Jack M

Well! I never said you don't know what you're talking about, but I think we're arguing two different things. The subject of this thread is "Beginning of shaped skis from boarding?". An idea that gets tested but never widely implemented is not the "beginning" of anything. All I'm saying is that the term "shaped ski" did not exist before snowboarders were carving two-inch tracks in the snow. So the answer to this thread remains the same. Of course ski companies understood the function of deeper sidecut, but they did not understand its value in the marketplace. Surely snowboarding "showed" them that. -Jack

Actually the Giro 9 was top rated in a recent Consumer Reports test. Here's what CR had to say about a few helmets they deemed unacceptible: "HELMETS TO AVOID Although our own tests suggest that the Boeri Axis Rage would have passed the impact tests of the ASTM and European Committee for Standardization, shells of 7 of the 10 high-gloss Boeri Axis Rage helmets we tested shattered when we dropped them from about 6 3/4 feet onto a flat anvil. (This did not occur with the Rage’s Iron shell, which is made of a different material.) The high-gloss shell broke into large, sharp fragments that could cut the wearer’s face. And the chin-strap system was compromised, which could cause the helmet to come off (see Problem helmets). We’ve judged the Boeri Axis Rage helmet with high-gloss shell Not Acceptable. Some samples of two helmets failed our test for chin-strap retention. A plastic ring connecting parts of the straps broke. If that happened during an accident, the helmet could shift or come off. Their names: the W Helmets W Ski w/Slider (see Problem helmets) and the Boeri Axis Rage (high-gloss and Iron versions have the same retention system). We recommend that you not buy those helmets. If you own one, consider replacing it. We also checked all the helmets for warmth, ventilation, and resistance to being pushed out of position. As the Ratings show, some helmets will keep your head warmer or cooler than others, and some were more adept at staying in place on our panelists’ heads."

Ahh, guess I missed that, although I would argue that you can achieve a more effective position with lifts than you can with just boot adjustments. Cants, lifts, boot adjustments, what's it all for? Just to get the most balanced, stable position possible that works for <i>you</i>. And in general, a wider (not stupid-wide) stance will be more stable, so if you can make a wider stance work comfortably for you, you'll probably be better off. Experimenting is rarely a bad thing. I used to like pure lift on both feet. Now I find I like a blend of inward cant and toe lift on the front foot, and heel lift with a little bit of outward cant on the rear foot. -Jack

In the late 80's people were carving on snowboards and snowboards had real sidecut. What were GS skis' radii before and after this transition? I would estimate that maybe they dropped from a 50m sidecut to a 40. Where did the general public learn this? From snowboarders, of course. Yes it is, you proved it yourself. The ski industry did not mass produce its tighter GS race skis (which were arguably not even "shaped") because they were clueless and there was no demand. Snowboarding <i>alone</i> created that demand. The Kneissel Parabolics and the Elan SCX rode in on snowboarding's coat-tails.So, saying "snowboards were not the <i>inspiration</i> for shaped skis" is clearly not accurate. However, if you want to argue whether a ski or a snowboard was the first to use a sub-30m sidecut (or some other magic "shaped" number), that can be discussed objectively. But it is nearly irrelevant, because snowboards are what created the demand for shaped skis. -Jack

I'd be surprised if we ever see a formal account of the birth of shaped skis that gives full and proper credit to snowboarders, or specifically alpine snowboarders, written in the annals of skiing history. Perhaps it is such an obvious fact that it has yet to occur to someone to actually document it. I don't know what the first snowboard was to use a functioning sidecut that could be considered "shaped", but I know a bit about Burton's history of sidecuts. My 1988 Elite 150 (little brother to the Cruzer 165) didn't really have a functioning sidecut. The sidecut it did have was V-shaped, merely the by-product of its overall powder board shape (the tail was also concave). In 1988 Burton also made the Safari, a race board which I think originated in 87. I believe it had a real sidecut, but I don't know what it was or if it was any deeper than a ski sidecut. I do know that in 1989, the 165cm Safari had a sidecut depth of 14mm, which was nearly twice the depth of slalom skis of the day, and on a shorter running length to boot (135cm). This was a radius of 16.3m (thanks .NateW), which on a ski would be considered shaped even today. There can be no dispute that snowboaders were carving the first real, low, tight radius carves on the mountain, and that skiers ached to be able to do the same. This Odyssey guy sounds like the typical small-time inventor sob story, who peddles his idea to "industry" and they say "we're not interested" and then they steal his idea. I feel bad for him, but only to a point. He claims to be the sole inventor of the shaped ski, and gives no props to snowboards. If he had said something like "I was the first to realize that snowboards held the key to the future of ski design" I'd be more interested in his story. -Jack

Simple. Get a 3* disc for the front and have it slope towards the tail. This setup also gives you some inward cant, which I happen to like fine on my front foot, but I like pure heel lift on my back foot. To get pure lift out of the TD1, I use a trick that is not endorsed by Bomber, so proceed with caution. I sandwich nickels between the toe/heel pads and the baseplate. One nickel thick, under one side of the pad to give a little reverse canting and cancel the inward cant of the TD1 disc. -Jack

Phish. forget what you think you know about their dead-head following, the music is virtuostic. Steely Dan, especially if you have a decent system. Every now and then I'll go for some 80's pop. Right now I'm in a phase where I can't get enough of the album "Play Deep" by The Outfield. I dig a lot of stuff, but I break out in hives if I have to listen to country for more than 2.5 seconds. For riding, it's gotta be Satch.

You don't have to have some kind of orthopaedic problem in order to use cants/lifts. Using toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot allows you to use a wider stance with the same comfort as your good ol' narrow stance. The wider stance will improve your balance and stability, and make your carves more powerful. Give it a try and report back here! -Jack

Paul, glad I can help. Now read this! -Jack

what the sidecut radius of their skis are.

I can't stress enough how important I think custom footbeds are. Even the most "normal" foot will benefit hugely from footbeds. I used to think they were a luxury for people who are never happy with boots, now I consider them manditory equipment. I kick myself for not having gotten some years earlier than I did. Thermoflex liners are also great. Put it this way, if you're serious about getting into hardbooting, you may as well just buy all this stuff now if you can afford it. Because you will eventually, so why not do it now and enjoy it from day 1?

If your plans are flexible, you should probably postpone this trip. Tomorrow's forecast calls for a high of -7F. Otherwise, bring your warmest gear possible, take frequent warm-up breaks, stay hydrated, and use toe/hand warmer packs. Don't be surprised if a lot of the upper lifts are on wind hold too. Sugarloaf Weather Report

Not exactly. Of course there is going to be a lot of bending at the waist and knees going on (ideally more knees than waist), but there are good and bad ways of doing it. Hanging your butt off to the side of the board on heelside, and bending over towards the snow on toeside are the bad kinds. Basically, anything that results in "reverse angulation" - when you're trying to lean in farther than your edge angle. These pictures of cmc are good examples of good heelside technique, imo. and here's one of me going a bit slower:

Oh, in that video. Well, beyond a certain ability level there is no right and wrong, just what works for you and makes you happy (or makes you the fastest if you're racing). Clearly the guy in the video is an expert carver, as evidenced by his other videos. My problem with that video is that a newbie trying to emulate that <i>style</i> will most likely learn some bad habits, like rotating unnecessarily at the waist, and waving their hands around. Rotating at the waist also tends to lead to bending at the waist. Also, they intend newbies to learn from that video. I elaborated on this in a previous post in this thread. -Jack

the rider in the orange coat? he's making great carves.

I'm not sure if I'm reading that right, but it sounds like a recipe for bending over at the waist on toeside and sitting on the toilet on heelside. Getting low is a result of speed and edge hold, not simply assuming some body position. If you can't get low, you're not going fast enough for your board's radius. If you can't go fast enough, you're not in a balanced position, i.e., shoulders level to the hill, looking where you want to go (not downhill), butt tucked in over the board, hips dropped into the turn. -Jack

Phil mentioned the "practice drills" thread (soon to be an article here), so here is a link to it: Practice Drills

Austria. Drove through that town on a motorcycle tour 3 summers ago. It made me <i>jones</i> to snowboard. The whole country is oozing with the juices of ski life. Each little town you go through has at least one chairlift, kind of like how we have baseball diamonds and soccer fields. It's no wonder Austrians kick ass at snow sports. -Jack

Same to you! Unfortunately I can't go riding yet, AND I'm suffering from PMS. (Parked Motorcycle Syndrome) -Jack

but it also makes you a better SKIER. (gasp!) I'm a better skier now than I was when I stopped skiing 15 years ago, and I only ski maybe one day a year.

So what do you call it when you are in a high speed, high g long radius carve, and you are low to the ground and compressed at the <i>apex</i> of the carve, then at the transition you first have to extend and rise in order to make room for a quick flick of the board underneath your CM? It surely is not cross over, but it's not pure cross under either. It's a combination of the two, hence the third designation cross-through.

Many people find that trick helpful, but if it's not for you, that's fine. My heelside carves made a huge leap forward the day that I forgot that my boots were in walk mode. I practically fell onto the nose of my board. This aggressive forward weight shift at the beginning of the heelside carve really hammered the edge in and made a strong chatter-free carve. Before that happened, I had thought that I was getting far enough forward at the carve initiation. Apparantly not! So really drive that rear hand forward and down over the nose at the beginning of the heelside carve, and tuck your butt in over the board, not hanging off to the side. Also, what board are you riding? If it's a short radius board, it is possible to attempt a carve that is too fast and long for it. That can result in chatter. You're right, you're just not used to sliding a carving setup yet. <i>Not</i> carving a carving setup is not much fun at first, it takes getting used to. -Jack

Extension and Retraction are fine names, and if they get your point across then great. However I think they're not specific enough because there is a third type of turn transition that is a blend of the two. Baka has it right on. Cross-through transitions are usually used in medium and long radius carves where you're getting low to the snow. At the transition, you have nowhere to go but up. But rather than going <i>all the way up</i>, as in a cross-over or extension transition, you only go up far enough to be able to make the rest of the transition using a cross-under or retraction move. The picture of the guy in the orange shows this, as you can see his head rising and falling, yet he is clearly retracting his legs at the middle of the transition. Admittedly this is nitpicking a little bit, because when you are doing cross-through turns, it feels quite similar to cross-under, just that you're doing it on med/long radius carves. In fact, I'd say cross-through is mostly just cross-under <i>applied</i> to m/l radius carves. But I would say that a <i>pure</i> cross-under transition is what happens in quick fall-line carves, where your head stays fairly level, you face downhill*, and your board is carving back and forth underneath you. Certainly this is a different technique than cross-through, so the two should have their own names, no? No argument there, it is an advanced maneuver. One needs to master cross over and cross under first before they can blend the two. When I finally understood cross through, it opened a door to another level for me. I suggested it for this dude because he said he had been carving on his soft gear already. He should probably be patient with himself learning cross-through. -Jack (*as opposed to larger radius cross-through where you maintain your body alignment with the board as it turns - either facing the nose or facing your binding angles depending on preference.)

Personally I have a bit of a problem with that movie. Notice that the guy rotates his upper body towards the toe edge on toeside carves and towards the nose on heelside. His trailing hand disappears behind him on toeside, and he swings his front hand back and forth across the board. In my opinion this is unnecessary wasted motion. If it helps him balance that's fine for him, he is already an expert carver with a unique style. But I think it is unhelpful to put that video on a newbie page like that because it confuses the issue. You don't need to swivel at the waist to carve well. In fact, I believe this maneuver actually decreases your balance. How is one supposed to learn to carve when one is simultaneously trying to swivel at the waist because somebody makes it look stylish? I don't know if that's what you were doing, but that's just my thoughts on the video. Maintaining your body alignment with the board throughout the carve is key for maintaining strong balance in medium to large radius carves. I have to go home now, but I'll answer your other questions tomorrow. In the mean time, I would say that you would benefit from the cross-through technique. Commit this picture to memory, it is a great example of it. (picture by boostertwo) -Jack