[technique] Troublesome heelsides

[Rob Stevens]

Bullwings;

Sorry again, Bro. I know you're just trying to get better. It's really hard to know someones skill level when all you have to go on is a post count.

You should video yourself and post it to the site, so we can see what you're doing.

I'd be stoked to help you out... With my job, it's the only teaching I do nowadays.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Facing the nose also lets me pivot faster, quickly moving from one edge to another, but I usually do this in a short "slarving" (slide-carving) turn, for trees and tight spaces.

When the snow goes firm and chopped up, I'll stay more centered and try to stay with my angles so I can recover to neutral if I slip.

Horses for courses.

Thanks, that clears it up a lot. I've always maintained a more forward stance and facing the nose is useful for situations where you need to turn quick and not get too inclined. Like bumps, for example. I sometimes think I'm the only snowboarder around who likes them, although I know there's a few here who are also bump fans.

[Rob Stevens]

I love bumps.

If I'm trying to stay with the skier line (narrow corridor), I'll face the nose, so I'm already "anticipating" each direction change.

It's tough to stay strong, using core muscles to steer the board, rather than have it get too counter-rotated and ugly, with a bunch of arm-hucking.

In bigger bumps, or if I'm setting the radius of the turn, regardless of where the bumps are, I'll stay more lined up with the bindings.

This always seems to result in a slightly bigger turn, though (rounder, for sure).

I've been riding alot of TeePee Town chair lately at Sunshine. Schoolmarm bumps are ON right now. Because most folks thing the old double is too slow, nobody rides down that way, so the snow is mint, even during holidays. The truth is, with no lines and a shorter vertical rise, it's only 10 minutes to Angel chairs 7. The terrain on lower Angel is flat anyway, so you're not missing anything in that lost vertical.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In bigger bumps, or if I'm setting the radius of the turn, regardless of where the bumps are, I'll stay more lined up with the bindings.

I find in bigger bumps, I have to let the terrain dictate where I turn. If it's smaller bumps in intermediate terrain, I can absorb them enough to turn where I want.

I do remember many years ago when I was a struggling intermediate skier, trying to survive Lone Pine at Norquay, seeing some patrollers scream past me doing 3-bump long turns in total control. That's stuck in my head ever since, and I would love to be able to do that on a board. Any turn shape, any speed, any hill - that's what I consider true mastery. Not necessarily achievable, but a goal anyways.

[Rob Stevens]

The bar gets set pretty high when the goal is to ride bumps as well as skiers. GS down Lone Pine is a strictly pow endeavour, for me.

Neil and I are sorry for the threadjack, Kjl.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The bar gets set pretty high when the goal is to ride bumps as well as skiers.

I pass most of the tourists (ha! like I'm not one myself), but there's no way I can keep up with a good bump skier.

[kjl]

Neil and I are sorry for the threadjack, Kjl.

Heh, I think it's hard to stay on topic when the person asking for advice (me) can only try things out on the weekend. That's 7 days before I can come back and say, "yeah, I tried what you recommended and _____". ;)

So, to sum up:

I should start my turn on the nose of the board (I already do that) and possibly shift my weight to the back, or at least to center over the course of the turn (I already do that on the toeside, but not on the heelside).

I need to rotate my hips more so they face the bindings instead of the edge.

It wouldn't hurt to unwind my shoulders from my hips.

Less shoulder dip.

Anything else? That should be enough for me to concentrate on anyways... Also, does anybody have any body mnemonic tricks for getting those hips around? I was trying to "rotate my shoulders" to bring the hips around but that seems to be counterproductive and not really work anyways. Drive the back knee towards the nose of the board? Increas binding angle? Drive back knee towards heelside edge?

Thanks - everybody has been more than helpful on this thread...

[pebu]

I hope it's not like golf... The worst thing you can do to somebody whos about to swing is ask them if they breath in or out on the backswing. They start thinking about it and bam... they shank it.

[Rob Stevens]

RicHard suggested touching the toe of your back boot while raising your inside arm to create an arm spread that is parrallel to the snow, but also lines you up with your binders because you are reaching for the BACK foot.

The only warning I'll give here is to get close enough to touch your back toe by increasing the flex in your knees, rather than bending at the waist to get closer.

[Jack M]

Sounds good Ken.

I think it would be very difficult to properly pressure the front of the board while reaching for your back toe. Try reaching for your front toe too. See which one feels better.

[Rob Stevens]

Hell, Kjl, why not just grab frontside and photoshop yourself into a picture, 20 ft out?

In the air, there is no pressure.

[carvedog]

Thanks, that clears it up a lot. I've always maintained a more forward stance and facing the nose is useful for situations where you need to turn quick and not get too inclined. Like bumps, for example. I sometimes think I'm the only snowboarder around who likes them, although I know there's a few here who are also bump fans.

I love the bumps. Big squishy powder bumps, explodabumps, gs bumps and yes sometimes even tight zipper line bumps. I found out that some of my old gs boards actually worked better in the tight bumps because of the 21cm waist. It was easier than my more freestyle boards.

To add to your quest for the better heelside kjl, not that you don't have enough to think about already.

Some thing I was working on today with a pretty good carver was to reach for the snow with the "wrong" hand.

In other words on that heelside instead of letting your left hand go for the snow try reaching for the snow with your right hand. Let it come right past your front knee and drive for the snow with it. This is a variation of some of the things that folks have added on to the thread that may work for you.

This advice is worth at least what you paid for it. Maybe more. Good luck

[RicHard]

I think it would be very difficult to properly pressure the front of the board while reaching for your back toe.

In fact... for me... you don't have to pressure the front! ;-)

Well, actually, I'm trying to loose the bad habit of putting too much weight on the front foot. I realized that I could almost raise up the back foot while backsidecarving! :-( So... I'm fighting against this habit I have and I hate!

:-)

[Nicotine]

One simple thing that may help you to lay the power trench on the heelside, and feel like you are a train on a track, is to drive your rear knee 'HARD' towards your heelside edge...and towards the nose. I ride in walk mode with 6 deg rear cant, always flexing forwards on heelside rails. Additionally, I do reach across my chest as carvedog suggests with my "wrong" hand. Works for me, perhaps it will work for you.

Pete

[trailertrash]

Not really. Think upper body/lower body separation. One can vary the pressure between the front foot and back foot, while having the rear hand in line with the rear foot.

yeah you can vary the pressure with your hand back but i think jack was saying you cant put "proper" pressure on the front to start the turn with the hand in the back. maybe in hero snow, but not here in the east.

[pebu]

I guess I still don't quite understand KenW. When I reach down for my toe I'm doing one of two things. I'm either sittin on the toilet or I'm facing the toe I'm reaching for. Reaching for the FRONT knee or toe with the Back hand brings your shoulders around so you're looking where you're going.

Keep in mind I have less than 2 days on an alpine board and I'm not discounting that it works, but logic just seems to go the other way.

[Jack M]

Ken, it appears to me that if Jasey dropped his hand down to his board it would fall between his toes, and imo, closer to his front toe. I think reaching for the rear toe is a good recipe for the dreaded "front hip projection".

[Jack M]

Jack, of course riding at that high level is a dynamic experience, and one's back hand is going to float back and forth. Sometimes it may be closer to being in line with the rear foot, sometimes it my be closer to the front.

agreed.

I'm not advocating a rigid static position at all, however, I think myself, along with Bordy, Philfell, and RicHard are having serious problems with the idea that (as some posters here have suggested) rotating one's rear hand all the way to the front, or even to the opposite snow side, is somehow going to improve one's heelside turn. Over rotation will have the exact opposite effect, especially in declining snow conditions.

Telling new carvers to reach their back hand forward always had very positive results for me when I was an instructor. It gets people off the toilet, and it helps people stay with their board all the way around a carve. Newbies typically "open up" on heelside, and face down the fall line once the board comes around. If some people find they are best balanced reaching their back hand forward, and they stick with it, then I don't see anything wrong with that. At the end of the day, it's all about balance.

Besides, it's impossible to twist your hips all the way around to actually face the nose of the board while carving. 5, maybe 10 degrees beyond binding angle, tops. That's the most important part. Whether your chest is turned another 10-20 degrees really can't be significant, imo. I'd say as long as your hips and chest are somewhere between your binding angles and the nose, you're doing alright. Outside that range, yeah, something is amiss.

I'm going to catch hell for posting this pic, but I'd pay money to be in the room when you tell <i>this guy</i> he carves wrong.

[Rob Stevens]

This is getting more complicated than it needs to be.

Rotate and lie down or face the nose or whatever if the situation allows, or requires it. Even racers will face the nose, heelside if a late turn requires the rider to do everything in his / her power to bring it around.

If you think you're going to slide out because the snow is hard, you don't want to be out of an aligned position. This is from the shoulders and hips. If your arms move around a bit for balance this is natural.

If you go back to Kjl's question, he just wants to feel like he can control the tail sliding out. On good snow, it won't in the position he's in. If it gets hard, he moves back into alignment and levels his shoulders.

Whether you reach for the front, back or middle is just a case of timing and place in the turn. Coming out of the toe turn, many fast people will already be anticipated with their upper bodies, into the new heel turn. This is pretty close to, if not fully, back-hand-over-front-foot (counter rotated). You're already there, so use your core as you head to the apex, to bring yourself to alingnment. As you're doing this, you'd likely see your back hand go from over your front foot, to between the two and finishing into the toe turn with it over your back foot.

If you feel like this is getting you breaking at the waist, creating poo butt, get lower with your legs to get closer to the edge, not your waist. This should happen naturally as your board comes under you in a cross through turn.

Remember guys: Kjl is an EXPERIENCED carver, he'll know what works and what doesn't as soon as he does it. He doesn't need his hands held (unless they're doingthe wrong thing (joke)). In fact I think he can probably already do it... he's just looking for confirmation.

[Rob Stevens]

It means that if you told him he was reaching too far forward, he'd probably tell you to fcuk off. If he was doing that on ice though, you might not be able to find him to tell him anything... He'd be in the weeds.

[tex1230]

no need for that, rob. that guy can rip ice better than anyone I've seen.

[Rob Stevens]

Then he probably knows a few more moves than the one he's doing here and is sharp enough to use them when the conditions demand it.

[Jack M]

It means that if you told him he was reaching too far forward, he'd probably tell you to fcuk off. If he was doing that on ice though, you might not be able to find him to tell him anything... He'd be in the weeds.

Ha! wrong. More like, he'd be too far ahead of you. Believe me, this is reluctant testimony here. I have seen no stronger carver.

[Rob Stevens]

Jeez, Man... Touchy, touchy.

Kjl isn't a beginner! He doesn't likely ride, then, like "most people on this forum". In fact, many folks here just ride and don't really care about technique, so this thread is not for them... It's for Kjl.

A ripper from what I can see.

I didn't need to see your CV to know that you know what you're talking about and I don't know why my comments got you bailing, but whatever.

As for Bordy, well, I'm sure I'll have a smoke with that guy someday, but, I'm not so sure that, despite his obvious knowledge, too many people gave a **** what he was saying at the end. Philfell... Not quite as abrasive, but he's still a coach and not an instructor. Instructors get paid to stroke the client, to a certain extent, so we have a different way of talking. A coach will generally tell you like it is (especially high-end ones like Phil, who don't get paid to fcuk around). When you get "told" and you haven't signed up for "coaching", you might go on the defensive. People get offended all the time here, but when you ask for unsolicited comments, you get what you get.

The same goes for you. If it makes you mad, take a break, for sure. You should come back though... there aren't that many alpine technicians around to throw a perfectly good one away.

[Jack M]

Take it for what it is worth, but just so you and Jack know where I'm coming from: I obtained PSIA Level II on both skis and snowboard, and USSCA Level II coaching certificates. I was in serious training for PSIA Level 3, but didn't take the exam because of personal time constraints.

Very glad to have your level of expertise here. Don't get that wrong.

I trained for 5 years under a PSIA level 3 guy who could have been an examiner examiner if he cared to. I didn't feel the need to get certified because 1) PSIA is expensive (can you say "union"?) and 2) I was already getting the goods for free.

I can see why Bordy and Philfell get so frustrated on this forum, and like them, I think it's time to take a vacation in active posting.

Why, because people challenge your opinions? If I was that arrogant I would have stopped posting here years ago.