Binding angles

[Phil]

I was having a conversation with a race coach today about binding angles.

It is my understanding that guys who are racing, especially at the upper levels, are going with a little wider boards and lower stance angles. This makes sense to me for the better use of your ankles and for leverage.

Is there a general concensus?

[neil sunday]

Phil-

We (a majority) have been riding 53 degrees or so for many years now. you are correct with the wider boards (more stable) for example, my GS board is 21.5cm wide.

add to it, the fact that every racer is now on some type of lift/suspension system, and you can turn the angles down lower yet.

the schoch brother appear to be riding in the high 40's.

Gone are the days of 60plus binding angles for racers. the lower angles allow for quicker edge to edge riding. As well as riding "aligned" with your hips and feet allow for for power, compared to the days of old when twisting your body to face straight down the fall line was the hot ticket.

[boostertwo]

Phil-

...lower angles allow for quicker edge to edge riding.

I don't dispute that wider boards are more frequently used by racers, but I'm not sure I understand this statement. Wouldn't a narrower board (w/ resulting higher stance angles) allow for faster edge-to-edge transitions?

It seems to me one other reason that slightly wider boards are being used is that a lower stance angle allows for bigger and more powerful pivoting movements. While pivoting is generally detrimental to carving (as it can result in skidding, scrubbing speed), when the course requires it most successful racers are able to pivot their unweighted boards in the transition, and to 'lock on' to a carve to maintain a fast line. It has been my experience that lower angles are much better than high ones for these pivoting, 'leg scissoring' moves.

<img src="http://i4.tinypic.com/6t2o5cz.jpg" border="0" alt="Billy Bordy, Race to the Cup, Howelsen Hill, CO.">

You can feel this for yourself by standing up now, as you read this. Try standing with very high stance angles and then then try stepping your feet to move your legs through this pivoting move. I think you'll find that higher angles allow a smaller range of movement than lower angles. Lower angles also recruit stronger muscle groups and allow for further pivoting movement through using the knee as a hinge to 'sweep' the foot.

Not only does this result in quicker, stronger, accurate movements, it also results in better balance, as it seems that riders with extremely high angles have to make additional movements of the upper body to get the board around, resulting in imbalance and a jerky, edge-of-control look to their turns.

It seems that for these biomechanical reasons (larger range of movement from the ball-and-socket joint in the hip, using stronger muscle groups, and, when necessary, using the knee/ankles to further sweep the board) that slightly wider boards are more useful whenever the course requires pivoting moves. If you're free riding, lower angles are useful in situations where you might need to quickly, powerfully, and accurately pivot the board, such as bumps, trees, steeps, crowded slopes, etc.

[Rob Stevens]

With high angles the knees and hips are used to change edges.

With lower angles, a rider can involve the ankles, which are way quicker when it comes to shifting pressure across the foot.

Combine this with all the other points raised and you can see why this change has been taking place for years.

It's been a LONG time since I saw a race of any kind where there wasn't ALOT of pivoting going on. I think the last time I saw a unbroken, clean carve from top-to-bottom was Jaseys winning run in the World Champs from Italy many years ago. This was a single GS (the last of its kind on the World Cup) and utilized the whole run from side to side, with all of the terrain changes, banks and rollers. It was a beautiful run to watch, even in the free-carve sense.

Now, parallel GS makes it harder to avoid pivoting in order to create equal courses.

[Rob Smith]

really hurt my knees. The higher angles on a board require more knee angulation, like skiing. The pressure developed on a board (on my knees) is much greater than on skiis. For me, a wider board & lower angles = no knee pain & bettter riding!

[neil sunday]

booster,

a narrower board may allow for faster edge to edge transitions, but the trade off of stability is well worth it in a wider board. i'm not sure about the picture you're showing of Bordy running a wide line, other than to show the "float-feather-sting" technique of racing. keep in mind, the board he is on is a wide kessler. i guess this shows what you are explaining by the scissoring of the legs.-- something i thought was more of an upright, slalom technique, not a GS based riding style.

whatever the rationale, to remain on topic- the wider the board, the lower the stance angles, the faster and more stable you will be.

have a great day. i coach in vail one week a month- maybe we can get together sometime.

later-

Neil

[Phil]

Thanks for all of the replies, guys. This is pretty much in line with what I was thinking.

B2 - love the "recruit stronger muscle groups" comment. That will be my new buzz phrase - along with "does the tail wag the dog?" (You can read about that in a different thread later.

Thanks again for the input gentlemen.

[Dave ESPI]

FWIW, I rode for years on a soft board with turned up angles in an agressive stance and ran 40 front and 32 rear with Burton 3 strap bindings on my twintip rozzi.Last week I also set my new bomber plates at this.

http://a733.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/127/m_50b4c3aefa765a67fbc01d74329fb7e4.jpg

I rode it, but it felt awkward, so I changed my carve board to 54 front and 42 rear with 3 degree cant. I found this a far smoother of a transition while riding and requiring the hip and knee movements in conjunction with upper body counter leaning. It felt good to just sweep along the trails, and lay some edge, but gone was the edge control that I had with lower angles and I was experiencing toe drag.

A wider board will indeed be the answer and I'm sure will feel different as the switching edges from toe to heel has a larger "flat" ride area for me.

Booster, nice image :) now is my desktop wall paper:)

[philfell]

A beer for who ever can guess that rider in boosters pic.

[ursle]

good deal

billy

i'm not sure about the picture you're showing of Bordy running a wide line

[inkaholic]

A beer for who ever can guess that rider in boosters pic.

Phil,

That's the infamous Billy Bordy roundin' the gates before turning to the kite.

Ink

[patmoore]

I think I follow the wider board/lower angles concept but I just don't feel I have the same control as when I'm riding high angles. Two weeks ago I moved the bindings on my old 154 Hot Shine to lower angles and had a frustrating day. I lost an edge four times on heelside turns but don't know if it was just my crappy tune or a case of boot out. I switched to a 168 Volkl RT with higher angles and immediately felt more in control.

I also need some guidance on stance width and canting. My GS board has Burton Physics and there seems to be a built in cant. I have a sizable deformation of my right knee and had to have the bases of my new plug ski boots ground to correct an inward 5.5 degree lean. A couple of seasons ago John Gilmour was going to conduct a "dialed in clinic" in CT but it never happened. Is he still around? If not, who could provide me with some guidance?

[neil sunday]

Pat-

Switching from a 154 Hot to a 168 Vokl, and you'll feel much more "in Control."

As far as stance width goes-- for GS I personally ride 19.50 inches as centered on the board as I can get. At 5'7" I'm rather short, but even the taller guys I know are riding GS stances at about 19.50 inches to at most 20.25 inches. This stance allows for stability and power during the turning phases. I also set my angles at about 53 degrees on my GS board. I could probably take them down lower, since I am putting them on the Hangl Plate, but feel comfortable, stable and strong at 53 degrees.

For canting I ride as flat as possible. If you have knee issues, you may need to adjust your cants for comfort. I add heel lift on my rear foot, and that's about it. This adds some power, and puts the rear leg in a better riding position for turning.

Good luck. I only put the GS specs here for now, but get GS boards dialed in before you attempt to do anyting on the SL sticks.

[Phil]

Pat,

Are you riding in those ski boots? This negates the whole discussion IMO.

You do not have the same movement in ski boots that you do in sb boots. Ski boots are made for the lateral support and, IMO, are more suited for higher angles. Therefore, the higher angles would feel better.

Of course, they are less suited to snowboarding and you would be much better on sb boots at lower angles, but I know that you race both, so you are using what works for your situation.

[patmoore]

Pat,

Are you riding in those ski boots? This negates the whole discussion IMO.

You do not have the same movement in ski boots that you do in sb boots. Ski boots are made for the lateral support and, IMO, are more suited for higher angles. Therefore, the higher angles would feel better.

Of course, they are less suited to snowboarding and you would be much better on sb boots at lower angles, but I know that you race both, so you are using what works for your situation.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. No, I ride in Head Strato Pros. I was only mentioning my ski boots because it was while wearing them that we discovered how far out of whack my right knee is.

[Dave ESPI]

Pat, I also am in HSP's. I found 3 degree cant in the rear and a bit more of adjustment for forward lean on the boot back(adjustment tab) was all I needed to really feel comfortable in my Bombers and Snowpro bindings. Check your stanse, you may be too open. I moved my stance one screwhole in and it was like night and day and really saved my shins a lot through the rough chop.

HTH.

[Rob Stevens]

Pat:

How about switching to the longer board with the same, lower, angles?

With a lower angle stance on the short board, lateral movements that used to go edge to edge are now a little more tip to tail. On the short board, maybe the nose is getting more loaded up and you don't realize it.

As Phil said, regardless of boots, you turned with your hips from edge to edge with the high angles and now it's less hips and more knees and ankles. If you're ok with that, run the longer board and have at. If not, stay with what you rip on.

[patmoore]

Thanks guys,

I have a Mt. Dew Race Saturday. I'll experiment beforehand with the different setups you suggested. In any event, I think I'll move my Burton Race bindings to the GS board.

Pat

[patmoore]

Hey Rob!

Just noticed you're from Banff. I had dinner at Melissa's last Saturday night. Terrific meal.

We flew to Calgary to get introduced to my new grandson (9 weeks old) and headed for Lake Louise to watch the Women's Downhill. Conditions were still pretty scratchy but I understand you've gotten more snow since we flew out on Monday.

You live in a beautiful part of the world! Here's a photo I took at the Chateau at Lake Louise Saturday evening.

[boostertwo]

...I also need some guidance on stance width and canting....I have a sizable deformation of my right knee and had to have the bases of my new plug ski boots ground to correct an inward 5.5 degree lean...

IMO the key concept is to dial in the lift/cant of your boots so that it cradles the shaft of your lower leg as it feeds down into the boot cuff. This places you in a balanced starting point, and allows you to make subtle movements of the lower leg against the boot cuff to quickly deliver energy to the board.

The exact ratios of lifts and cants change with body type, and with stance width and angle.

I would recommend:

1.

Checking with a podiatrist/pedorthist about the inward 5.5 degree lean of your lower leg (does your lower leg tilt inwards from a past sports injury?). If this is caused by excessive pronating he can build you an orthotic to stabilize and support the foot, which should help you achieve a strong, balanced, 'neutral' stance on your board. It'd also help in your ski boots (which may need to be 'unground') and with other sports. As you seem to be interested in high performance in all of the sports you do, I'd be surprised if you haven't already done this.

2.

Only after you get a good foundation under your feet that is specific to your anatomy , I'd start to further adjust lift/cant on the bindings. IMHO the key concept is to adjust lift/cant so the shaft of the boot cuff cradles your lower leg as it feeds down into the boot cuff. Your exact lift/cant ratios will change depending on your body type, stance angle, and width.

For me, on narrow waist width boards (18 cm) my big feet require high stance angles (70/68) and in this stance my pelvis/hips are wider than the board. This positions my legs to 'feed in' to my boots from an outside angle, and thus I cant outwards. On wider boards, as my stance geometry changes, I find it better to go flat or cant inwards slightly (only at really low stance angles on wide powder/backcountry boards).

IMO the amount of lift/cant is also determined by stance width: more width, more lift/cant. You can feel this for yourself, by first standing in a relaxed snowboard stance with your feet fairly close together, and then progressively sliding them futher apart. If you keep your ankles stiff (as they would be supported in your snowboard boot), you'll soon feel the outside parts of your feet lifting up off the floor as your legs move through an arc.

<img src="http://i2.tinypic.com/80njxxx.jpg" border="0" alt="Your joints allow your limbs to move through an arc--a key concept in adjusting alignment on your snowboard.">

It can be helpful to start adjusting alignment on an absolutely flat surface (you can do this indoors). If you're in a balanced 'neutral' stance, you should not feel the boot cuff unevenly pressing/pushing your lower leg. It should snugly and comfortably cradle the shaft of the leg, allowing you to freely and easily make small movements of the feet and ankles to balance and work the board and to also effectively use the cuff as a 'handle' by which to control your board.

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2e3y4oz.jpg" border="0" alt="Jasey Jay Anderson, '09 Race to the Cup PGS, Copper Mountain, CO">

This should get you in the ballpark, but from there I'd suggest taking a tool out on the slope and running a 'balance lab' to further fine-tune your alignment for your particular stance angles and width. I've found it useful to include straight running on a very flat slope at a slow speed to feel if it is comfortable and balanced. I'll also include quick, repetitive edge-to-edge transitions, isolating movements of the ankles and knees to tilt the board. Whatever the task, I'm looking for a comfortable, balanced starting point and immediate, accurate response from my movements to control it (tilting, pressuring fore/aft, flexing/extending to manage the forces pushing against it, and pivoting/steering it).

<img src="http://i8.tinypic.com/8bdykxz.jpg" border="0" alt="Tyler Jewell, Race to the Cup, Howelsen Hill, CO.">

I'm no expert, but this has worked for me.

Mi dos centavos,

B-2

[patmoore]

Wow. That's a lot to absorb. I'm printing this out and taking it with me this weekend to try your suggestions. Interestingly, the photo at the bottom shows the rear foot in a pretty low angle.

I don't know the width of my board (it's in Vermont) but it's fairly narrow and I have large (size 11) feet. There is a limit as to how far I can dial 'em back but I will experiment.

I appreciate all the suggestions. Maybe one of these days I can break away for a short time and hook up with you guys for some constructive criticism.

BTW, if anyone finds themselves at Okemo Fridays, Saturdays, or Sundays, ask for me at the NASTAR shack. The course should be open by New Years.

[wavechaser]

Pat - you already got loads of good advice, so I'll just add one thing...make ONE adjustment at a time. Any more than that and you won't know which of the things you did worked the best! And keep notes! Also, after all the adjusting is done and you've taken a few runs on your final setup, at least for that day, tighten EVERYTHING down one more time...I speak from experience on that last one.

[philfell]

Alright I owe some beers. Billy can be a bit of loud mouth sometimes, but I think people here sometimes forget that he has a bunch of racing experience and there is a good sequence to prove it.

The bottom pic is of tyler jewell, you know the only US guy in the last olympic PGS. He is riding a typical world cup set-up.

[Rob Stevens]

Pat: Nice photo. It's a pretty amazing place. Hope you got some good turns and message me if you're back this way again. I need riding excuses.

Booster 2: Good read. Outward cant on high angles? It seems to be a good adjustment for the differences in the way the legs and hips lever against the edge, in alpine vs. "traditional" stances. 70 / 68 is pretty close... Your photo looks like more splay (good word Neil) is in play. I like the splay. A fairly high front angle, using the knee side to side to guide yourself on to edge and a flat back foot, lining the toe up under the knee laterally, across the board for stability and power. The forward cant wants to keep your front knee to the centreline of the board, positioned for edge to edge transitions and the rearward one bucks the tendency to ride knees together, the way they want to in alpine.

I'm going to try that.

Your DaVinci has also reminded me to put the kick under my Noboard pad, front and back, for the extra wide surf stance

[philfell]

None of the world cuppers I know ride flat rear and lift/cant front.

Most ride with about 3 degrees differance between front foot and rear.