Binding angles

[wavechaser]

Regardless, many ride flat rear, canted front.

Many also ride with more than 3 o variable in rotary angle.

Whether or not these elite racers rub elbows with given posters on Bomber online, there is a huge world of variation in stance angles, canting, etc., from team-to-team, rider to rider at the world cup level, outside the scope of any of our personal aquaintance.

Strangely, the variability (re: race equipment) seems only to have increased in the past 4 seasons, which might suggest more fine-tuning of hardware as the 'big picture' (board shape, flex) has stabilized.

We can see the same curve having been recently broached and surpassed, in competitive ski equipment trends, to the point where interface factors such as ski length, sahpe and flex are, once again, in flux.

It follows, logically, that a period of more radical race-snowboard length, flex and sidecut variation might soon follow, with an ensuing period of variability in stance angles, canting, etc.

William, are you a current or former racer? Just asking, as you are new to BOL - at least under that username. Not calling you out or anything, but just a friendly tip that, and you might already know this so forgive me if you do, Phil is coach of the Park City Snowboard Team and thus has easy and frequent access to US world cup team riders, among others. I wouldn't doubt what he says...at least that is my take on it. Happy to have you along for the ride! :)

[Phil]

Vlad?

[Bordy]

Regardless, many ride flat rear, canted front.

Many also ride with more than 3 o variable in rotary angle.

Whether or not these elite racers rub elbows with given posters on Bomber online, there is a huge world of variation in stance angles, canting, etc., from team-to-team, rider to rider at the world cup level, outside the scope of any of our personal aquaintance.

I personally know or have met 6 of the 10 athletes you listed. And have trained on the same team as a few, and raced some of them at some point.

Phil Fell may know all ten. And as a FIS coach looks at gear and knows who is on what.

Some of them have ridden the flat back foot in the rear in the past some might still. I would love to see photo proof of who is running what currently. requardless there are few athletes I know who have ridden the same set up always. When gear changes so do you.

I would love to see a acurate list of who is riding what. But cant and lift are to broad and personal to matter to everyone. Fin rides front foot lift and cant rear foot flat.

And if Bozzeto only has a 1000 points that means there is only one rusult on your current list. Is it fair to use a single race result to judge current top ten?

Also the Kessler I was riding in the Picture was old school 19 wide I have little feet so I was riding 54-51 also its on the pitch at howlesen(steep) and into a delay (you cant see the second gate).

My current set up varies based on board width my stance also varies based on board feel and 3to 6 degrees different, 3 degrees most of the time. My currentKessler PGS board is 20.8 wide i also have several sticks from 19-22 But my angles are always set by the board width

Becuase the new crop of PGS board have so much set back riding with a flat rear foot allows the rider to stand on the back foot a skill needed to track the new sticks unlike a lartge foward cant to move the rider forward like before on GS sticks to keep pressure on the nose.

BOL may be sheltered from some of the race world but there are a handful of us with the knowledge and back ground to stay connected.

We try damn hard to keep BOL posters in the know and on their A game.

[wavechaser]

2007 Weltcup Parallel Slalom results, top 10:

4 racers in the above list employ a flat rear/canted front stance configuration in most Alpine events.

Note the absence of US racers in the top ten.

We should all be at liberty to "doubt" anyone (including coaches) on anything, Jack, while bearing in mind that data, especially in the world of Alpine Competition, is irrefutable.

Hi again - I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn't calling you out, that you might already know who Phil is and to forgive me if you do, and that I (as in me) wouldn't doubt Phil (based on my experience with him, and that this is only MY take on this subject...and I'm not Jack. But thanks for the data. :)

Edit: ...just saw Bordy's post. Thanks again for the real world info Bordy. Why do I feel a storm coming on???

[Bordy]

There is lots of info I agree with from william blake (fun if it was vlad) but There are a bunch of guys here with real world experance.

Enough to share the same info as always The best thing about your stance is just that......Its your stance. There are some simple outline but every thing else is up to you. Its a snowboard tilt it on edge and keep your balance. If I can do it backwards anyone can do it foward as long as your boots don't drag( or arn't to extreme) and you feel good.

When you get to the point that your stance matters there will by guidance from your peers. If you get to the point were your stance need to shave time you'll have a coach to help.

Guys that have trained, traveled, and competed together hang out here.

Like Trappy, That kids going to make it! everyone here better be nice to Trappy or I'll sick Michelle on you!!!!!

[Bordy]

Which 2? When and where? For what team?

[wavechaser]

I think I can guess who "williamblake" is....

Chef Boy-Ar-Dee? ;)

Seriously though - cool to have you contributing!

[boardman73]

sounds like a pissing match to me!!!

[philfell]

Hey it could be, I haven't looked at all the set-ups closely this year and haven't been around many of the euros yet this season. Next time Jasey is at an event I'm at I'll pay more attention to what he is on. Last time I looked at Biver's set-up he wasn't riding like that either, but things do change.

You guys shouldn't come down so hard on the guy, there are many, many different set-ups out there. None of the people I know personally on the World Cup are riding the set-ups like William is saying, but that is very far from saying no one is. I very much agree with one thing that has been said, "We should all be at liberty to "doubt" anyone (including coaches) on anything", if we don't than things get stale and progression stops.

[boardman73]

amen and trenches be with u !

[patmoore]

Hi folks. I've been following the thread but not contributing because frankly my level of expertise is WAY below anyone else's here.

I did want to report back that I removed the rear cant (which had canted the foot toward the center of the board) and moved both bindings as close together as possible. I felt more comfortable on the board than I had in some time. I also experimented with lower angles but it just didn't feel right. I got dumped on my butt on four consecutive heel side turns with those angles so maybe bootout was a factor. I'm riding a 168 Volkl RT GS board (don't know the width) and I have size 10 1/2 feet.

As further experimentation, should I try moving the cant plate to the front foot? And I'm going to really show my ignorance here. Should it be canted to tilt the foot toward the middle of the board or the nose?

[Rob Smith]

What are we doing up at this hour? I'm 53!

[wavechaser]

Hi folks. I've been following the thread but not contributing because frankly my level of expertise is WAY below anyone else's here.

I did want to report back that I removed the rear cant (which had canted the foot toward the center of the board) and moved both bindings as close together as possible. I felt more comfortable on the board than I had in some time. I also experimented with lower angles but it just didn't feel right. I got dumped on my butt on four consecutive heel side turns with those angles so maybe bootout was a factor. I'm riding a 168 Volkl RT GS board (don't know the width) and I have size 10 1/2 feet.

As further experimentation, should I try moving the cant plate to the front foot? And I'm going to really show my ignorance here. Should it be canted to tilt the foot toward the middle of the board or the nose?

Hi Pat - you can test for boot-out by putting your boots in your bindings at home, on carpet preferably, and leaning the board over with your hands in the boots, while flexing the board as if in a carve. Remember that the snow, unless super hard, will be a little higher than the carpet because you'll be cutting down into it a bit - but gives a good indicator of whether boot-out could be a problem. My feet are 10.5-11 and I use 51f/48r angles on my GS board, with a 51 cm stance, but the waist width is 21 cm...I'm pretty sure your Volkl is probably narrower (190-195?). Never seen anyone cant the front foot towards the nose, but as Phil points out above, doesn't mean it can't be done - experiment and keep taking notes! Nice winter we're having up here so far huh?

[ursle]

I did want to report back that I removed the rear cant (which had canted the foot toward the center of the board) and moved both bindings as close together as possible. I felt more comfortable on the board than I had in some time. I also experimented with lower angles but it just didn't feel right. I got dumped on my butt on four consecutive heel side turns with those angles so maybe bootout was a factor. I'm riding a 168 Volkl RT GS board (don't know the width) and I have size 10 1/2 feet.

As further experimentation, should I try moving the cant plate to the front foot? And I'm going to really show my ignorance here. Should it be canted to tilt the foot toward the middle of the board or the nose?

"moved both bindings as close together as possible"

I was on 3 168 renntiger rs's for years at okemo, always had the rear binding all the way back and adjusted the front to 18.75 from it, you may be dumping because you are now to far forward on the board IE in front of the midpoint of the scr of the board, but playing around tweeking is the way to learn what works

"As further experimentation, should I try moving the cant plate to the front foot? . Should it be canted to tilt the foot toward the middle of the board or the nose"

so's we're on the same page here, the binding can tilt forward or backward

and it can be canted to the sides, so you want to experiment by putting the (tilting)plate under the front foot, most people tilt the front foot to the rear and the rear foot to the front, I run the front flat and the rear tilted toward the front, but I cant both feet outward "alot"

If my bindings are flat not canted outward and I'm on my rear edge I'm stuck there, so I cant outward, front foot and rear foot... more and more till I find the spot that allows me to transition from my rear edge to my front edge and back with balance, I ride extremly thin boards (14.1,15.1,15.2)

love my demon upper body armour

www.suburbansport.com

[wavechaser]

Pat, you might know this already, but most manufacturers put their inserts equidistant from what they consider the ideal "center point" of the edge contact length - sometimes centered lengthwise on the board, sometimes "setback" a bit. So if your bindings are in the sets of insets closest together you are probably fine as far as not being too far forward on the board (but riding an awfully narrow stance!) - likewise if you had them mounted on the inserts that are furthest from one another, or the set in between (if you have a six-pack...inserts, not beer). Having said that, I always measure and mark (with Sharpies) to find the center of my edge contact length, the center of my stance width, and compare the two to see if I'm set back or centered on the edge contact length. Make sense? Always good to establish a baseline before making adjustments so you know where you are going and where you have been. The only time I drop my rear binding back more (i.e. more setback) is freeriding in pow, or racing in soft (but not mushy) snow. Again, just my .o2 if it helps.

[BadBrad]

Hi folks. I've been following the thread but not contributing because frankly my level of expertise is WAY below anyone else's here.

I did want to report back that I removed the rear cant (which had canted the foot toward the center of the board) and moved both bindings as close together as possible. I felt more comfortable on the board than I had in some time. I also experimented with lower angles but it just didn't feel right. I got dumped on my butt on four consecutive heel side turns with those angles so maybe bootout was a factor. I'm riding a 168 Volkl RT GS board (don't know the width) and I have size 10 1/2 feet.

As further experimentation, should I try moving the cant plate to the front foot? And I'm going to really show my ignorance here. Should it be canted to tilt the foot toward the middle of the board or the nose?

That's interesting, because I recently did the opposite. I was using stance widths of 16" and 17" because they were the designed center stance widths of the boards I was riding (a 156 UltraPrime and 156 Alp). I set the bindings with no cant and just a tiny bit of front toe lift and rear heel lift. I recently bought a Prior AWD 164 and noticed the trend here for wider stance widths based on shoulder width or ground-to-knee height so I set it up with a 19.3" stance width, which is close to the center stance width on that board. When I stood on the board at this width I felt a lot of pressure on the inside of the rear boot cuff, so I intalled a 7-degree cant/lift on the rear foot which feels a lot more comfortable and natural to me.

As far as setback, I just go with what the board was designed for. I think that is 1.5cm on the Burtons and 2.5cm on the Prior.

[wavechaser]

I coached two of the listed athletes, and several of their teammates.

But what would I know?

Hey william - what would the advantages of front cant and rear flat be? What board type and setback, if any, are your riders using. Is that setup for a particular course type or condition - or rider style?

[patmoore]

"moved both bindings as close together as possible"

I was on 3 168 renntiger rs's for years at okemo, always had the rear binding all the way back and adjusted the front to 18.75 from it, you may be dumping because you are now to far forward on the board IE in front of the midpoint of the scr of the board, but playing around tweaking is the way to learn what works

Thanks for the suggestions. Will you be at Okemo this season? If so, look for me at the NASTAR course. I have to do the pacesetting on skis but can switch to the board after that. I'd love to have you look at my setup and make recommendations.

love my demon upper body armour

www.suburbansport.com

Glad you like it. We have only one left in a medium if anyone is in the market.

[patmoore]

What are we doing up at this hour? I'm 53!

I've fought RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome) since I was 19. I'm now 61 and medication helps a lot but there are still sleepless nights.

[patmoore]

Thanks Wavechaser and BadBrad. I'm jotting down everyone's suggestions and will keep trying different approaches.

I'm presently using Burton Race Plates flat front and rear but had been using Burton Physic Step Ins until recently. The Step Ins came with a cant plate that I had mounted under the rear foot. It caused the the foot to angle forward and inward. I already have a "built-in" 5 1/2 degree cant because of a misaligned right (rear) knee so I was probably exacerbating the problem with the cant. I guess I could even play with moving it to the front foot.

On an unrelated note, for ski racing I switched from stock Technica Icon race boots to Lange's new "Crazy Blue" World Cup 120 plug boots. The tech in our shop worked several hours to correct the right knee deflection. The boot has been modified so much it won't even stand up straight by itself anymore! Although it feels strange to walk in, the difference in my ski racing is extraordinary. My A frame problem is pretty much gone. At the pacesetter trials at Okemo on the 17th, I managed a Platinum when AJ Kitt was pacesetting.

With the problem related to my right knee, removing the rear cant on my GS board has to help. There is no substitute for having someone look at my gear and watch my riding. If you find yourselves at Okemo on Fridays, Saturdays, or Sundays this season stop by the NASTAR shack on Black Out. Hopefully I'll be able grab my board and and break free for a few runs.