johnasmo

Love the VSR, but also have a Monster and have demoed Schtubby and NSRs of various forms at the SES. They're all pretty darn versatile, but accentuate different characteristics so the trick is to match them to your mountain and the riding you like, or have them all and match them to the snow conditions of the day. Here are my impressions of some of Bruce's work: VSR: Loves lay down back to back turns on steeper hardpack. Nose hunts a little bit when just cruising or when the snow gets soft. Can really turn this thing on a dime when you want and squirt out the other side. Don't need to drive the nose, initiates turns on its own. Twist the tail to adjust more than riding the tail. Variable flex too; really soft nose but stiffer between bindings and through the tail. Encourages you to end turns early and throw down the next one. NSR: Likes to do what the VSR does, only faster, bigger, and with more weight shift. Get on the nose to turn tight, get on the tail to open er up. More torsionally stiff (?); more shift, less twist (?). Softer in nose than tail, but not so much as the VSR. Monster: The big easy. Big variable SCRs, tighter in front than rear, but not the tight, long, medium triple play of the VSR. The flex is more uniform front to back than the VSR. Probably averages out softer than a corresponding VSR, but the flex is distributed more evenly, with softness in both nose and tail. The decambering runs back a little farther too. Will do bigger turns, but the softer and tighter radius nose lets you squeeze out tight turns when you want to for such big SCRs. Scrubs speed when doing so, which is part of what makes it so easy to ride all over the mountain. Likes to finish turns before going on to the next. Schtubby: The little easy. More uniform flex and sidecut, generally being softish throughout but with long SCRs for their size. Layed down turns get relatively tight for the sidecuts, so don't enter as fast as the above boards, but loves to slalom cruisers more than they do. Very fun and comfortable boards. Classic (aka utility stick): Think VSR without so much V. More consistent (classic, traditional) flex and sidecut. A truly classic all day, all snow condition board. A little under appreciated these days, but some days a radial sidecut DOES work best. Angry: Probably my next purchase. Big smile fun from a little package. Slow it down and just turn, turn, turn. An aerobic Schtubby. Carve on a cat track? No problem. Turn, turn, turn, giggle, giggle, giggle. But I guess he can't call it the "Happy". Think a mini-me VSR in sidecuts, though I think the flex may be more uniform (?). Bruce may respond that I'm full of **** and tell you what they're really all about, but the bottom line is that ya friggin' need ALL of them! Yet, if you can only own one, the VSR is pretty darn versatile while remaining lively in it's sweet spot. If your hill has cruisers where you like to pick up and carry a lot of speed, opt for the "turbo" package (more carbon) to stiffen it up for higher turn entry speeds. If you're cranking slower turns on the steeps, keep it playfully "plain". Time to go ride now... (day 76 of the snow sports season). Opps, forgot breakfast. Hurry, hurry... Is this a bad thread to say I also loved this year's Donek 175 FC Metal? NSR-like, with a good recreational sidecut. Tested at Buttermilk, though, with nothing steeper than Tiehack, but felt g o o d. So many boards, so little time...

Sure. Here they are: Part I. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3UgBhj6Ecs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3UgBhj6Ecs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object> Part II. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCpFPdCiTg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCpFPdCiTg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object> I've been busy throwing together SES 2010 movies too. Be sure to check out the "Aspen or Bust" thread if you like these.

Is that a legitimate rhyme? Dave, you beat me to it. Here's the embedded version. Mostly Dave, as usual, but caught James carving too. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEEN05rxlB0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEEN05rxlB0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I have a 177 M, non-turbo, and think it's a great board. It loves steep hardpack, but beware soft snow conditions. I did a full day (40,000+ vertical) at Targhee on Sunday, and it was great in the morning, but struggled once the snow got soft. Normally, I would have switched to soft gear at that point, but Dave R. and I decided to keep on carving, he on a "Classic" (I don't like the name "utility stick") and me on the VSR 177. The "Classic" proved more versatile in the soft conditions. Mind you, this was crazy soft, 5+ inch trenching conditions, but we were determined carve to last chair in the interest of science. I could have switched to my Monster, but wanted to figure out the VSR. The nose was flexing quite a bit, hunting and digging in the soft snow. Initiating turns from the back and staying in the back seat throughout the turns was necessary to keep the front under control, but then the back would push out. Perhaps due to the tighter rear radius and stiffer tail. This was a day more suited to constant sidecut and flex patterns, or whatever it is that makes the classic shape such a classic. My trenches were messy from the hunting nose and blowing out tail, but the classic's remained more normal. Bruce, is the Turbo full carbon throughout, tip to tail? I would like a firmer nose, but not really to add pop to it, nor to change behavior of the rest of the board -- would it be better to thicken the core further into the nose and stick to the non-Turbo laminate?

Here's the rest of the video from the WTF 2010. Finally got soundtracks that don't disable the youtube audio. Had too much video to trim to 10 minutes for youtube, so split it into part I and part II. Got some good follow cam of Steve in Part II first in the daylight, then again in the ever present fog -- the full Big Mountain experience. Video credits to the Ohio boys, Cuban and Shred, the Sandpoint crew, Boardski, Kram, Russ (?), Tanya. Didn't catch any runs with the Calgary crew or Steve P, sorry. And missed Kinpa too, though I think Rick and I spotted you in the chair behind us once, but due to lack of short term memory promptly headed to Ptarmigan bowl without waiting, opps. Part I: <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3UgBhj6Ecs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3UgBhj6Ecs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object> Part II: <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCpFPdCiTg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCpFPdCiTg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

I haven't seen any of the fastec's in person yet, so all I have to go on are the pictures I've seen online, but I'd say you are right that they are aiming at a ride similar to a Burton Mission or Cartel of recent vintage. K2 tried for this market with the Cinch model, but it was too complex and heavy to win the hearts of the park crowd. This one looks like it keeps the weight comparable and with Mervin Manufacturing behind it in their brands (GNU, Roxy, ??) it will likely fair better. Mervin Manufacturing has a lot of street cred with this crowd. I'll have to try some out if I get a chance, but a couple things do concern me just from looking at the pictures. First, the funny cable routing looks like it was done to lessen the amount of boot squeeze experienced when locking the highbacks in place, but the boot squeeze is part of what makes your foot feel really locked down inside the boot, so it's correcting something that I didn't consider a problem. Second, the two strap design won't offer the forward lean support that a single strap design can offer. With the ankle and toe portions of the strap coupled in a single strap design, the ankle portion of the strap can be more resistant to forward motion. In trying to make their bindings feel more like everyone else's, Flow started using an I-strap shape in recent years, which cuts out more material between the ankle and toe parts of the strap. I've found this decoupling to reduce support considerably. The only setup where I use an I-shaped strap is on a Burton Fish, where I enjoy the lack of support... er mobility. This was the last board on which I used Burton Missions. I find that the the I-shaped straps pretty much bring the Flows back down to a two-strap level of performance. So sad, but this is capitalism, and the market has spoken. If you want mega-support, you want to be looking for the old Flow Pro FR model from around 2005. It had the strap from Hell. If you want one that's still good after you're experiment with no-overhang is over, the Pro 11 of that era and its recent derivatives are all good. I haven't tried this year's M-11 with the I-shaped strap, but at least it looks more substantial above the ankle than the others.

The quick (on the go) entry is a bonus, but support and lack of heel lift are the ride-time benefits of the design. The flow design itself squeezes the boot into place with more force than typical strap-ins, which is good at preventing heel lift and contributes to the locked in feeling. Flow has a ton of models, some with rigidity and support, and some not so much. The level of rigidity and support you feel comes mostly from the size and stiffness of the strap. The stiffness of the base and highback are noticeably different on different models as well, but the strap has the most impact on the feel of the binding. If you go to a dealer, squeeze all the straps in the heel to toe direction and you'll feel the difference. The more flexible the strap is in this direction, the less supportive it will feel. I ride Flows on all my non-alpine boards. From powder to BX and everything in between. Basically, the softer the board or the snow I intend to ride with it, the softer the Flow model I'll put on that board. Nothing in their current lineup comes close to the stiffness they were putting out 5 years ago. That's actually good, though, because they had gone too far there for a couple of years; too much of a good thing can be, well, bad. Support is good, but lack of mobility kinda defeats the softboot paradigm. I think they went a bit too far the other way now, but it's what the buying public seems to want. Anyway, what you want is support against forward lean if you're going to reduce or eliminate your toe overhang (something I don't bother doing). Without overhang, you'll be working harder to lever the board over on edge when on hardpack. My experience is that having an average softboot squeezed between the highback and a stiff Flow single-piece strap ends up being more supportive than buying the stiffest softboots you can buy and using normal strap-ins with two straps. In their lineup, the bigger stiffer straps are the ones on their "freeride" models. Today, that's pretty much limited to the NXT-FRX and the M-11 models. For older models, I can recommend the "Pro 11" and its derivatives from about 2005 onward, which includes the "Pro FR" (2006) and the "The Eleven" (2007). These are reliable and slightly more supportive than the current M-11 model. You should be able to find 08 or 09 M-11's for less than $150. Flow still has some design and quality issues from model to model. Oddly enough, it's the hardware (nuts, bolts, attaching mechanisms) on their metal baseplate models (NXT-FR, Team) that give me the most problems. Their nylon/fiber models (M-11, The Eleven, Pro-11) have been pretty bullet proof. The early NXT's had some brittle ladder straps, but I think they fixed that the second year.

Ok. Now I've got 9 days and 219,000 vertical feet on my VSR 177 and am still lovin' this board. It totally rocks on steep hardpack. We haven't had much fresh snow at the local hill (Whitefish Mountain Resort, MT) in the last 3 weeks. The grooming has been good, but mild temps have meant pretty fast firm hardpack each day, and this thing just eats that up. You can turn it on a dime completing turns on the steeps, or you can open it up and slalom the cruisers, it's at home doing both. Oh, but it does like the steeps. Today I was able to carve on two winch groomed black diamonds (Big Face Chute and Heep Steep), and got a "That was amazing!" from a skier. If you've ever carved Big Mountain, think Ptarmigan Bowl and Larch, only steeper, narrower, and longer. So, after an extended get acquainted period, it's still my new favorite. I highly recommend this board.

It's a dental catastrophe waiting to happen, but it lets me use a plain old digital pocket camera (Canon SD960IS in this case) instead of a helmet cam like the GoPro. I often use a little 3 inch tripod for hand held shots, but I like my hands free when I'm carving on alpine gear. Here's the best picture I can muster while still here at the ski hill. It's Saturday, so I do day and night riding. I'm just taking a break to switch gear and I fired up the netbook to load new music on my MP3 player. WiFi connected so I just had to check BOL while my feet were warming... doesn't everyone?

Here's some of the video from the first couple of days. No soundtrack yet. I've got more footage to add, but it's time to go ride now and I probably won't get back to it until Sunday... [Early video deleted. See final videos later in this thread.]

Steve illustrates that hand position is key in a tight curve...

Seen downtown last night...

Still more...

More...

Yesterday afternoon (between 3:00 and 4:00 PM) Rick and I were doing laps down Ptarmigan Bowl when the Big Mountain Photo person showed up and snapped some good ones. The full gallery is here. These were stolen off my browser cache, but they are copyright Big Mountain Photo, LLC, and I may just have to buy a few...

Wednesday night pictures from the 'Stube. WTF crew. Frabert. Shred getting ready to demo Big Canuck's Coda tomorrow -- "Right stiff, said Shred" (RSSS)

At the end of your last run, park yourself at the Hellroaring Saloon for your first beer, or two if you buy a hat (two-fers for life if you have a hat). It's trail side, and in late Feb the outside deck might be open. Next you head down the village to the Beirstube. Since you'll be here on a Wednesday you gotta be there by 5:30 when the ski patrol gives the "Frabert" award to the clod of the week followed by "freebeer" for the rest of us. Then clean up and head downtown. Taste some good beers at the Black Star Draught House (tasting room at the Great Northern Brewery). Have a Big Fog, it's my favorite. Then head up the street to the Bulldog Saloon. No need to drink there if you're already tipsy, but draining your bladder in their restroom is a must, and it's pry time for a burger. If you're not tipsy yet, they sell gallon pitchers. Next head across the street and do shots with the locals at the Palace Bar. Then finish off the night with some live music at the Great Northern Bar (not affiliated with the Great Northern Brewery). I believe Thursdays in Feb will still have John Dunnigan playing there, a local musician who plays a good banjo and guitar and gets quite entertaining after a half dozen or so Patrón Tequilas. There are other options, but this is a tried and true local recipe.

Trenchin' Toni Matt under blue skies...

Will there be any to demo at SES 2010? I'll have soft boots with me and wouldn't mind to demo one. I assumed (and shouldn't have) that the flex must still be on the stiff side like most BX boards to handle the laid out extreme carving turns. Combining a smallish (for carving) 10 meter sidecut with a soft board seems like it would try to carve too tight when high on edge, but maybe that's the magic in the Dual's DNA.

It was late when I posted, and I realize now that it probably does come off sounding more opinionated against the board and its style of riding than I really intend it to be. It was intended to be a pro-quiver post rather than an anti-Duel post. I favor rider versatility combined with board specialization over board versatility and rider specialization. I think the Duel and boards like it will be a popular for hardbooters that like low angles, or soft booters that like high angles, but that this is a small niche within the already small carving + freeride community. I believe there are more riders in this community like myself that treat carving and freeriding almost as two different disciplines and get a more enjoyable riding experience when changing up riding style and gear between them. After being at an SES, you can see that there are many ways to ride and carve snowboards. I'm not saying there's anything wrong if you enjoy riding hardboots at low angles or softboots at high angles, but be sure you're one of those riders before spending $850+ on a board that is specialized for that market. The reason for my first post was to caution others that what is marketed as versatility in the board may not appeal to them if they are not one of the riders whose riding style is specialized to suit it. Try to demo it first. As for my personal setups, I prefer hardboots at +65/+60 for laid out carving on hardpack, and softboots at +15/-3 for freeriding the soft or cruddy stuff. I only have one softboot setup that I keep at +36/+15 for what could be called "softboot carving". These stance differences are quite substantial, and result in very different riding styles, which in turn suits them to very different boards in terms of length, stiffness, and sidecut; hence the pro-quiver attitude.

About the Duel... From their brochure: Hmm... never heard of BX? or All Mountain alpine boards? Seems to me the only thing totally new is that this time it's a Swoard brand board. Sounds like a stiff freeride shaped board. I have an F2 Eliminator that fits that bill, and there are plenty of other BX boards that fall into that category. That can translate into really good edge hold and carvability from a freeride shape, and some reasonable fresh pow surfing, but ends up sucking in the lumpy crud or tracked out powder. There's no techno-magic that can erase the compromises in sidecut and flex patterns that go with trying to make one board do it all, especially when "all" includes extreme carving. At the risk of getting flamed, I'll share my feelings about straddling the hardboot/softboot boundary with one board. Just my personal opinions here, but I am speaking as an avid soft booter and hard booter. My quiver and time on the mountain slightly favors soft booting on freeride shapes, but I also really like trenching it up in hard boots on alpine boards, so here goes... A quiver of one sounds nice on paper, but mixing extreme carving with a freeride shape seems like it will produce a board that only really shines for the first hour after first chair. Yes, it will be a good (but not great) hour whether it's fresh corduroy or a foot of untracked fresh, but once it's tracked out, you'll want to head to the bar. If it's stiff enough to extreme carve well, then even if it has a decambered nose and tail it will get thrown around by lumpy tracked out snow. Yeah, you can do it and it's even fun if you can see the bumps coming, but throw flat light or fog into the mix and you'll be cursing that unforgiving flex (as you head to the bar). I had a Donek freeride board that sounds very much like the "new" Duel, and believe me, it was not my goto board on a powder day or a foggy groomer day -- hell of a lot of fun soft boot carving fast groomers on a clear day though. If you live near a mountain and get to ride a lot, nothing beats a deep quiver. I often bring 4 to 7 boards to the hill with me and change out based on conditions. I don't always use them all, but if I stay the whole day, I often use 2 or 3 different ones. Of course, this is easier to do if you drive yourself to your local hill and parking is only a short walk from the lifts, but if that's the case, then stock up on NOS (New Old Stock) in a variety of shapes and sizes when it's on sale. Good deals are plentiful for freeride shapes, not so much for alpine. If you only get to ride a little, or can't afford a variety of boards, then settle for something that you know will be fun all day regardless of conditions, which is most likely a softish, medium length, freestyle setup. There's a reason that soft, short, decambered, freestyle boards are so popular -- they're pretty easy and fun to ride in all conditions, hence they are the general public's quiver of one. Does this all mean the Duel is trash? No, absolutely not. It has it's sweet spot, but it's still a niche player in my book, and it's a small niche at that. What are the best conditions for such boards? Fast, smooth, and too icy for hardboot alpine carving to be fun. Smooth hardpack is the alpine boarding sweet spot, but it stops being fun when you no longer have confidence in the edge hold when completing turns. When it comes to the mix of shallow carving and slarving that is the controlled sliding of icy hardpack, soft boots and a stiff BX shape end up being more fun. I've been packing my F2 Eliminator to the hill every day this week in case it turns out to be the right conditions to make it the funnest choice, but instead it's been great hardboot carving. The only thing wrong with the Duel is the marketing message. Unless the "settings" are flex or sidecut, I don't think so. I'd much rather just crab another perfect board for conditions from the quiver than to remount bindings 3 times a day on a compromised shape. Unless I'm mistaken, these boards are aimed at soft boot carving, and that's what they should say. Buy it for what it actually is, not because it pretends to be everything. If they've really engineered a board that is uncompromised at extreme carving in hardboots and surfing pow and crud in soft boots, with a single flex and sidecut, then kudos to them, but I'm going to stick with having a quiver of different flexes, lengths, and sidecuts. Nothing against, the board, just the message. I wouldn't mind having a Duel in the quiver, one of many, but it's not going to be a quiver killer. That's my 2 cents, but in full disclosure, I have not demoed a Duel. P.S. If I were buying one, I'd probably go with the 168. A 10 meter sidecut radius on a freeride shape will make the board feel long even when it's not. The 175, actually being long to start with, might feel huge.

Could have been me. I'm usually on orange UPZ RTRs, but a week ago (weekend of the 16th) I got out the old red UPZ RSVs to check out my "backup" boots. I have more than one fin-tec (spare parts are good if you don't like downtime), so I put them on the RSVs, fixed some broken buckles, threw in some old Raichle liners and gave it a try. Conclusion: I much prefer the softer black tongues and Flo liners that come on the newer UPZs. However, the "New Dave" here in town also has red boots and a 4WD, and Rick rides red-ish ski boots. Could have been one of them, though I prefer to think it was me "smoking it up." :)

The NXT AT strap is still pretty soft, more of a freestyle strap than a freeride strap. The NXT FX is/was the only NXT style with a strap comparable to the old PRO FR straps. That said, even if the binding technology exists to support +60/+45 angles in soft boots, I'm not convinced that it is something worthwhile to pursue. You still won't lay down carves on hard fast groomers as well as higher angles in hard boots, and you will no longer enjoy surfing the crud and powder like you would at lower angles in soft boots. I don't want to start a flame war over this, but although you may be looking for the best of both worlds, you are more likely to get the worst of both worlds -- poor body mechanics for carving, and lack of mobility for freestyle. If you want to do an half way decent job of carving a few turns, but keep the primordial fun of freestylin' in soft boots, I wouldn't go beyond maybe +40/+20. These are angles where you still control the edge more with toe/heel foot movements but can still rotate your hips and torso into a strong(ish) heel side carve from time to time.

Skateboarding as a kid back in the 1970s. Urethane wheels were the latest thing. Didn't learn to ski until late 20's. Didn't learn to board until late 30's. Surfing snow on softies and freestyle boards got me hooked bad then. Hardboot carving is something to do between dumps.

Cheers, this one's for you, West. (low quality photo courtesy of BlackBerry) Like Shred said, don't rush it. Monday is too soon. If you had memory loss, you sustained a brain injury. Think of it like a bruised brain. Until that bruise heals, getting another one can be catastrophic. Your brain will swell faster and bleeds will come easier; google it. I know you took the week off work, but at our age, it takes longer than a couple of days to make right. You were probably knocked out, hence the ski patrol and trip to the clinic. That's serious. When I was KO'd by collision last year, I was unconscious for under 10 minutes, but my memory loss was closer to 7 hours -- from starting to drive up until being discharged from Kalispell Regional. I took 3 weeks off. I sampled soft booting at two and it didn't feel right; not ok until three weeks later. Only time will tell what the long term affects will be, but each hit like this undoubtedly has one. The doctors probably told you to stay off the hill for a couple of weeks and you just don't remember. Join us for lunch/drinks, but seriously, don't rush it.