heelside turns

[Guest brad]

Anyone have any thoughts on how to keep from chattering out on heelsides? I'm in my second year of carving and I'm working my way off the easier terrain where everything seems to be clicking just fine, but on intermmediate terrain I have a tendency to skip out on heelsides. I can't seem to find any more angles that I can compress/flex to absorb the pressure being built in the turn. I'm back on my softies for a while while this softball size bruise on my butt heals. Thanks.

Brad

[Gecko]

fresh legs and good conditions...At the start of the day I can do everything I'm supposed to to turn properly (when I set my mind to it anyway) as the day progresses I seek smooth and easier terrain. By the End of the day my legs are usually thrashed enough that the only thing I can navigate with any polish are green circles...It all comes down to Practice. I pretty much start the day on the steepest groom I can find (baring a powder day) and let the conditions dictate where I go.

[Steve Dold]

I just saw in some video taken of me that when I begin to turn the board on its heelside edge, I sometimes skid the tail out at the beginning. This makes my turn start out as a skidding turn, and I'm trying to set the edge and carve during the turn's progression, which is futile. The board just chatters.

I'm not sure how to fix it yet but you might check to see if you're doing it too.

[ssteff]

hello,

you can put your back-foot-binding more to the toe-side (0,2-0,3cm):

this will increase grip at the beginning of the backside-turn:

hope this will help you.

greetz,

stef

[Jack M]

Do you ride with your knees stuck together? That can be a common problem. Here is an article that talks about that.

Also, it is important to make sure that you are using the whole edge. As speed builds it is very easy to get defensive and stay in the back seat. Make sure that you really get forward and set the nose into the carve at the beginning of each turn. As the turn comes around, you can smoothly shift back to pressure the whole edge. Something that helps to get forward is to drive your back hand forward and down over the nose throughout the turn. You should be able to see both your hands in front of you.

It is also important at higher speeds to make the edge change happen as quickly as possible. That maximizes the time the board is actually carving, which gives you the most control over your speed. Here is an article that talks about that.

-Jack

[joecarve]

Brad -

I know what those feel like...used hammer my front hip all the time falling on heelside.

Do a search for "heelside'...there's plenty of discussion on this in the last couple months. You're probably doing one or more of the following:

- You're not bending as deep in the knees as you think you are. Really, those hard hits mean you're falling a long way, from a tall standing position.

- You're looking downhill, across the board, on heelside - look into the turn. Exaggerate this if it helps. You want to get those shoulders square to the nose and keep them there...if you're looking across the board when you fall, your shoulders are likely "opened up", in line with the board, instead of square to the nose.

- You're not angulating enough at the waist. Reach as hard as you can for rail, at a point in between your boots.

- Less likely than the above, but possible: You're riding too much on your back foot at the beginning of the turn. Try to stay centered between your bindings all the way through the turn.

(Edit: Looks like Jack and I were typing simultaneously. Nevertheless, my claim is to not worry about shifting your weight back at the end of the turn....work on this after you're already turning nicely on heelside. If you stay centered for the time being, that's one less thing to try to keep in your head.

Also, his reference to driving the hand down across the nose accomplishes the same thing as reaching for the rail. I actually now ride like this, but as a novice, the rail-reach made more sense to me somehow)

joe...

[Guest Jagger]

Jack after re reading the cross over under through thread I have a ? about the cross under . How do you know your'e doing it right I've been working on working from the hips down with tight carves (Extremely tight like an SL line, tight s'es appx 5-8 ft wide and geting good lines.) Is this what I am looking for? Or am I miss understanding the article?

Mike

[Jack M]

that sounds like you're doing the cross-under just fine. When you're making edge changes happen with your knees and ankles, that's basically cross-under. Now apply that to larger gs-style carves, and you'll have cross-through.

-Jack

[Guest brad]

These replies are fantastic, thanks for the info and the link to some of the older threads. I'm heading out tomorrow to try some new things and I'll report back, hopefully without a new bruise. Thanks again and anymore thoughts would be appreciated.

[lonerider]

I'm working on my heelsides as well. I'm having trouble getting the angulation I need. Looks like I have to bend forward at the waist more and turn more shoulders more perpendicular with the board, anything else? Any tips on getting more angulation?

I have some videos of me, here you can see that I'm sticking my butt out a lot.

AVI / MOV

After seeing my video, I tried correcting that by standing up staighter and using Randy S's suggestion to try and touch my back boot cuff with my back hand on heelsides. That definitely improved it a little, but I'm still not getting good angulation I. I feel like if I try to turn harder, I'm unable to maintain constant heavy pressure on the board and it starts "hopping" along in the turn. Based on looking at other photos, I'm definitely not leaning my weight forward enough and I suspect that my tail is slipping out, but I'll leave you guys to judge.

Next day:

First Run

Follow Cam 1

Run 1

Follow Run 2

Mainly I think I just need more practice as I haven't even gotten a week on hardboots/alpine board yet, and it's a decent change from my softboot setups. However, I'm just wondering if anyone sees me doing something obviously wrong.

Thanks for all the help!

[Jack M]

I would forget about the back boot cuff thing, I don't think it's working for you. Your shoulders appear to be in-line with the board - you want your chest facing more forward. You're not comitting to the heelside carve. Try driving your rear hand forward and down over the nose at the beginning of your heelside carve and continue driving it forward for the duration of the carve. It should feel almost like you're pulling the carve around with your back hand. You want to be able to see your back hand out in front of you throughout the carve in your peripheral vision. Bend your knees, and weight your front foot more at the beginning of the carve. Other tricks are to grab the front of your front boot cuff with your back hand, or to touch your back elbow to the top of your front knee.

Also, <i>look</i> where you want the carve to go - <b>NOT</b> just downhill.

I also think you're going too fast, as evidenced by the near downhill-edge-catch in one of the movies. Those hurt. Bad. You have almost no edge angle on heelside, and consequently you make a broad turn which allows too much speed to build. Then you have to deal with it on toeside. Comitting to the carve, cranking up the edge angle, and making a rounder, shorter radius carves on both sides will control your speed.

-Jack

[forrest]

I've been having a bit of trouble with my heelside turns. I've been thinking that this may due to my having front toe lift and back cant. It feels as though i'm just not able to put enough pressure down on my heel edge. This may be a problem of using ski boots. I've adjusted my disks to be more impartial or a little biased to the heel edge so i'll see how that works. Does anyone else have a similar problem or idea of what I may be doing wrong. I think my form is generally pretty good.

[Jack M]

Go ahead and experiment, but I don't think the toe lift is your problem. I don't believe ski boots can relax their forward lean as much as snowboard boots, so I think you'll need the toe lift in there for your mobility and comfort.

Make sure you start each heelside with a solid move forward, to set the nose in the carve. Really dive into it and be comitted. Look where you want to go. Drive forward with your rear hand. Is there an echo in here??

[Guest Digger]

A heelside photo(not me). Note where the hands and shoulders are facing. Look and DRIVE into that turn and angulate the boards edge.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

I would forget about the back boot cuff thing, I don't think it's working for you. Your shoulders appear to be in-line with the board - you want your chest facing more forward. You're not comitting to the heelside carve. Try driving your rear hand forward and down over the nose at the beginning of your heelside carve and continue driving it forward for the duration of the carve. It should feel almost like you're pulling the carve around with your back hand. You want to be able to see your back hand out in front of you throughout the carve in your peripheral vision. Bend your knees, and weight your front foot more at the beginning of the carve. Other tricks are to grab the front of your front boot cuff with your back hand, or to touch your back elbow to the top of your front knee.

Also, <i>look</i> where you want the carve to go - <b>NOT</b> just downhill.

I also think you're going too fast, as evidenced by the near downhill-edge-catch in one of the movies. Those hurt. Bad. You have almost no edge angle on heelside, and consequently you make a broad turn which allows too much speed to build. Then you have to deal with it on toeside. Comitting to the carve, cranking up the edge angle, and making a rounder, shorter radius carves on both sides will control your speed.

-Jack

Yea, I think the back boot cuff thing helped keep me from sticking my butt out, but isn't enough for the angulation. I am going to go back to trying to get my back hang around my front knee or one of the variants you suggested (front cuff, back hand / front knee, back elbow).

I've been trying to look into my turn more, but I think the lack of angulation/shoulder turn is messing me up. The speed issue makes sense too because I feel fine on toeside, but then wash out a bit on heelside. I will try a more mellow slope.

Could you define "edge angle" to you mean edge inclination? I'm trying to get it more, but I feel like my body mechanics are incorrect (mostly I'm having trouble realigning my shoulders).

Thanks for all the info, I will try it out the next time I go out.

[NateW]

Two things...

First, to Brad, who started this thread: try carving with your weight further forward. Just put more weight on your front leg in whatever way is comfortable, and see if that helps. If it does help, you can either adjust your style to keep more weight on that leg, or move your bindings forward to get the same weight distribution with no change in posture.

Not to disparage any of the advice given so far... it's good, and should be considered even if this does solve your current problem. It's just that weight shift is really easy to experiment with, so I think it's worth trying out.

I had trouble with the back of my board skidding out a year or two ago, found that leaning forward helped, moved my bindings forward and liked that better than leaning forward. My heelsides improved a lot. I'll probably move my bindings around once or twice more before I'm satisfied.

And the other thing....

The guy in that photo looks to me like he's got his hips too far to the inside.

I ride similarly, and have been working on getting my shoulders lower down, my spine lined up with the board, my butt up higher and over the back of the board. I always considered this butt-down shoulders-up posture to be something I should work on, but in the last couple months I've been seeing it a lot in photos posted to this site. I was gonna bring this up in the 'post your pictures' thread, but kept putting it off... and this thread is a more appropriate place.

I have to ask - am I taking the butt-over-the-board thing too far, or am I right in thinking that I (and the guy in the photo) need to work on aiming the spine forward, keeping the butt up, and getting the shoulders lower and more forward?

[Guest Mark Jeangerard]

I'm in the same boat with Nate and Keith. When I drop my hip on heelside my butt usually comes out of allignment with the board. It seem to be more prominent in crossover turns. I have been working on keeping my butt over the board but it usually ends up being more of a stand-upish kind of thing. I wonder if I am reaching with my hip in the same way I might reach with my hand on the toe side, a confidence move of sorts.

I was freakin' movin' on some hard pack in this picture.

[Bobby Buggs]

Mark, get that back side arm, your right one over the heel side edge. It will rotate your shoulders and things will come back into alignment. when getting the heelside dialed in think about a bit of torso twist to get your shoulders around into the trun. If you start on the top the bottom seems to follow.

If you put that back side arm on your front knee you will get the twist Im talking about.

you gonna be at the session??

[Guest Mark Jeangerard]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to move my rear hand over the heelside. It's written everywhere around here and still... :-)

Unfortunately I got a really good opportunity in my summer carreer and need to take advantage an offer that moves me up the ladder in Feb and March. So I won't make SES. I will be at Aspen on the 22nd though. (Provided I can find it.)

If I kick ass at my job, I should be able to start refusing winter work again within a few years.

[Baka Dasai]

Here's my simple formula to snap you out of your "soft-boot, shallow-angle style".

Before heading down the slope, put your hands out in front of you, on either side of the board, at about waist height. There is no front hand or back hand anymore, just right and left. This is your reference position. Keep those hands out in front - you should be able to see them at all times.

When doing a toeside turn, drop your left hand and shoulder down to the snow while raising your right hand and shoulder.

When doing a heelside turn, drop your right hand and shoulder down to the snow, while raising your left hand and shoulder.

Always come back to the reference position, and never let your hands sneak behind you.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by lonerider

Could you define "edge angle" to you mean edge inclination? I'm trying to get it more, but I feel like my body mechanics are incorrect (mostly I'm having trouble realigning my shoulders).

Edge angle, edge inclination, I think we're talking about the same thing. It's just how high you tilt your board up relative to the snow.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by NateW

The guy in that photo looks to me like he's got his hips too far to the inside.

I don't think so. Actually I was going to say what a nice heelside example it is. His butt is actually mostly over the board - meaning that if you draw a line from his heelside edge to his left hip, it is nearly perpendicular to the board. A carve like this may not hold on <i>ice</i>, but for this type of snow it's a fine carve.

-Jack

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Bobby Buggs

Mark, get that back side arm, your right one over the heel side edge. It will rotate your shoulders and things will come back into alignment. when getting the heelside dialed in think about a bit of torso twist to get your shoulders around into the trun. If you start on the top the bottom seems to follow.

If you put that back side arm on your front knee you will get the twist Im talking about.

Did Mark change the picture after you posted this? Looks like he's got his right arm over the heelside edge just fine. I'd say this is another good heelside example. Shoulders level, butt over the board, hands driving into the carve, looking into the carve..... except... Mark, are you rockin' a ONE-PIECE?!?

[brodster_57]

I agree with you Jack on your analysis of the pix. They looked pretty clean to me. Lol, this is why I never put a pic of me on here. I don't want everyone pulling out their micrometers and such and picking my apart! J/K. Anyways yesterday was my third day back on a race/carving board in almost 1.5 seasons (I still don't know what I was thinking in stopping for that long), and I rode at Mission Ridge for the first time ever. Anyways since it has been so long and I have been spending my time on soft boots and low angles I have been spending almost all my time regaining strength, balance, and technique. I noticed I was having similar problems on my heelside when I hit hard snow or was really getting low or hauling. I did all the hand gestures, elbow lift, angluation and the works. My problem was simply (even though I though I was looking good) was that my body weight was not over the board. Finally I was getting the body weight dialed in again and my toesides were just as I remembered(if not better.) On my heelsides I was feeling as If I couldn't just drive in my boots right with my knees. So on the heelside turn I rotated my body into the turn slighty to counter that nasty butt hang and it hooked up like a champ. I realized my butt was (sigh) not where it was supposed to be.

Which actually brings me to a question for Jack or some of the others. As far as I remember rotating into the turn (especially excessive amounts) is not good right? However I find it necessary to rotate into my heelside turn slighty to counter my hip and butt from dangling out of its ideal position. Maybe it is just that I am not used to keeping it where it should be. Oh well, just happy I am carving again (and my body is aching!)

[BobD]

One the things that's normally brought up in these heelside chatter discussions, is twisting the board, so that each end is carving a different arc. This was the case for me and was cured by riding with my boots in the free position. With the chatter gone, I was then (and still am ) able to work on all the other elements. What is intresting to me, is that I can now ride in the locked position again. It seems that I am now able to flex the boots the right way, proberbly helped by the other improvements, gained since removing the chatter.

Bob Dodds