quick turns in medium-deep powder with hard boots/60 binding angles

[mrjamie]

In open bowls and blank faces waiting for the edge to mosey on around is no sweat. Even under lifts there's no great need to make quick, sharp turns. But in woods crowded with trees and uneven terrain I'm having an awfully difficult time turning the board (prior 4WD 168) with the swiftness necessary to avoid returning with a woodprint of my face.

The `technique` I'm using now is leaping and changing the position of my rear foot: besides a really tired back foot this results in (usually) either the laws of physics and his friend momentum bullying my downhill edge in the powder as soon as I land, or as I lift my back foot in preparation for `switching edges` the nose deciding it's more suited to life as a submarine.

At least with the former I get to do a neat little flip.

So I beseech you, fellow borders, to lend me your knowledge and offer your advice! I leave you now to go flip-flop down the back-country.

thump-thomp-fumph--ahhh

[Dave*]

This is my two canadian cents on being an arboreal hardbooter.

I spend a lot of time off piste and in the shrubbery on my 179 4x4 with a 21.5 waist just like your 168 4x4, I am currently on 27 mondo boots riding about 57 degree front with no overhang and back around 50 degree with a 22 inch center to center stance, flat n flat on the 4x4.

A wider board ie ATV with slacker angles is way easier in the rhubarb.

The big thing for treeing for me is the stance width, (I ride all my boards with a 22 inch center to center and the same splay) the wider stance allows me greater flexibility thru knees and hips as well as greater leverage over the board , i am the anomaly in the fact that I ride that wide of a stance being 5'11" with a 32 inseam , ( a big ball of wax on this topic in another thread- this is what works for me)

Also a softer flex boot or ride in unlocked "powder" mode if in raichle/deeluxe for that extra bit of give to butter things around in the trees

I would love to try the BTS out i think they would be ideal but........not available yet for most of us.

Also look not at the tree but where you want to go, start looking further ahead ie 40 to 80 feet ahead instead of 5 or 20 feet, it will vary with the tightness of the trees but it gives a lot more time to make your turns ie ride smart instead of reacting and constant panic corrections, each turn affects the next , read Keith Codes " a twist of the wrist"( its old but a classic) many chapters transferable to snowboarding, ie line selection, allocating your senses etc knowing the terrain is a big help in trees, ie where they tighten/open/drops/ etc, one more yoda-ism you can often go faster in the trees by slowing it down a bit , again the ride smart instead of reacting thing. I like trees they are predictable unlike the moving meat sacks on the groomies.

Also for treeing most important , CARRY a WHISTLE!!!!!!!!! that should be self explanatory,,, also not a bad Idea to have a buddy with you if in the more remote less travelled areas,

Take from it what you will

My two centavos

Dave*

[philw]

The whole leaping thing is definitely a bad idea. I can't quite see how that would work in back country powder (there's not an awful lot to leap off), but it's just wrong anyway.

Here's a tree shot from yesterday. Or was it the day before; can't remember, there's a lot of powder about at the moment.

You will note that other than my obvious skill and judgement, there is an important ingredient here... last year's Fish. Ok, any year's Fish will do the job, and this year's are prettier... so I would suggest you take those hard boots and strap them onto something like this: a tree board, no less.

Otherwise... I use the standard stance on a Fish, whatever that is. I maybe push the bindings (F2 titanium race) a bit closer together: I only have short legs so I don't find wide stances comfortable. Angles can go a bit mellower.

As far as riding trees in general, I guess it's like the rest of it: practice makes perfect. A proper powder board with a soft tail or a pin tail helps, because you can "mush" the tail into the snow to slow down whilst you turn. I've not ridden the Prior, but you should be able to tell if the tail is soft enough for your weight by riding it.

[Slim]

Nice pic, Phil!

[yamifumi]

As far as riding trees in general, I guess it's like the rest of it: practice makes perfect. A proper powder board with a soft tail or a pin tail helps, because you can "mush" the tail into the snow to slow down whilst you turn. I've not ridden the Prior, but you should be able to tell if the tail is soft enough for your weight by riding it.

What if you dont have proper powder board, how about burton ultra prime 168 with 19.5 width. I also have hard time turning since when i tried to switch edges, my nose tends to dips in. it got better when i leaned backward but I still need help on techniques.

[mrjamie]

Gah-I just lost a reply that took 20mins to type on this cellphone.

To sum tgat lost message up:

- thanks for the advice

- with my back foot instead of pushind down and leaning back I tried down and forward

- at the same time I pushed back with my front foot, giving it the leverage needed to steer while helping to maintain balance & center of gravity

- the above stance is the `norm` used in initiaing EC turns. hoo-ray, somethng transfers over

- the new stance+Dave's advice helped a lot with swiftness in turning, but I still get the heebie-jeebies looking domn steeps into a thick copse of trees: like phil reminded us of common knowledge, practice! There is no try, as Yoda would say; only do or do not

-big turns on steep deep powder are !exquisite!

Voila.

[bobdea]

yamifumi, I tend to just go as fast as I can on alpine boards and turn carefully while leaning back

unlock your boots if possible too

[crucible]

I agree with Dave S. that visual anticipation- looking 50-75 feet ahead of you is the secret to bombing smoothly through trees.

I also crouch lower in stance, and more centered on my board, because you have very little space to initiate rapid sequence turns in trees.

Practicing very quick cross-under turns on the shoulder of an open run is good practice for dealing with the gate rhythm needed in trees.

With regards to safety, +1 on the whistle, always ride trees with a partner, and get the best helmet and goggles that you can afford- they're mandatory equipment.

In twenty years of ripping through the woods, I have only two broken bones (a rib and a collarbone) from it- and it's still my one of my favorite things to do on a snowboard.

[cliffh]

beutiful pics on your site Phil. very nice

[Rob Stevens]

-Short tail.

-Big nose.

Brake in the fall-line by pushing the tail DOWN.

If you have to go sideways, making a sliding turn to brake, your high angles will not help you. In fact, once you get on your heels, the forward stance will have you rotated so far away from where you need to be for the start of your next turn you may never make it. Go lower on the back foot, even if your angles become "splayed".

I encourage those who want to ride true race boards in the trees to not do it. The stiffness and nose profiles just aren't right. There are some who can do it and do it well, but you must be ready to commit to alot of speed. If you love speed and are unafraid of impact, give'r.

As for the hardboots in pow, I don't have much time for that either, unless they are softer than normal, or in walk mode. The power needed to rail hardpack is well out of the range of what's required in untracked snow. My biggest concerns are:

1. Little mistakes in pressure and position go right to the base and since it's too soft to support mistakes, you go right over.

2.Your ability to recover from mistakes where you didn't crash is restricted. When you don't have easy ankle movement in powder, you have one less pivot point to work with for recentering yourself.

PhilW aside, I don't know any guides who use racing hardboots on snowboards. In fact, I'm surprised Lundgren and Achy don't abuse him enough to make him stop. It is a testament to the Fish that it will work when the rider is in casts. The better riders on this forum will also not likely agree, but they don't make as many mistakes as the author of this thread is suggesting he does.

Keep it simple: Tapered board with a big nose and shorter tail, soft boots and bindings, or at least the first with the hardboots on full soft and a low back foot angle.

Once you have the setup down, go find some pow with no trees and see how many turns you can make in a certain distance. When you can do a bunch of turns in a short space, you should be able to deal with tighter trees.

[bobdea]

coming from me the guy who uses the stiffest softboots and binding he can find

Rob doesn't use bindings in the the fresh at all

I ride plates in pow when I need to but really don't think they are the right too for the job and certainly race decks are not

this does not mean it can't be done though, it's just a bitch

[tahoetrencher]

Does noone carve powder here?

Take the raceboard Rob left at home

Think Kris Kristofferson at the end of that "Star is Born" movie set to the drum choir in the beginning of Hawaii-5O-

Now push that Ferrari 96% as hard as Kris.

On the Uber-Plane you need only minute control inputs like the minimum deflection of control surface when the jet's wings are folded in.

Carve on the top with just your toes. Weight more than your big toes and dive 2-4 feet below for huge porpoises. This is good practice for the breathless submarine recovery technique required for the unloading of excess air.

If you only want one best way to hit Pow- this isn't it.

If Bottomless is too rare to work on a third or seventh pow technique-forget this one.

If there is no end to the spices you would consider in the consumption of Powder then add a short slalom stik to the truck next time- the gs stiks are tougher but if you like the short one there'll be no stopping you.

[mackDan]

The `technique` I'm using now is leaping and changing the position of my rear foot: besides a really tired back foot this results in (usually) either the laws of physics and his friend momentum bullying my downhill edge in the powder as soon as I land, or as I lift my back foot in preparation for `switching edges` the nose deciding it's more suited to life as a submarine.

As an extensive off piste rider (almost all my riding with a bunch of off piste softbooters), I obviously have an opinion on this. So hang on.

You want to try and be smooth in all your riding techniques, either carving hard on the perfect piste, or swooping through pow in the open glades, or jamming through the tight trees in deep champagne. So you have to work toward that, even when you are driving the board hard (pushing hard). NO LIFTING OF FOOT TO INITIATE! (more down below)

1. The narrower and stiffer the board the harder it is to ride in the powder. Wider and a bit softer is better. Sitting back is not the answer. A normal softboot width stance is good, a narrow race board stance is harder to use in deeper powder (deeper + narrower = harder)

2. To initiate a turn you have to transfer weight to the downhill side of the board (we all know that!). The more rushed you are in trying to do this in powder, eg turn, the more likely you will bury the nose of the board. This is what DAVE mentions about looking ahead. Find your next turn just after you enter the turn you are in. You can use the trees as pylons and visualize a path. More planning is a smoother ride = less crash.

This also gets into #5 below, which is pushing out of one turn to initiate the next. Push, pop, turn.

3. To initiate a turn after a restart (crash, dig out, stand up, catch breath), you'll need to over emphasize the turn initiation (turn and shoulder lead), but pull back a bit just as the turn is starting or you'll drive the front inside corner back into the snow you just dug out of and have to pick yourself up once again. Re read this part. You have to do this because there is no hard pack piste to catch your fall. The soft powder is going to soak up your hard intiation and the board and you will sink in several inches (or feet) before you build up enough pressure to support your leaned over weight/force.

4. The steeper the off piste, the easier it is to recover from a nose dive. TUCK your head and roll, and finish with a hallelujah! (lift your hands to the sky). You'll have just completed a front loop and still be snowboarding down the hill. Just try and not hit anything between recovery and when you can actually see. So don't try to do this in tight trees, you'll just kiss one and knock your self out. Try this on a steep open slope.

5. Its all about rhythm. Push, pop, turn, push pop turn. Its essentially the same thing we do when we carve, but its obivously different because the snow is more yielding on the push so that's not as clear cut or responsive, and there is more extranious snow to affect the board when its not loaded heavily.

To get into the next turn you have to push down (body center line) to move your body up, which will unload the board. When the board starts to unload, you transition your upper body downhill (lead shoulder fall, fall over the front), and then settle into the turn (catch). Now in some powder, you'll push and not get enough force under you to initiate a turn, well go straight for another few feet and push again and transition. This happens when you weren't thinking far enough ahead.

In the wide open glades with slow huge turns, the push is very subtle, its really happening through out the whole turn, peaking right at the end, just like a normal on-piste carve.

6. Rear foot lift (in the pop) can speed up the transition from edge to edge, but its not how you initiate. This really happens after the initiation of the turn (the push) and is in the unloaded/unweighted transition. Rear foot lift (tucking rear heel to your butt) can speed up the squence and allow you to get through the aspens (really tight trees), or through big moguled sections

You can practice rear heel lifting at the end of the day, on those snow piles that build up on the runs. Drop across a pile, push and lean into a turn, but before you get back to the top, initiate the next turn (fall downhill), and lift the rear of your board across the top of the pile and then catch yourself on the other side. Repeat faster by driving (pushing harder) harder with your feet and shoulders. You should be able to go back and forth across of long pile of snow, only going about 2-4 feet on either side of the fall line. This works for moguls also.

Good luck, and wear a helmet and good shatter resistant sunglasses or googles, those trees and branches are hard!!

[philw]

PhilW aside, I don't know any guides who use racing hardboots on snowboards. In fact, I'm surprised Lundgren and Achy don't abuse him enough to make him stop. It is a testament to the Fish that it will work when the rider is in casts.

I agree with most of that... exceptions..

;-) I'm working on converting Ken and Doug, but really I think people should ride what works for them, so my heart's not entirely in it. When they allowed snowboard guides at Wiegele's most (including Doug and Don) rode klickers. Go figure.

It's a mistake to think of hard boots as "casts". If you think about how they actually work... first of all they're not particularly stiff, and second the way you turn with them isn't the same as the way you turn with soft boots. So what stiffness there is works for you rather than against.. But it's all good.

[mrjamie]

this phone loves eating the replies I spend 40mins writing!

Anyways, dave's advice on looking a few turns ahead and hardbooters suggestion to use my shoulder's in initiating turns worked beautifully together.

What's more, all this steep off-piste riding has given my on-piste riding a small boost (and the peasants rejoiced).

Thanks to all those who offered their advice.

[dshack]

I'll second the 'no race boards in the trees' sentiment. Scared to take my 162 ultra prime on the plane, I came back for break with my 156 salomon 450 (freeride) board. What a difference in the trees and narrow gulleys! I'm a pretty amateur backcountry boarder, and have a lot of stop/start and falling when tree runs or gulleys get steep, but using a softer, turnier board with lower angles helped my tree riding incredibly. As a bonus, you don't risk scratching up your race board....if my new UP had gotten the scratches my old freeride board did these last few days, I'd be pretty depressed.

[mrjamie]

I'll second the 'no race boards in the trees' sentiment.if my new UP had gotten the scratches my old freeride board did these last few days, I'd be pretty depressed.

Though the 4WD is hardly a `race` bo.rd, I feel that using 63/60 angles is going half the way. OK, maybe a quarter f^_^;

Using the advice to plan my turns, push and pull, and use my shoulders, my off-piste riding seems to have improved !dramatically! in the past two days alone. Granted I haven't been back to steep trees yet, but steep lift-lines are now almost unbearably fun. On the less-inclined tree runs, again benefitting from the advice to practice popping on piste, I was turning with the smoothest motions and at a quick pace to boot ! (no pun intended)

I feel you on the scratches though (T_T)

[philw]

Here's a shot from yesterday.. 50 degree parallel, Fish:

I may have to airbrush that track out of the original ;-)

The snow was slightly grabby up there - wind affected - hence you need to be very, very careful with the nose. Fish work ok in this stuff though; that little tail cuts the snow neatly and the nose is safe.

[sheffy]

In open bowls and blank faces waiting for the edge to mosey on around is no sweat. Even under lifts there's no great need to make quick, sharp turns. But in woods crowded with trees and uneven terrain I'm having an awfully difficult time turning the board (prior 4WD 168) with the swiftness necessary to avoid returning with a woodprint of my face.

The `technique` I'm using now is leaping and changing the position of my rear foot: besides a really tired back foot this results in (usually) either the laws of physics and his friend momentum bullying my downhill edge in the powder as soon as I land, or as I lift my back foot in preparation for `switching edges` the nose deciding it's more suited to life as a submarine.

At least with the former I get to do a neat little flip.

So I beseech you, fellow borders, to lend me your knowledge and offer your advice! I leave you now to go flip-flop down the back-country.

thump-thomp-fumph--ahhh

I own both....several soft boot setups and hardboots.............and soft boots are the only way to fly for comfort and performance in the BACKCOUNTRY.....they beat hardboots hands down

[mrjamie]

phil does the guy on the cloud from Mario 64 follow you around with a camera or what? ;^ )

Lovely shot.