Teaching beginners - rotation or not?

[BlueB]

This is an offspring from another tread... Here's the innitial comments:

...

When you are talking about static drills, you talked about turn initiation with hands, head and rotation (upper body??) I am just curious why?

For me all turn initiation starts with ankles, knees and hips. For most efficient turns upper body movements follow, not lead, lower body turn initiation movements.

In my ski school I have seen many teach upper body stuff and then you have to unteach it when you get the students to an upper level, as these techniques do not work very well for carving, bumps or steeps.

After doing this for years and teaching several thousand folks, I am not talking out of my a$$. So not flaming here, but challenging an approach you have taken.

My approach is to introduce all movements on flat ground ( at least briefly) even in an upper level class. Brief review on hill, and then let her rip for a run. At least with the teaching runs we use mostly here - it helps me as we don't stop much on the run and it limits me to one concept per run and helps them by giving time to work on it.

The next one is a little more complex, but maybe you will try it sometime. Most instructors tend to teach extension unweighting first. While I use that sometimes, it is the exception rather than the rule. I much prefer the speed, precision and balance that down unweighting gives you. Couple that with torsional twist edge release and you have a dynamic beginner with all the skills to go to a higher level. And that is how I carve and how most people that I like to watch carve.

You don't have to agree with me, but try it out sometime.If the lower body movements are introduced and taught correctly the speed at which beginners and advanced beginners progress is really amazing.

If I disagree with something you have posted on a thread ( turn initiation with hands and head) I am going to post the reason so that others who read this thread won't accept as fact something, that while it works in one limited facet, I believe leads to problems and challenges later on.

After my experience with AASI, (Full Cert, Division Clinician Leader -DCL and examiner), I find that the "official" teaching progression tends to be about two years behind what is being taught at the cutting edge of snowboard instruction.

BTW- I can't address ski instruction as I have 13 years teaching snowboard, not skiing, but leading with head and hands on beginners tends to cause over rotation and tail washout on heelside for snowboarders.

[Jack M]

Rotation = unneeded motion. The Norm has been time tested.

Before anyone mentions EC, beginners have no business even thinking about EC. It's an advanced skill for expert carvers. Talk about rotation then.

[BlueB]

Jack, we are talking general snowboarding, thus beginners on soft boots. Norm has little to do here.

Further on rotation:

Mind is our quickest "organ". Eye is about 2nd. Eyes are on the head, the rest is attached to the head with board being the last in the chain. Mind leads, eye follows, head follows, body follows, legs follow... board has to follow.

It is so easy to tell a beginner, especially a child, look there and you'll go there.

Then, not encouraging rotation normally leads into counter-rotation, and beginners attempts to initiate down-low often lead into tail kicking. Telling them to rotate into the turn actually bearly keeps them alligned with the board...

[Jack M]

Jack, we are talking general snowboarding, thus beginners on soft boots.

I didn't realize that.

Of course, leading with the eyes is the most important thing. And yes, counter-rotation is to be avoided.

[carvedog]

Jack, we are talking general snowboarding, thus beginners on soft boots. Norm has little to do here.

Further on rotation:

Mind is our quickest "organ". Eye is about 2nd. Eyes are on the head, the rest is attached to the head with board being the last in the chain. Mind leads, eye follows, head follows, body follows, legs follow... board has to follow.

It is so easy to tell a beginner, especially a child, look there and you'll go there.

Then, not encouraging rotation normally leads into counter-rotation, and beginners attempts to initiate down-low often lead into tail kicking. Telling them to rotate into the turn actually bearly keeps them alligned with the board...

Always, Always look where you are going, or where you want to go. Of course.

IMHO the turn starts in the feet (first), ankles, hips and upper body follows the lead of the lower body. It takes a much larger upper body movement to get the board to follow than the other way around. Not that it can't work the other way, but the bigger the movement the less efficient the turn.

The less efficient the turn, the sooner you are burnt toast on a powder day.

Whether in bumps, carving or just general riding I try to move my hands and arms as little as possible. Most instructors seem to emphasize a quiet upper body as a desirable trait. Just because the bigger movement may be easier to teach in the short run, than some of the subtle foot, ankle and knee movements doesn't mean it is better.

I would truly love some feedback from others on this idea. When I was running our hiring clinics here if anyone persisted in teaching upper body turn initiation after the first day or two, was busted back to SB101.

To reference EC, I don't think that anything that I teach at beginner level, would have to be undone to EC. And no Jack I don't try to get intermediates to Euro, I just want them to have the same solid skill set that works everywhere up to and including EC.

Discuss.

[Phil]

Does the tail wag the dog?

I thought this was a great saying.

What happened to the post?

[Rob Stevens]

If you all agree that looking where you're going and leading with the head are desirable in any level of rider, than you should allow / promote some amount of rotation to initiate turns.

If you look there, that's where you'll go.

It seems simple enough: You look over and point your leading hand there, the shoulders and hips follow, bringing the board along.

Initially, when I would try to have beginners or novices "steer", or use their feet / ankles / knees to turn, I would wind up with counter rotation as steering doesn't work that well at low speed. It can, but man, do you ever have to have an incredibly keen sense of balance. This balance awareness is the exception rather than the rule with my first time clients.

This is one of the main reasons CASI has stuck with rotation for beginners: You can get it to work when the rider is travelling along at walking speed.

As for the bad habits that may be developed as a result of learning through rotation, I can't imagine them being any worse that those that would happen if you learned through counter rotation or tried to learn by attempting to steer at 2 mph. Also, as soon as someone can link basic turns, they are taught how to create edge angle through vertical movement, engaging the sidecut to turn. The rotation then becomes "anticipation" allowing the upper and lower body to be aligned at the apex of the turn. The candidate is also going faster at this (novice) point, where our "intro to steering" works better.

In subsequent levels, you will also see other forms of turning. They are introduced to maximise performance in certain situations. EG: Moguls, where face the nose "power" counter rotation would be used over rotation for short turns in the fall line.

In the end, we may see better board construction and shapes lead us to a more lower body initiated beginner turn. Until then, we'll stick with the good-style-promoting, fluid old standby, rotation.

As for teaching rotation after day 2... I'll take SB101, thanks. I like the stoke there better.

Rob

CASI Prez

[roscoe]

I soft-booted for 10 years, but by no means am I an expert/at the level to teach

BUT, one exercise that I like to do on my own to hone my skills is to hold my forearms vertical in front of me, with my hands about chest level. This stops my arms from moving at all during turns. I then try to keep my upper body as stiff as possible.

This makes it so that all my turn comes from ankles/knees, and some movement in the hips to get a tighter turn. Still, I am leading with the ankles/knees, and the hips follow after the ankles/knees initiate the turn.

I've mentioned this to a few people that i've boarded with, and they've found that it really helps them make tighter/easier turns.

it works for me, but any comments on the style?

[Phil]

If you all agree that looking where you're going and leading with the head are desirable in any level of rider, than you should allow / promote some amount of rotation to initiate turns.

I would agree, but I believe that the rotation should be a result of what is done with the lower body instead of rotating the upper body to cause the correct result with the lower body.

It seems simple enough: You look over and point your leading hand there, the shoulders and hips follow, bringing the board along..

Again, I am with carvedog on this one - why teach something that is not as effective at a higher level? If you teach from the feet up, they will be able to build on that foundation for all levels of riding.

Initially, when I would try to have beginners or novices "steer", or use their feet / ankles / knees to turn, I would wind up with counter rotation as steering doesn't work that well at low speed. It can, but man, do you ever have to have an incredibly keen sense of balance. This balance awareness is the exception rather than the rule with my first time clients.

Using your feet does not mean that you have to steer, though. I focus on starting in a good neutral position and then pressing on one edge or the other with the front foot.

For example - if a student stands up on their toeside edge, I would have them simply press the heel of their front foot down a little. This, of course, releases their toeside edge at the front of their board, starting their board downhill. I often do this with a traverse - encouraging them to then press back on the toes again to turn uphill and stop. Garlands are done the same way - front foot - toe then heel then toe and so forth. From there I go into the first C-turn. I basically have them initiate everything from the front foot by pressing - not necessarily steering. This works at speeds even less than 2 mph. This causes twisting of the board - which has been a good point of debate in AASI (where does twist belong?).

In children, I do this with rotation because they do not have the lower body development to work from their ankles. Rotation will accomplish the same thing, only with a lot of wasted movement that they will have to unlearn later.

This is one of the main reasons CASI has stuck with rotation for beginners: You can get it to work when the rider is travelling along at walking speed..

Rotation used to be taught in the states - and still is in some places. Like I said, I still use it with children (and sometimes with adults as a last resort). I used to teach rotation in the '90s, but I have found that independant foot pressure, or twist, works far better - and then sets a student up for better riding in the long run.

In subsequent levels, you will also see other forms of turning. They are introduced to maximise performance in certain situations. EG: Moguls, where face the nose "power" counter rotation would be used over rotation for short turns in the fall line.

Face the nose/fall line for moguls with counter rotation is exactly why I would teach movements from the feet up. If you can ride from your feet up, your board will work it's way through the moguls. If you are taking a tight line, I would point my lead shoulder down the fall line and work the board under me - with as little counter rotation as possible. There is little or no counter rotation involved, as the forces involved would allow the board to "ride" under you - basically a cross under turn.

The reason that I really don't like lining up facing the fall line is that when you are bringing your board across the hill for a toe to heel transition, you are now twisted up 180 degrees - then when you bring the board across for a heel to toe transition, you are totally facing your bindings. On skis, facing the fall line gives you 90 degrees of upper and lower body separation on each side - on a snowboard with low softie angles, pointing your shoulder down the fall line gives you 90 degrees of upper and lower body separation on each side.

[Rob Stevens]

When you ride bumps, you lead with your front shoulder. If you're looking where you're going and likely have your front hand raised up in your direction of travel, you're "anticipating".

This is the close relative of rotation.

Turning with the upper body, where the lower remains passive except for feeling "heels"-"flat"-"toes" (or opposite for heelside) is taught to a never-ever, up to the point of comfort (student smiling) in beginner turns. From that point on, steering is introduced (at novice) and perfected (up to expert).

You could even argue that simply pointing out to a student what part of their foot they're using in a beginner turn is building a foundation for steering.

In the end, we have found rotation to be an easy way to get someone up and turning as well as introducing it as a tool for VERY effective SPEED CONTROL. If ease isn't important to you, you might be missing a key factor, or what we call the "X-Box Challenge". Being around to "Unlearn" bad habits later aknowledges that the student in a beginner lesson will keep riding after the lesson is over. In my experience, if you don't make it as easy as possible, using the larger parts of the body that they can feel, without much subtlety, it may be more difficult. Carvedog mentioned that he'd rather use a more difficult methodology initially, to make it easier to achieve later goals. What if they're not around later (back to the X-Box) because the first goals weren't dead-easy to achieve?

Where I think this discussion has merit is identifying the point at which we go from rotation to anticipation with steering. In CASI, if you don't have much knowledge past the novice phase (level 1), you will find it hard to teach beyond that level, yet snowschools traditionally have tapped these people to give intermediate lessons. They try to do this with the skill sets they have and wind up promoting rotation past its true point of usefulness. This is changing now that schools are promoting courses at a higher level and hiring instuctors with advanced levels to teach the emerging higher end market.

Having learned personally through the school of rotation (thanks, CK) I can honestly say that increasing my knowledge and awareness of steering made me a much better rider (try riding with no bindings to see how your steering skills rate). That being said, though, I found that aquiring the new skills of steering went hand in hand with the old ones, found in rotation.

By the way, where the fcuk were you guys at Interski? There was alot of discussion on this subject and no Yanks to pimp steering for beginners.

North Korea isn't that scary. Did the PSIA / AASI think Kim Jong-Il was going to invade because they were there?

[Guest 2board]

I've been able to get many first timers up and riding using twist to start. Also, talking about rotation is pointless unless you talk about what you are rotating.

All I say to beginning students is "Turning comes from the front half of the board, just push on the front half of either edge and the board will turn in that direction." With in a few minutes the group is making gentle turns out of a glide. This works with both feet strapped in, one foot strapped in or no feet strapped in. With this, some balance drills, and some sideslipping/traversing I can have people making solid linked turns in 2 lessons. Typically they are almost there by the end of the first, then everything solidifies by the end of the second.

But that's just my preference. I think both rotation and twist are ok ways to get people to ride in the hands of a good instructor.

You gotta remember the only true, single answer when it comes to a question about teaching is "It depends"

[Rob Stevens]

If I knew how to use the quote function, I would here.

"Power" counter-rotation" is supported by the core, not the upper body, which remains stable. The board is turned through steering, while the upper body is always "anticipating" the fall line.

As for whether or not facing the nose is right or wrong, I'll reserve that judgment for when I'm about to drop in.

I'd like to say that these conversations are kind of stupid, as if both work fine (which they obviously do) then who cares? Just keep teaching and if your student is stoked, than you must be doing something right. It is a shame that due to our systems, though, Carvedog can eliminate a good instructor, based on teaching strategies employed. Going by that logic, over half the countries presenting in Korea would only be fit for SB101. That's the dogma that comes out of a systematic, gradeable approach to teaching people to teach. We're not here to create free thinkers. You have to do alot of training to be able to think for yourself (I'm going to remember that one).

Whether you believe in it or not, if you teach in Canada, you use rotation in the beginner progression. If nobody's watching, then it's up to you. Just don't have your student get hurt and sue because you weren't using the "prescribed methods".

[Neil Gendzwill]

If I knew how to use the quote function, I would here.

Select (highlight) the text you want and then punch this icon:

It's the furthest right in the list of icons just above the edit field.

Alternately, put (quote) before the text you want to quote and (/quote) afterwards but instead of () use [].

[Bobby Buggs]

I remember my first lesson back in 93. I had the heel side, put the board flat and rolled it on the toe side and fell every time. Boy I was pissed when my wife got both turns before me that day. It came to me when the instructor was behind me and saw me setting up for my toe side, He said to me "look up hill" Look at me. I turned my head and Bam I had the Toe side. Not sure if my story applies but I felt like rambling

[Vahur]

Rotation = unneeded motion. The Norm has been time tested.

Before anyone mentions EC, beginners have no business even thinking about EC. It's an advanced skill for expert carvers. Talk about rotation then.

I see it more like different school thing : prerotation is taught in swiss snowboard school to total beginners (at least such impression I got by looking at tuition groups) whereas US school prefers "The Norm"? And Canada seems to be more rotation-oriented?. EC is just extreme example of rotation technique and steep slope.

Me personally likes (pre)rotation technique, as it seems very fluid and natural when applied correctly. Of course in some situations (moguls, ice) one is better off with more efficient or different technique (Norm, counter-rotation or french-upper-body-fixed-to-fall-line), but I'm not the person, who prefers to ride in such conditions (is there such riders at all?), thus swiss rotation style is the way to go for me.

[Guest JAZZ]

Maybe this animated picture will help with analizing it.

[carvedog]

By the way, where the fcuk were you guys at Interski? There was alot of discussion on this subject and no Yanks to pimp steering for beginners.

North Korea isn't that scary. Did the PSIA / AASI think Kim Jong-Il was going to invade because they were there?

Rob - Maybe we need to agree to disagree, but I really am challenging instructors out there to try this. I am the most cynical bastich on the planet and I absolutely refuse to endorse things until I have really tried them out. As in lots and lots.

In terms on going to Interski, I have pretty much dropped out of AASI due to the continued emphasis on freestyle manuevers as being mandatory for upper level certifications without addressing alpine and carving as a separate ( although smaller and certainly more niche) skill set that would have it's own standards as well.

I am not interested in doing 360 on plates in the bumps to prove anything to anyone.

I did go to 2 national AASI conferences for discussion of above standards etc. and we had some real donnybrooks over those issues. With some saying if you couldn't 360 on your equipment you aren't worthy of level 3 etc. and that is where I started to lose interest.

Initially, when I would try to have beginners or novices "steer", or use their feet / ankles / knees to turn, I would wind up with counter rotation as steering doesn't work that well at low speed. It can, but man, do you ever have to have an incredibly keen sense of balance. This balance awareness is the exception rather than the rule with my first time clients.

The success that I have had with this seems to really rely on how I introduce the steering movements. I don't think it is balance that is needed as much as a strong neutral stance to build from. The other benefit is that if you guide with feet, ankle, knee movements one can almost eliminate completely the dreaded edge catch. From teaching more upper body rotation (several years ago) how many times have you seen people do all the right things with upper body, forget about the feet and do the slam? I know I have and that is part of what started me reviewing the way I teach.

It is a shame that due to our systems, though, Carvedog can eliminate a good instructor, based on teaching strategies employed. Going by that logic, over half the countries presenting in Korea would only be fit for SB101.

At the time I was responsible for maintaining our ski school "standards" so that we are giving the same lesson more or less throughout the snowboard school. Besides the fact that I personally endorse the style or system.

I remember my first lesson back in 93. I had the heel side, put the board flat and rolled it on the toe side and fell every time. Boy I was pissed when my wife got both turns before me that day. It came to me when the instructor was behind me and saw me setting up for my toe side, He said to me "look up hill" Look at me. I turned my head and Bam I had the Toe side. Not sure if my story applies but I felt like rambling

This is a great example of why you should not teach upper body initiation. By having you look up the hill you were simply aligning your body to your feet which lets the board finish the turn. The first time I questioned upper body "rotational" type turning was for someone who was going back to the heelside from toes. They completed rotated the upper body, leading with the hand, down the hill with no resulting turning from the board.

Sooooo, I started talking all about the angle of the board on the snow and how to get it to change often and smoothly, then started a year later incorporating ankle moves and "releasing" the board down the hill with the front foot with spectacular results.

When you ride bumps, you lead with your front shoulder. If you're looking where you're going and likely have your front hand raised up in your direction of travel, you're "anticipating".

This is the close relative of rotation.

Turning with the upper body, where the lower remains passive except for feeling "heels"-"flat"-"toes" (or opposite for heelside) is taught to a never-ever, up to the point of comfort (student smiling) in beginner turns. From that point on, steering is introduced (at novice) and perfected (up to expert).

In the end, we have found rotation to be an easy way to get someone up and turning as well as introducing it as a tool for VERY effective SPEED CONTROL.

Carvedog mentioned that he'd rather use a more difficult methodology initially, to make it easier to achieve later goals. What if they're not around later (back to the X-Box) because the first goals weren't dead-easy to achieve?

Rob,

I don't think I said it was more difficult for the student but more challenging for the instructor to teach or learn how to teach this way, as I believe you have to have a more thorough understanding of where the turn is coming from and better movement analysis skills to see if they actually get it.

My quote below:

"Just because the bigger movement may be easier to teach in the short run, than some of the subtle foot, ankle and knee movements doesn't mean it is better."

The other thing that I think guided turns vs. rotational upper body does, is that it encourages turn shape and lateral movement across the fall line.

With rotation I observed a lot of turns that ended up being made in a 10 to 15 foot wide zone, as the turn is forced with rotation instead of guided turn shape. That is fine at 3-5 mph when it is done at higher speeds you can end with some horrible slams as without the turn shape to help scrub speed all the force is down the fall line and newbies don't have the skills to handle the forces.

These are just some of my observations from over the years, but I encourage all to go out and try it for yourself. I have enjoyed this thread, thanks BlueB for bringing it over here from my attempted threadjack on your other post.

OK i am off the soapbox of torsional twist turning, carry on.

[Pow]

Two days ago my friend leaned over to me in the chair lift, looking a bit uneasy and embarassed. He then asked me the question ive been waiting for since about this time last year: "hey steve... how do you carve?" I gave him instruction on how to do the norm by the book, and as soon as he strapped in he immediately carved a line 180 degrees all the way around the top lift station, coming to a stop just about as far uphill as he was when he started. i then told him how to do it heelside, and he proceded to do a heelside turn, linked with a toeside without falling or wobble. he carved the whole way down and when we got to the bottom he said "now i know why you do this... its FUN!"

basically, the norm works. It's a great teaching tool, because the student has a very simple task to work on. It can easily be tweaked as you switch to different terrain (mainly flat to steeps), and it's easy to tell when theyre doing it wrong and what theyre doing wrong.

do not teach rotation, instead teach the student to "stand tall but not stiff and tilt the board on its edge without moving a muscle"

[BlueB]

Pow,

Again - we are not discussing carving instruction, but rather basic snowboarding to total beginners... Norm comes later.

[carvedog]

Pow,

Again - we are not discussing carving instruction, but rather basic snowboarding to total beginners... Norm comes later.

Except to the point that I think torsional twist moves in a straight line learning curve in one direction. And rotation has to back track slightly to unlearn a few things.

[Rob Stevens]

In my experience, we have 2 factors at work here:

-Attempted edge change without rotation (slam)

-Attempted rotation without edge change (traverse forever)

When teaching, I find that if you don't have one, the other usually suffers.

Picture the beginner, on heelside, rotating their upper body like a bastard, without releasing the hips forward, allowing the board to go flat and seek the fall line. Simply relying on rotation won't get this person around.

The same beginner, on heelside again, in a sliding traverse that may have more down in it than across, goes to a flat base, looking for the toes, without some rotation. They hook the toe edge and stack.

In the first case, I encourage more lower body participation. We do the "dance" where the instructor allows the rider to traverse to them at which point the front hand is guided to the fall line, while simultaneously, the leading hip is pulled forward from its rearward edging / traversing position. During this, the instructor is saying: "OK, you're on your heels..." as the upper body is rotated and the hips brought forward, saying "Let the board go flat..." and with continued guiding of the upper body "Now push on your toes".

In the latter case, I'd use the same excercise, to get the person to the fall line with all parts alingned. You can't have one without the other. Well you can, but I have to ask you about the AASI's requirement for traversing skill needed before progressing to turning. If you skid more than you carve, you'll hook an edge if you don't rotate with your steering. In CASI, if you can traverse the hill at around 45 degrees (down as much as across) you're ready to try turning, but if you do it at 45 degrees, without some rotation, you'll just catch the downhill edge.

A good instructor will have to employ rotation or steering, depending on the person. If you refuse to use one or the other, I honestly think you're limiting the students potential. I have also yet to see an example of students having to "unlearn" something, because they were introduced to beginner riding with the CASI system. The rotation (based on the traversing requirement) makes up for the gap left by simply relying on your feet. The steering element aknowledges that you can't ride AT ANY LEVEL with just your torso.

Once you can carved traverse, you can go to flat with no danger of hooking. You have eliminated the skid, eliminating the edge catch. At this point, you could ride with your hands in your pockets pretty well, though anticipation / rotation gives you a bit of the old surf style, which I like.

Too bad about your system... In CASI we have modified the Level 4 into two "streams". You can be a level 4 "Alpine", or a Level 4 "Park", with freeriding in the gear of your choice and pedagogy as mandatory, at the core. If you're super ****-hot, you can do both.

Keep the alpine shred alive, I say. As President, it is one of the legacies I'm most proud of, because it was going the way you described with AASI for awhile, alienating some (the minority) along the way. Truth be told, the majority of our new high-level recruits are more comfortable in the park, but you have guys like Boris, too, who may go for the 4 at some point. Hardbooters need love too.

[BlueB]

Hardbooters need love too.

:D Thanks Rob!