... poor guy.

Tom Burt....

Hardbooter- arguably for nearly 2 decades had the gnarliest backcountry powder lines of any snowboarder. Most people would ride soft boots in pow.. Burt took it to another level where he needed the safety factor of support in hardboots.

Bruno Groovy- set records in hardboots.

I just tore my calf muscle + sprained both ankles a week ago... out for 5 months.. if I had been on hardboots...likely it would not have happened. I'm still in pain.. might need surgery. And Frankly...I think I'm a damn decent softbooter for freeriding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KIfgDSYPqw

Did this Layout in softies.. this video is likely around 35-30mph...I have been able to do this at about 70mph... in softies.

I tore my calf in softies last week at about 30-40mph. Hardboots would have saved me. I was riding incredibly supportive soft boots and soft boot bindings..

The current model... IMHO has changed snowboarding for the worse (unless rails and bails are your thing).

I thiink the "good" snowboarders on the hill in the 1990's are better than the "good" snowboarders you see today despite the 1990's guys being on crappy boots, crummy bindings and horrible snowboards with terrible flex patterns and side cuts... often weighing double of todays boards.

The 1990's kids had better skills. I think CASI does not teach solid freeriding skills except for powder and switch.

I think the current method cripples the learning curve and has people coming back each year for a lesson... so they can see some very very very marginal improvement.... And ski school can make cash...

The freeride boards of today carve exceptionally easily, and yet....few kids can carve on these boards at over 35mph.

Why...because something is wrong in the teaching progression. I'm sure we teach switch better than in the 1990's but IMHO that is a huge price to pay for the crappy riding I see out there today.

I say...teach in your hard boots... or better yet... teach your superiors for 5 days to ride hard boots.

Maybe then.... the kids at your resort might become better than the average crap scraper that CASI is producing today.

Put the average kid of today on a 1991 Kemper...I bet they could not even ride it. But put a rider from the 1990's on a 2007 Burton supermodel...and they would just tear up the slopes.

CASI works to get kids up and sliding (on boards that are too big or too small, gear that is set up wrong, in boots that don't fit...etc) ... but I don't think it has made better snowboarders.

At any given time at a resort.... no more than 5-7 percent of the snowboarders are actually riding in the park.. Why doesn't CASI teach to the needs of the 93%?

If you are a decent hardbooter you should be able to beat 98%-100% of the softbooters carving on hard snow.. you can demonstrate the safety a hardboot offers.

There was a time when a $375 hardboot seemed so expensive compared to a $125 softboot. But now...spending $400 is possible on softboots.. hardboots are more viable now than ever before.

If you live in a place that gets under 150 inches per season... you are riding man made snow...and likely.... you'd be better off in hardboots... I think that there are more ski resorts that get under 150 inches per year than over.

Give me your asst. magers telephone number... they just need more information before they make the wrong decision.

[tufty]

I think the current method cripples the learning curve and has people coming back each year for a lesson... so they can see some very very very marginal improvement....

I'm seeing a year-on-year decrease in boarders as a percentage of clients overall. More and more people are going back to skis - the "new" shaped skis and boots that are both stiff and comfortable are pulling people back to two sticks. I see far more people who can carve on skis than on boards, and that includes the instructors.

Had a chat with one of the ESF guys a week or so back, after seeing him ripping it up (frontside only, his backside turns were "skarved" at best). It seems that the ESF, at least in my resort, are also not only requiring softboots, but also requiring duck stance. No forward stance, however mild, is permitted. The instructors (or, at least, the ones who know how to ride) know that this is pure marketing bull****, but it's imposed from above. They're supposed to be teaching people to jump and flip, but there's probably under 1% of our "terminally medium" clientele who will ever go near a park, let alone start throwing big **** on the modules; the clients are left mounted uncomfortably on boards that are wrong for what they are doing, and wondering what all this hype about "snowboarding" is all about.

[dingbat]

New people, same message. This is coming from somewhere other than your school managers.

[Jack M]

Use softboots.

You aren't helping the alpine cause that much by only exposing people to hardboots and not the total alpine package with a race/carving board. You represent a minority even smaller than carvers - freeriders on hardboots. Your students probably just think your setup is just, well, odd.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I'm seeing a year-on-year decrease in boarders as a percentage of clients overall. More and more people are going back to skis - the "new" shaped skis and boots that are both stiff and comfortable are pulling people back to two sticks. I see far more people who can carve on skis than on boards, and that includes the instructors.

Had a chat with one of the ESF guys a week or so back, after seeing him ripping it up (frontside only, his backside turns were "skarved" at best). It seems that the ESF, at least in my resort, are also not only requiring softboots, but also requiring duck stance. No forward stance, however mild, is permitted. The instructors (or, at least, the ones who know how to ride) know that this is pure marketing bull****, but it's imposed from above. They're supposed to be teaching people to jump and flip, but there's probably under 1% of our "terminally medium" clientele who will ever go near a park, let alone start throwing big **** on the modules; the clients are left mounted uncomfortably on boards that are wrong for what they are doing, and wondering what all this hype about "snowboarding" is all about.

And yet they won't allow me startup any side program to help people get into carving even as I promote it and as they lose students and post lower and lower numbers.I even have a full size run of boards,bindings and boots.Insurance is not the issue.Miniscule political power(all politics is local afterall) and the refusal to open up to a different idea are the culprits.

BlueB,I eventually decided that teaching to the fashion and not the function or even the real desires of my adult students was no longer worth it.Now I just rip up the mountain, have tons of fun promoting carving/hardbooting all over the mountain and do freelance lessons for 'free' for people who buy the equipment from me.That, and I haven't had to use the bunny hill since my two boys have outgrown it.I love teaching,but skischools are just mini governments and take the fun right out of being an individual.It just became a choice of whether I could like what I do,and if not I could move on;so I did.

[bjvircks]

BlueB... has someone put a target on your back? It sounds sort of draconian to sit you down with a warning letter and a threat of termination without any prior discussion or back-channel rumblings. The higher-up folks that left the organization... were they ticked off about something when they bailed out? The folks that moved up... are they looking to advance themselves at any cost? Hard/Soft issue aside, it does not sound good.

[Rob Stevens]

Boris;

Do not give your directors number to John Gilmour. He has no idea what's going on there, or with CASI. We produce "crap scrapers"?! We start and finish with edge performance and to say any different shows he's never been exposed to our courses, first-hand. He should stick to his 70 mph (!!??) laid turns.

It sounds to me like this duckfoot thing is coming from above the school, seeing as how the song is the same, even though the leadership is different.

If I get permission from the rest of my board, I will intervene on your behalf, but I need to know who this is coming from. I don't want to waste my time speaking to someone who is not making the call.

The problem I will likely have stems from the fact that any resort is absolutely free to establish the theme for any program they offer. That is why you have our Executive Director, who works at Blue Mountain in Ontario, riding duck in hardboots and you getting called onto the carpet for a similar style in Vancouver.

[dingbat]

What brand gear does the mountain rent?

Who is the local rep. buddies with in upper management?

[Mxjas38]

Sacrifice a pair of old soft boots to make a pair of covers for your hardboots (Like Ice skate covers). Fasten some highbacks and two straps on them just for looks, and they will never know the difference.

Problem Solved!

[kieran]

leave, start up hardboot lessons. or at least ones where pupils use a forward stance.

[scrapster]

It can really stink to be in the minority.

I can almost bring myself to understand the soft-boot requirement (almost, but not totally). The duck stance idea mentioned above is just ludicrous. What company pedaling their softboot gear and image gives a hoot about whether you ride duck or not?!

Hopefully as more snowboarders begin to age, and want to hold on to their sport, some of this stupidity will change. I just started watching a DVD of Deeper that my boss bought me for the holidays. Jeremey Jones and T Rice ain't young'ns anymore. There's hope.

[Mr.E]

I taught on a freeride board and hardboots for a private school. Plenty of beginners and intermediate riders, and it was never an issue. Teaching skill and the ability to communicate are much more important.

Alternatively I made it as far as the first on snow session at Park City before being told I wouldn't be allowed to teach on hard gear- I walked.

I don't take kindly to folks telling me what physical comfort decisions I can make, and I certainly don't take well to employers with a "my way or the highway" approach- I always choose the highway and always benefit from the move.

[Race_Carver]

The Softboot arena seems to be more about marketing an "image" and function is secondary to that image. I remember seeing more softbooters who really knew how to carve back in the late 1990's than I do now. Which is too bad, because today's equipment is so much better.

I feel your pain. I was given the same ultimatum years ago for teaching. Hardboots + raceboard didn't fit the marketing image the powers-that-be were trying to sell at my mountain. So I quit. It was their loss, not mine. I moved on, and never looked back. I don't know what you situation is, so you have to do what is best for you.

[BlueB]

I believe that CASI has pretty solid progression program. Otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time and money on being the member and doing the courses (I do not plan to stop at L2). Before certifying to L1, I had very little idea how to teach an absolute begginer. At least not how to teach effortless and safe. I thought myself from scratch, I kinda just decided ok, I'll ride this thing nose down, no sideways skidding and I'll turn it like I turned the skate as the kid or like I ski. It worked for me, but it doesn't for people without similar background or physical abbility. Scooby survived my teaching before CASI and he's a pretty good carver now. However, I think knowing what I know now, I could have saved him few bruises...

CASI program is based around freeriding. That component comes back on all 4 levels of certification, weather it's just cruizing the groomers or zip-lining the 2xBlack moguls. Frestyle and carving play a part, but freeriding is the core.

Finally, CASI doesn't prescribe the stance, or the "footware", at least not in the official policies. All they want us to do is the propper body alignment with the stance angles. Techinique is the technique and sound fundamentals apply to all styles of riding.

[BlueB]

Boris;

Do not give your directors number to John Gilmour. He has no idea what's going on there, or with CASI. We produce "crap scrapers"?! We start and finish with edge performance and to say any different shows he's never been exposed to our courses, first-hand. He should stick to his 70 mph (!!??) laid turns.

It sounds to me like this duckfoot thing is coming from above the school, seeing as how the song is the same, even though the leadership is different.

If I get permission from the rest of my board, I will intervene on your behalf, but I need to know who this is coming from. I don't want to waste my time speaking to someone who is not making the call.

The problem I will likely have stems from the fact that any resort is absolutely free to establish the theme for any program they offer. That is why you have our Executive Director, who works at Blue Mountain in Ontario, riding duck in hardboots and you getting called onto the carpet for a similar style in Vancouver.

Rob,

I really appreciate the offer for help. I can use all the help I can get right now.

Duckfoot hasn't been mentioned yet, only the boots and bindings, after I've proven to teach on a "normal" looking board and flat angled stance. I do not think I want to go back to softies and damage my feet further. Besides the previously existing issues, I developed an extra bone spur from using softies in '07 '08.

Anyways, if you are willing to talk, there are only few people: Snow School Manageress (probably not even from teaching background), Snow School Assistant Manageress (skier, proven BIG ego). Above them, I guess only Resort Executive Director... I can send you the names and numbers, off line, if you wish. I wish to feed you a bit more detail, as some allegations vere made about the initial terms of my contract, which are just not true. Should I use Bomber mail? I think I have your other work's contact details too, but don't want to start spamming that address without your permission. Or, if you wanted to contact me:

boris at blueb dot biz

six04 six57five733

John and other Bomberites,

Thanks for the offer, but I wasn't really planning to publicize the names and numbers of the Cypress management, yet. Unsolicited nagging can cause more harm then good. If I ended up fired, I might decide to let the hell loose ;)

All the people inclined to help, the best you can do is one of the following:

- Inquire about hardboot/alpine snowboard lessons. As the operator would be clueless, insist that you know it can be organised and ask to speak to someone who knows.

- Book (or express intention to book) a private lesson and request Boris (me) as the instructor.

- If you recieved formal or informal trianing from me, or got help by advice on technigue or gear, drop an email to Cypress Snow School and tell them how wonderfull I am :D

In other words, we'll take the "positive reinforcement" approach. Thanks!

[jjfarbs]

Teaching beginners or even intermediate riders at h/b angles is just wrong. You can not show them what proper alignment is. You are doing nothing for your students. jack is right - the sport is still called snowboarding as far as I am concerned

[BlueB]

Teaching beginners or even intermediate riders at h/b angles is just wrong. You can not show them what proper alignment is. You are doing nothing for your students. jack is right - the sport is still called snowboarding as far as I am concerned

You missed the info on my setup... I teach on propper freeride board, angles 30/10, so my propper alignment is 20 degrees to the longitudinal axis of the board. I ride the same angles whan I'm on softies, so it's pretty irrelevant...

Rob himself rides 35/-5 or 30/-5, so his allignmet is +15 to +12.5. Is he wrong too?

[John Gilmour]

I'm seeing a year-on-year decrease in boarders as a percentage of clients overall. More and more people are going back to skis - the "new" shaped skis and boots that are both stiff and comfortable are pulling people back to two sticks. I see far more people who can carve on skis than on boards, and that includes the instructors.

Snowboards are great for powder and crud powder... they work well in heavy snow.. they can go fast and carve extremely hard....

BUT... ridden duck..you can not involve your rear quadicep in a heelside carve as effectively has if ridden with a forward stance. You are a weaker rider (except in Deep POW where edge pressure is not required) Often an instructor will point to the "pros in the movies" tearing up the backcountry.

If I had to ride snowboards ONLY Duck...or was only taught duck... I WOULD STOP SNOWBOARDING (What some ski schools would love for all snowboarders to do)...I'd go buy Kessler skis or Palmer PO 2 skis (designed by Kessler made in the Head Factory) or if I wanted a comfortable and high performance ski to return to skiing after snowboard carving for years.. I'd buy the Virus centurion ski.

We have some skiers running ski school (that often have learned to do both sports but greatly prefer skiing and the higher $$$$ student taht pays for private lessons- takes them on heli trips etc...) that don't like snowboarders and would rather see them confined to parks and certainly not on their steeper carving runs (as that is what an aging ski pro is left to do after bumps have chewed up his knees).

-Yes they exist... in bars... I've talked to skiers...who upon glancing at my hardboots think I am a skier.. they talk fondly of when snowboards were not allowed on Aspen (now open to riding), and of Alta and Deer Valley, and of Taos(now open to riding) - Mad River Glen does not allow snowboarding but like Alta... it is not really set up well for it anyhow. I also taught skiing and snowboarding... most skiers would prefer us to keep to our snowboard park terrain.

...And we have Freestyle snowboarders running the snowboard program that know little about carving (yes they can carve.. at sub 20mph) and have mid performance carving skills so they would rather push snowboarding into the park where they can get respect for landing tricks and jumps.

These snowboard instructors often can't teach DEEP carving effectively... because most of the time.. they try to apply duck progressions to carving.

Carving in softboots is not a progression.... not even like in hardboots. IMHO Carving in softboots at speed is a full commitment to an abruptly changed paradigm.

You don't have the support of a hardboot and hard binding and firm flex and GS sidecut....

You have (in a softboot set up as compared to a hardboot set up) essentially..an overly wide very soft board with a slalom sidecut and a tail with an extreme tendency to washout heelside with a nose that is far too torsionally soft to aggressively initiate a carved turn. To overcome these problems normally you would need hardboots to carve and plate bindings… plus…. You are set up too flat… wayyyyy tooo flat.

You end up with too much toeside initiation…and not enough heelside initation.

IFFFF you Force your students to ride duck…. you crush the ability to get a low powerful heelside carve. The rear ankle just can not bend enough biomechanically..and if you do… it puts it in a dangerous position.

So it takes a real commitment to dive into a turn to really carve softies at speed...and I don't mean Laying it out...

I say… teach students both duck and forward… then some.... (not all).... of the kids drawn to the park will go for duck. People not interested in the park will go for a forward stance. Terje Håkonsen (+21°/+9°) Victoria Jealouse, +21/ 0, Craig Kelly. +27/+9, Shannon Dunn +18 +3, Shaun Palmer Front 19.88° Back 7.33, did not ride duck.. So there is no argument for 100% Duck in the backcountry. All of these riders rode well in the Halfpipe….AND in the backcountry…Kelly, Palmer, and Jealouse all raced and did extremely well. Dunn spent more time in the pipe but still rode very forward.

Most of them were World Champions several times over… more importantly… their joints are still working well decades later….

Duck is ok but has it's limitations...just like a forward stance can limit riding switch like it prevented Terje Håkonsen (+21°/+9°) from qualifying first in the Mt. Baker Legendary Giant slalom riding switch... uh ooooops! I forgot he DID qualify first riding switch with a forward stance... riding switch with a forward stance means looking at pressures from the board perspective instead of only reversing your motions. It talks a bit of thought to sort it out.. more than some instructors want to explain to their students.

Riding in softboots is easy to learn. Carving in softboots at speed is not. Most people just bomb hills... and hit a few jumps here and there and scoot in and out of the trees. Having hardboots (as an instructor) can help introduce people to riding in a style that might interest them.

However, You MUST RIDE EXTREMELY WELL IN SOFT BOOTS to defend your position.

Personally I like switching back and forth so I work different muscle groups to reduce fatigue and injuries... not having hard boots to switch into can make you fatigued from day to day...

Last two seasons I rode hardboots for perhaps 25 days and softboots for 170+ days. I like the comfort and warmth of the softboots (easy walk to apres ski) and the extra challenge and terrain versatility. I like teaching people in either set up. I prefer teaching hardbooters because I can make incredible progress with them because they do not have to build up strength to execute maneuvers... they have the built in leverage of the hard boot.

I think it is important to have hard booters on staff. I would care much more about your teaching style than what boots you are riding. In fact...I've been hired to teach snowboarding before they have even seen me ride because they like my teaching style.

As a ski school... you bet I would want some of my instructors to know how to cross country ski, a few to know how to telemark, and a few who randonee ski..and a few who Inline skate too.. it all helps match skills to the student. I don't think a ski instructor would be hindered teaching skiing in a Randonee ski touring set up.

As for hardbooting hindering learning on soft boots.. I don't think anyone who for instance took a lesson From Lowell Hart in Hard boots or Eric Beckmann would suffer.

I always say… introduce people to all aspects of the sport- ask them what they want to focus upon…then teach people to be proficient at the area of the sport they will do the most (helps to prevent injuries). I find it difficult to believe that EVERY snowboarder regardless of age belongs in the Pipe/park/moguls no matter what the guys at CASI are smoking.

In deference to CASI... I just don't see more skilled riders coming out of that program. I was just watching carving progressions taught at Mountain High (the instructors were simply terrible...and they were being tested!) and some other progressions taught at Mammoth.. I just don't see them being effective...as compared to progressions I saw at Killington ( a ski school and Mountain I don't even particulary like) taught by Mike Nepolittano (spelling???) his school churned out decent riders to really really excellent amazing riders.. All the intermediate drills have changed and I think... sadly for the worse.

I've watched PSR crank out amazingly good students. He often is chastised for not following the model exactly- but then some of his drills are picked up as part of the National teaching model a season or two later.

It used to take about 2-3 seasons of lessons in the 1990s to consistently crank out a phenomenal snowboarder. Sometimes it was a single season or less.

Consistently I see people now who have been taking lessons for years...and they still suck. They can barely carve, can not deal with moguls, can't ride crud or trees, and ride like static paper doll cut outs without being dynamic. And ... its not like they aren't athletes.

The tradeoff?

...they can ride switch confidently duckfooted at 10mph.... hit a kicker switch and land a 180 7 times out of ten and a 360 perhaps one out of 11 tries.

[scrutton]

(in a softboot set up as compared to a hardboot set up) ..

You end up with too much toeside initiation…and not enough heelside initation.

I compensate for this by increasing the forward lean of the bindings, and moving the bindings physically closer to the heel-side edge of the board. Balances things out......