Weaker Toesides

[Jack M]

<i>originally posted by NateW</i>

I'm carving tighter on my heels than on my toes, and my stance is only 55/50. I had figured it was just because I practice heelsides more seriously because that was my weak side for a long time. I still think practice will tighten my toeside carves, but now you've got me wondering if there's a reason to tailor the board for more 'balanced' riding.

What do you think it is that makes toesides harder with high stance angles? At low stance angles (freeride / freestyle), I figure a tighter heel sidecut radius is a good thing, because our knees only bend in a direction that helps get more toeside angulation. For a high angle stance, my intuition says things ought to get more equal, not less. What am I overlooking?

I think that many people (including myself) can develop or lapse into a weaker toeside carve than heelside, once heelside carves have been mastered. This is because on toeside there is a natural tendency to want to bend over at the waist towards the snow off to the side of the board, and also to reach down for the snow with our hand(s). It is because our head thinks it is safer when it is closer to the snow, so it tries to get there first, before a properly balanced position can be assumed.

This is a less balanced position because that usually means your butt is up in the air - high c.o.g. Many times, you can end up bent over at the waist more than what your edge angle would dictate. I can't think of any other sport where bending over at the waist is the preferred, more balanced stance. <i>(okay, keep it clean here folks)</i>

The fix, I believe, is to drop your hips into the carve first. This stacks your upper body on top of your c.o.g., and your c.o.g. is in line with the edge angle of the board.

Here is a nice toeside by Ken B. His hand is down just as a feeler, but notice that otherwise his right hip is down and his upper body is more upright.

-Jack

[ncermak]

one thing I've used to keep the body over the board and angulated is to try to pinch the lovehandle between your ribs and your hip. this will help keep COG in the right place...

[Mike T]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

It is because our head thinks it is safer when it is closer to the snow, so it tries to get there first, before a properly balanced position can be assumed.

-snip-

The fix, I believe, is to drop your hips into the carve first. This stacks your upper body on top of your c.o.g., and your c.o.g. is in line with the edge angle of the board.

-snip -

-Jack

I have by *no means* mastered heelsides, but I did expreince exactly hat Jack was talking this morning. The grooming was less than ideal with lots of "cookies and marbles" all over the place. I was feeling very safe on heelside carves but tentative on toeside. I started reaching for the nosw just like Jack describes, and the toeside - usually my better turn - went to crap. When I caught myself doing this I would drive hard with the hips, and bingo! Problem solved, at least until the next time I lost my edge in the marbles.

-Mike T

[Guest woodman]

I've been told by observers that when I transition from heelside to toeside my body seems to "swing out" from under me. I feel this too when I'm riding, especially on my toesides. When I go to make the transition from heel to toe I rise up out of my turn and let my legs "swing" or as Jack might put it "cross under" my body and out. I let them swing out as far as I feel comfortable and settle into my carve. I've always been better on my toeside as I stated in another post before and I think it's because I extend out further on my toeside carves than my heelside carves ( I'm working on being symmetrical) I try to keep my upper body quite and my head level as well, an old roadracing trick that Kenny Roberts first used when he was racing bikes back in the day. This also insures your line of sight is forward, looking ahead to where you want to go. Angulate at the waist as mentioned above and extend those legs!

Good luck,

Paul

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by woodman

when I transition from heelside to toeside my body seems to "swing out" from under me.

I have the exact sensation (except I'd say it was my legs swinging out, not my body), and when it happens my toesides feel beautiful and can be very tight.

But I'm actually reliant on this swing-out to do a good toeside. My first turn in any run is nearly always a heelside, and if I have been running straight down the hill my next turn will also be a heelside. If I try a toeside in these situations it is always very weak and shallow.

Basically, I can crank a heelside in any situation, but cranking a toeside requires a well-finished heelside first. It's kinda frustrating.

[gkanai]

I need to visit your hill and go riding with you because I can't seem to get my heelside down well. I'm much more comfortable with my toeside.

One problem is (I think) that my angles are such that I am dragging either boots or bindings.

I had a few falls up at Shizukuishi where I was really moving on my heelside and the board just jumped out from under me and I went spinning on my back like a turtle. My friends loved it :D

So I am going to crank the angles and maybe get a new set of hard boots/bindings too. I think this Volkl Cross can take them.

[Baka Dasai]

Send me a mail if you wanna meet up and go riding up here in Tochigi or Fukushima. I'll be going up for the day on Sunday - if you need transport I could pick you up from the station.

[gkanai]

Cool! Thanks for the offer. I dropped you an email. Sunday may/may not be good. I'll try to reach you on Sat to confirm either way.

[Guest woodman]

I think I do the same thing? I'll have to try a toeside from a starting position next time I'm out. I too usually initiate my runs by grinding in with a heelside carve first. Guess I just never paid attention to it. BTW I finally scored a Sims Burner, the red & black model like I'd seen on the Japanese websites. It's AWESOME!!! I'll post some pic's when I get done wiping the drool off of it.....:D

Good carving,

Paul

[Guest Mark Jeangerard]

Originally posted by Baka Dasai

Basically, I can crank a heelside in any situation, but cranking a toeside requires a well-finished heelside first. It's kinda frustrating.

Wow, I have the same thing too. I've gotta try starting on toes with an observer to see if I can sort what it is.

Abec 11s, Baka?

[John Gilmour]

I want to go carve Japan- what is it like? I can get a flight to Narita for $409.

Is there anyway I can do some demo so my lift tickets and lodging are covered?

Here is my toeside formula. For goofy footers- reverse left/right for regular

I just taught a Physical Therapist Ethan Jerome it yesterday- it seemed to work extremely well for him- even on an old Burton speed wide tanker- he even got a hoot from the chairlift.

1. Using your front ankle and shin, drive your front knee up the center line of the board.

2. Using your rear ankle and shin, drive the rear knee up the center line of the board.

3. Center your hips forward

4. Get low putting your rear knee right behind the front knee.

5. Fold your body sinking over the middle of the board. Ass Down directly over the center of the board

6. (We'll do this one early IT IS IMPORTANT- or you might forget to do it later- and after the apex of the turn it is wayyyy too late) with your rear elbow raised as high as your shoulder- and remember that you have brought this elbow more forward as your hips are turned more forward to the front of the board .

I have found the more ridiculous the imagery- the easier it is for people to remember it. I'm sure everyone will think I'm nuts- ha ha ha- at least those who don't think so already. lol.

I want you to pretend you are carrying a Goldfish in a small sandwich ziplock baggie in your rear hand. Your mission is to keep that baggie away from the snow . If you hold the baggie directly under the elbow- you might burst it, if you hold it too close to your armpit it could get caught there and burst, so keep that shoulder up and that baggie halfway between your elbow and armpit but lifted wrist (remember it is a ziplock) down to near arm height.

A picture would be worth a 1000 words. (It I teach this drill at the expression session I might have to use live goldfish- you burst the bag...Its FEAR FACTOR time. (In Japan that might be Sushi, :p ) A picture of that might be worth a $1000 .

7. Now bring your rear pectoral muscle (Janet Jackson would snag her piercings) forward and down as close to the snow as you can- all while saving that goldfish! Rember WRIST DOWN- but baggie up! (it will protect your shoulder from too much external rotation!) Try rotating your arm up while sitting at your keyboard with your shoulder in this position- you will see what I mean. Its wacky body mechanics ....I know. Your goal is to get that rear pec as close to the snow as possible while in this compressed position while saving the goldfish.

Feel contorted? You are probably doing it right. It is really hard to do this statically without being on a board and moving ( you thought yoga was hard?)

8. Now we are ready to tip the board- you have been centered the entire time doing this. Quickly and agressively tip the board using at first the tops of your boots. Then when nearing the apex of the turn attempt to drag your rear outer shin on the snow - it is okay to move your knee out towards the snow- but more so focus on dragging that shin. Keep that rear pec forward and down!

9. Concentrate ALL ALL ALL your weight on toes 4 and 5 (that little toe was good for something other than stubbing it into chair legs) in your rear boot as if trying to press the front of those toes into the ground (not the underside of the toes- but the fronts.

(> Analyse that super deep sicko trench you made. See if there is any waviering after the apex- if so add more rear shin and knee.

You'll be doing a super u-turn up hill with this manuever- YOU MUST MUST MUST give people extra room and time to react to you as your distances will vanish astonishingly quickly as you move uphill. Head on collisions are not what you came to the resort to do.

If you try this I guarantteeeeeeeee you will feel the effect of a deeper trench and a more laid over carve. :cool:

IF you lose this thread- you'll always be able to find it again through search word "goldfish"

________

Club of america

[Guest stoked]

looking forward to that picture :)

I found it easier to carve toeside in the beginning but then neglected it for a long time mainly because I have (had) a weaker back foot and I don't need the back foot much on heelside turns.

I happened to see a surfing movie and was inspired by a toeside bottom turn that I thought could be done on snow. It's more like the swing feet out ass in the air thing I guess.

Anyway I it's one way among others for good feeling toesides that I 'discovered' that way, hope to get it right in other ways too sometime.

Bernhard

http://stoked.at

[Guest stoked]

9. Concentrate ALL ALL ALL your weight on toes 4 and 5 (that little toe was good for something other than stubbing it into chair legs) ...

Thanks! I tried that today and it worked,

Bernhard

[Baka Dasai]

Mark,

Yep, abec 11s on a Loaded Fish. Bought it last summer - my first skateboard after a 25 year break.

John,

Japan has more snow than it knows what to do with. My <a href="http://www.hunter.co.jp">local mountain</a> is pretty good for carving - widish slopes and fantastic grooming. Every run is carpet smooth every morning.

But there are a lot better places, especially if you're looking for powder. <a href="http://www.niseko-hirafu.com">Niseko</a> (up in Hokkaido) has the most reliable lift-served powder anywhere in the world - it basically snows continuously throughout January and February. Great tree runs. Some parts of Niigata are similar, but the snow there is probably a bit heavier (temps are warmer).

Don't know anything about doing a deal for free lifts etc...

[Maciek]

That's why you have to pinch your rib cage (stack it on pelvis) and not fancy with diving into snow. See my avatar. It is done on short board and on flat slope, but at steeper slope and on longer board angulation would be higher... yet upper body should stay high and straight up (not dive into snow for no reason other than balance).

Ever wanted to see the difference between "norm" and fancy carving? This is the one and that's why toeside feels so weak.

Ride norm then and don't create new "norm". It feels really powerful to degree that feet feel like they are overstraigned (in high angulation of course) and could give up. Try to stand on toes and force yourself to stay always up. No bending at waist under any circumstances. You will have time to do that... when you fall. But if you do that then you will fall certainly. That's how it works with edge balance.

It's difficult. It took me two years. Even now when away from snowboarding for longer periods I make this mistake when getting into shape and during warm up runs. I guess that's a natural fear of something that might go wrong. But it will not if you try doing it right.

[NateW]

This business with keeping the upper body upright really helped my toeside turns. All this time I've been trying to keep my upper body leaned inward at the angle of inclination, both toeside and heelside... I have no problem doing that toeside, but it's also the reason my toesides tend to be wider. I went riding last Sunday (first day since my sprain on new-year's) and tried to keep my upper body upright during toesides, same as it is on heelsides. 'Pinch the spare tire,' as someone put it.

Presto... my toesides are as tight as my heelsides. At least, I have it for quick back-and-forth cross-under carving. For long 180-degree carves on steeper slopes I still have some work to do, but at least now I know what to work on. Thanks for the discussion, everybody.

[philw]

I see a lot of what seems to be to be "diving" in some of the videos available on the web. I know it's a deliberate "style" thing for the extreme-carving chappies. To me it just looks weird... like someone is deliberately diving for the snow part way through a perfectly good carve. Each to their own.

For me the carve is a fairly smooth and progressive thing; there's no need or room for a sudden dive for the snow. If anything it feels more like the board and my legs are angulated, but my upper body remains pretty quiet, irrespective of toe or heel side.

Perhaps I'm just not going fast enough to need whatever that might give you, but then I'm not getting overtaken by divers either...

Hmm. I wonder what angle to the snow boards actually make during carves, and are these related to the turn radius and speed, or to turn style? Is there an optimum angle for a turn?