Binding Rigidity (soft boots/high backs)

[carvin29]

Hey,

I'm new here, I guess I should introduce myself. 29 years old, riding since Jan 1990. Ride stiff freeride boards, not race boards, with soft boots. But love carvin, its the best.

Anyway, I;m getting a new setup this year. Burton T6, I hear its the Bee's Knee for carving. But not sure about bindings. Looking at C60 or P1. What I;m having trouble understanding is the whole binding "responsiveness" ratings. I've heard alot of stuff saying the C60 is good for carving but worry it will make for a punishing day on the mountain due to the stiffness.

The thing is, I would think a binding that is more flexible, like the P1, would dampen out some of the stiffness on a board like the T6. But people keep telling me to get the C60.

So I need some expert opinions. :)

[jtslalom]

Carvin29,

I don't have alot of experience soft riding. I rode soft from 88 to about 90. This is my second year back on a soft board since about 1990/91. I have been riding hard boots since then but decided to go back to soft riding after riding with a friend up in Vermont who never really rode hard boots. He has been riding since 1985 and can carve a soft deck better than most guys I've seen on hard decks. Any way I just bought a ride timeless with Burton Ruler boots and Burton Cartel LTD bindings. The boot binding interface is considered 6/7 stiffness rating respectively. The board is considered the siffest that ride makes along with the Yukon. Compared to my older soft riding equipment the new stuff is much stiffer. All I can say is that I thought the old stuff was pretty good. The old stuff (circa 2000) is a K2 Fatbob with Low end Ride bindings and Snowjam boots. All I can tell you is I turn that stuff almost as well as my hard stuff. I can't even imagine what my new soft stuff will be like. I think its more riding than equipment that makes your carving good. If I were you I would go with the C60 bindings. They are the siffest soft bindings Burton makes and rated a 10 for stiffness. It would probably be the closest soft binding you could get to hard plates. As far as making a punishing day for riding, I think your wrong. Compared to hard plates, there is NO soft binding that gives you the responsiveness like hard bindings. If you want to carve hard your knees will be punished whether your on soft bindings or hard. What is generally meant by responsivesness is the ability of your binding to react with your board. As soon as you start turning (carving) your board and point your toes up on a heel side turn, you want your boot to push up on your binding which in turn pushes or pulls up on your board. The stiffer the boot and binding the less slop or play there is between all three. This is why people usually hard ride. They like the quick response the boot/binding/board interface makes. I personally think that todays soft boards, boots and bindings are plenty good enough and stiff enough to react to a turn.The Burton Cartell bindings I have are a 7. To me it really dosen't matter. I will carve my cartells as well as I would any other soft binding. If your C60 are a little stiffer, you will have a split second quicker reaction time to your turns. Either way booth set ups are still soft binding setups. Compared to hard plates they won't perform as well. Again, who cares, as long as you can carve well on a soft deck, whats the difference between a 7 or 10 stiffness on soft bindings. Do yourself a favor though, don't think for a minute that the slight difference in some soft bindings is dramatic. It's all about your riding, but go with the stiffer C60's. I think you'll like the response and maybe soon after you will join the hard riders and get yourself a hard setup.

Good Luck

[bobdea]

unless the P1 was dramatically softened and the C series got WAY stiffer than past years I'd be amazed if the C60 is as stiff as what they rate it as since it's a direct decendant of the older bindings like the C14 and mission, niether of which are terribly ridgid but none the less incredible bindings

I think their rating is more a way of justifying the price

catek freerides are worth a look if you're gonna drop that much coin as are the nidecker 900s

I'm riding catek stuff allot these days they make killer softboot bindings and great plates as well.

they are all extremley good bindings, you've lots of choices when it comes to softboot bindings

ohh yeah, the high end Ride stuff is damn good as well.

[ak_rider]

if your board ist stiff you're looking at a stiff binding you can get away with a softer boot-so maybe wont kill you on the hill. dont know much about burton-other than they're over priced, but if you're not totally hung up on burton look at ride bindings, all metal, nice stiffness and quick response. IMO Ride makes better carving softboot equip, especially their bindings.

[JJFluff]

The T6 is a great carving board. I ride one when I'm not on a alpine board and it it carves and snaps like an alpine board. I just ride it with a middle of the line pair of burton bindings, and some moto boots. I still can't understand why people hate burton so much. Their gear is reliable, thats for sure.

[alpinegirl]

http://www.psia.org/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=199&posts=39&start=1

if you need a laugh, copy and paste that

[lonerider]

Hey,

I'm new here, I guess I should introduce myself. 29 years old, riding since Jan 1990. Ride stiff freeride boards, not race boards, with soft boots. But love carvin, its the best.

Anyway, I;m getting a new setup this year. Burton T6, I hear its the Bee's Knee for carving. But not sure about bindings. Looking at C60 or P1. What I;m having trouble understanding is the whole binding "responsiveness" ratings. I've heard alot of stuff saying the C60 is good for carving but worry it will make for a punishing day on the mountain due to the stiffness.

The thing is, I would think a binding that is more flexible, like the P1, would dampen out some of the stiffness on a board like the T6. But people keep telling me to get the C60.

So I need some expert opinions. :)

What everyone said before me is good stuff. I have the P1MDs and they are great freestyle/powder binding, but I don't recommend them as a primary carving bindings as they are too flexy. I assume the current P1 is between the older HD and MD models so it should be better. Nevertheless I still carve quite a bit in my P1MD on my Madd Twin Tip 158. Here are some photos of me in them (you can see the arc in the background on the first photo)

http://tinyurl.com/hm2z9

http://tinyurl.com/f96pd

http://tinyurl.com/fnq6u

The C60 are probably better for pure carving, but with stiffness comes "harshness" where all the vibrations of a "lively" board can be fatiguing. While stiffer gear (board/bindings) are prone to harshness, you can get stiff bindings that are more damp. I like the Nideckers (I have 800 Pro, 900 are even more carving oriented) because they have a built shock-absorbing pad that really dampens out the harshness of a responsive board. If you are going Burton, make sure you get 3D disks though (mine are not compatible) as Nidecker's disks are much thicker than normal disks.

As mentioned, you pretty much can't get a binding that's so stiff that it's punishing... the notable exception for me (152 lbs) would be the Catek Freerides. I had them for a season and they were very harsh to me and when I would try to charge through bumps I would thrown around a bit (on smooth snow they have great responsiveness and unmatched edging power).

[carvin29]

The C60 are probably better for pure carving, but with stiffness comes "harshness" where all the vibrations of a "lively" board can be fatiguing.

Thats exactly what worries me. I demoed some P1's last season and was amazed by the comfort. Couple this with the fact I just realized the C60's dont come with the really nice "superstrap" and I have a dilemma.

JTSlalom- Did you ride Vernon Valley back in the day? I learned to ride there, along with Shawnee.

[lonerider]

Thats exactly what worries me. I demoed some P1's last season and was amazed by the comfort. Couple this with the fact I just realized the C60's dont come with the really nice "superstrap" and I have a dilemma.

JTSlalom- Did you ride Vernon Valley back in the day? I learned to ride there, along with Shawnee.

It you ridden the P1s and like them, then go for them. Trust you instincts as you have plenty of experience to judge the quality of bindings. I still carve in my P1MDs and I can physically twist them off the board slightly if I pull my boot up hard enough. Even though they are a bit flexy (my next pair will be stiffer), they are still a decent bindings and I have owned Catek Freerides, unquestionably the stiffest binding made to date (all machined aluminum), so I have experienced the benefits of having an ultra-stiff binding for carving.

[carvin29]

Can you describe a little more the experience of using an ultra stiff binding, versus a P1?

[bobdea]

really have a a ride that is startling when you hit the unexpected bumps or death cookie

very loud and jaring, similar to the first time I hit such a thing on my td1s after riding burton plates

however that does not mean I prefer the plastic bindings just means they are different and the ridgid bindings keep you awake

[jtslalom]

carvin29,

I started in the 88/89 season at Vernon Valley/ Great George. I rode with a couple of guys named Dennis Connor, Shawn Orechio, Rick Garden and a guy named Jay Westeveld. There were alot of other guys too and most ripped. Dennis and Shawn had been riding for a few years already and Jay and Rick started that year. Both Jay and Shawn rode for Hot on the Cross-M team at Donner ski ranch years later. Shawn is still around but really doesn't ride any more. He designs the park and pipe for Mountain Creek. I saw Jay last year and went for a couple runs with him. He had been in Europe some where for the last couple of years. Rick lives down in south Jersey some where and Dennis is the guy I made reference to in the reply above. He lives in Vermont and still RIPS. Both Dennis and Shawn ripped and were carving awesome lines back in the late 80's on crappy freestyle boards. Most the guys back then were carving good lines on crappy equipment. Hence from my post above, it's not about the equipment but more the rider. It definately helps to have better stuff but if you can carve well, you can do it on ANYTHING.

[Rob Stevens]

We used to have a lot of fun on boards with no highbacks and velcro straps, but I wouldn't be that into it now if I had to give up my Burton C's.

To compliment the feeling of stiffness under the foot, I may try Burtons vibram soled boot this year. It still has a reasonably soft ankle, which should still allow you to feather the edge. My old Koflach Hunters (ice climbing double boot w/ soft ankle) really used to make up for flexy baseplates with their rigid soles... could both be what we've been waiting for?

I thought the P1 was a good binder, but had too many fiddles on it... I prefer to set it and forget it, so things like quick release forward lean scare me a bit.

The one gripe I have about Burton bindings of any kind are the fat heel loops on their baseplates. They tend to drag in the snow at higher heelside edge angles.

A good trade off is the Bent Metal Carbon (from Mervin). The high, flat heel loop provides lots of heelside edge angle and may allow the elusive "duckfoot EC" on a frontside turn.

I'm still working on the abdominals that might get me there.

On the primitive side of things, if you hate foot pain and ride alot of pow, you must Noboard.

A question about your all aluminum soft bindings (Catek)... how heavy are they compared to the carbon Burtons? if they're much heavier, I would go with the light choice.

[carvin29]

It looks more and more like I will be getting the C60's. :)

[Bullwings]

You should also take a look at Nidecker Carbon 900's. I would not rule out those soft bindings.

[lonerider]

We used to have a lot of fun on boards with no highbacks and velcro straps, but I wouldn't be that into it now if I had to give up my Burton C's.

I thought the P1 was a good binder, but had too many fiddles on it... I prefer to set it and forget it, so things like quick release forward lean scare me a bit.

The one gripe I have about Burton bindings of any kind are the fat heel loops on their baseplates. They tend to drag in the snow at higher heelside edge angles.

A question about your all aluminum soft bindings (Catek)... how heavy are they compared to the carbon Burtons? if they're much heavier, I would go with the light choice.

I didn't find the quick-release forward lean on the P1 that scary (no chance of injury) and I actually broke mine (was replaced quickly for free by Burton).

Looking at this year's C60 more closely, I think they will be an excellent ride and I doubt they will be a harsh ride. However at $360... you are definitely paying a lot (even the P1's are $270). For that much I would recommend looking at the Nideckers bindings (800 Pro or 900) as they are also excellent bindings (although I don't think they have 3D patterns if you are planning on getting a Burton T6 board).

The Catek Freerides are a bit heavier than regular bindings, I think they would be noticeably heavier than the C60s. If you are a heavier individual, then I suspect the effects of the weight difference is small. Bigger than average people also seem to be less sensitive to the NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) of the Freerides.

[D-Sub]

my man! See attached pic! It is your friend!

[carvin29]

A guy at my shop was showing me the nidecker bindings- the straps looked super comfortable and they have that layer of shock abosrbing material on the bottom. But Ive always been a Burton binding guy, so I;m going to get them.

People keep telling me the C60's will make a great free carve binding so I cant wait to get on the snow :)

[Carp]

So many threads on softies lately. I can't imagine this many people on this site riding softies, but funny it's actually what I've been contemplating since Jan. (my last week out). I've been riding since 87/88. I rode soft initially between the old Burton 3 strap (darth vadar bindings on a safari), and burton air bindings on an Asym air. In 90/91 went for the plates with Burton Megaflex and PJ7. Rode an alp in there too at some point. Now I'm on a Donek FC with TD2 and also have Salomon FRS with TD1. Boots are the Indy's (orange). From everything I've read it sounds like softies have come along way in that the manufacturers are providing much stiffer interfaces in their softboot line up. It almost seems like snowboarding could be moving toward 1 sport instead of the 2 it's been for so long. It would be nice (although unrealistic) to see today's riders dabbling in other aspects of the sport in competition like in the good old days. I'd like to know what the stiffest softboot and binding set up is. I've been leaning toward FLO bindings with the Salomon Malmutte(sp?) I may have all my hard gear up for sale if I can make enough on it to get close to getting a new/used complete softie set up. It's been SOOO long since I've ridden softies I think it could only improve my HB riding to go back for awhile.

[Rob Stevens]

Carp;

Go to a Burton dealer and have them mount up some C60's with their new Vibram soled Moto (I think that's the model).

The ankle is reasonably stiff, but it's the sole of the boot that will eliminate foot pain because you won't have to crank the instep strap as much to keep your heel down. Edging forces are also supported by the shank, rather than you having to stiffen your arch.

I guess you could retrofit a plastic tongue of some kind under the laces if you found the forward lean wasn't supportive enough.

Modern "spoilers" or backstays seem to hold up and not crease as much as they used to. Burton was a big offender in this regard, with ThirtyTwo being the best for overall long-term durability, in my opinion anyway.

If your knees can handle it, I would also give a bit of duck a try (in the -5 range or so), with a higher than average (for soft) front angle to aid steering.

My angles are around 30 to 35 and 0 to -5. This is a very comfortable stance for me that allows strong carving and amazing absorbtion.

[jtslalom]

D-Sub,

One constant stream of thought. I was an engineering turned math major. I can barely read, can't really speak well and certainly can't write let alone punctuate correctly. The last thing I can do is seperate my thoughts by creating paragraphs. I also have trouble extending my right hand pinky.

Carp, don't do it dude. Keep your hard gear around for a while and slowly pick up soft riding. I'm sure there

will

be

times

you'll

want

to

get

back

on

it.

Like this D-Sub.

[110/220V]

:-/

:-i

[D-Sub]

D-Sub,

One constant stream of thought. I was an engineering turned math major. I can barely read, can't really speak well and certainly can't write let alone punctuate correctly. The last thing I can do is seperate my thoughts by creating paragraphs. I also have trouble extending my right hand pinky.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

heh. well...you have plenty to say, and it is pertinent, just incredibly hard to read, and I picture a tweaker when Im readin it ;)

[carvin29]

Anyone else care to chime in before I drop such serious coin on some bindings?

JTSlalom- I dont know if you remember- but in 1990, there was this guy at Vernon Valley, I think he was the local "pro" or something. I remember the local TV news did a story on him and snowboarding. One night I saw him riding a Burton race board and it looked like he was doing about 70.

[bobdea]

my personal input is Catek rocks for a few reasons

Burton is solid too but at that price you could have the cateks and some tuning gear or something