Jack M

A number of people are asking what this is about, so, here are a few thousand words on that: (click to enlarge) Traditional nose: <a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_01.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_01.JPG" width="600"></a> Decambered nose: <a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_03.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_03.JPG" width="600"></a> Traditional nose, middle of board flat on ground: <a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_02.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_02.JPG" width="600"></a> Decambered nose, middle of board flat on ground: <a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_04.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_04.JPG" width="600"></a> What I believe the decambered nose does, is it becomes part of the sidecut when the board is tilted on edge. It works <i>with</i> the sidecut instead of against it. The upward curve of the nose more closely matches the curve of the sidecut and the shape the board assumes when the whole thing is decambered in a carve. As you can see in this picture, when a board is carving, the nose is engaged in the snow <i>well past</i> the end of the so-called "running length" of the board: Therefore the upturn of the nose becomes an active part of the sidecut and an active participant in the carve. A traditional nose shape that curves up abruptly will "plow" through the snow because it is trying to turn along the upward curve of the nose - a much tighter arc than the rest of the board. A low, decambered nose will "slice" through the snow better because its curve is more inline with the sidecut. The decambered nose does not result in a huge reduction in effective edge length, because the board is still engaged in the snow along most of its length as we can see here: However the nose is now "unloaded" and not fighting the sidecut or the forward movement of the board. Also the decambered nose helps with bumps and imperfections in the snow surface. Any impact to the nose of the board as it is carving will be more abrupt with a traditional nose, because the nose upturn is more vertical and curves up at a tighter radius. The nose has to climb up over the obstacle more quickly, in a shorter length of board travel. This creates a shockwave that travels down the board, compromising edge hold and possibly upsetting the rider. You can imagine an extreme example of a nose that quickly curved up to be perpendicular to the board - something like that could actually stop the board in its tracks. The decambered nose spreads the impact out more gradually, and the whole front of the board has more time to deflect more gently.

Try $1500. My kidney is on the helicopter now.

I think in this thread Bordy is addressing those of us who are more committed than average and are buying one or more full custom boards. I didn't take it that he thinks <i>everyone</i> should be living on the cutting edge of the sport. For those people who can't justify spending a lot on boards, he provides good used boards and sometimes those are former world cup level boards, which is cool. I wish more pros did this.

Bordy... the bottom line here is that you are right. You are. Everyone in this forum who is not some kind of regular advanced level racer is a clueless poser by comparison, myself included. We are doing the best we can. I wish you could just make peace with that fact and educate us without being condescending and belittling about it. I look forward to our next turns and beers together. (yeah, I said I was done, but this is how we roll here, right?)

royally sucks. http://espn.go.com/action/freeskiing/blog?post=4018726

We were talking about versatile snowboards. Versatile = carving and not carving. Sure, a lot of people have multiple boards, but most people do not have multple boards of the Kessler et al price point. I'll surmise that if they have to choose between 2-3 good boards or one Kessler, they chose the former. Some people like Pokkis and Sutherland do have large collections of top-shelf decks, but those people are certainly exceptional. Nope, nobody has told me they work well and I have not been shown any pics. I have read a few reviews that basically said, in guarded terms, that they suck, including one from Tille. Ok, so you caught my original knee jerk response to you belittling me and then saying you never belittling me. Sorry, I guess. That was jerky of me. But you mentioned your income, and then proceeded to be a complete jerk to me. I'll correct my statement to say that if you brought the attitude you have here to a professional job, you wouldn't last a month. It's funny how you can dish it out but not take it. You can slam not only me and everyone on this forum, but also people who have done and sacrificed even more for alpine including Sean Martin, Mike Banker, Bruce Varsava and others all day long, but when someone holds up a mirror to you suddenly it's a crime? Get bent. Do you pay income tax? Do you have children or dependents you have to provide for? Do you answer to a manager? Do you have coworkers depending on you to do your part of a project? Do you have a mortgage? College savings? These are the types of things that shackle most of us to a desk for 40, 50 or more hours a week while it would appear you live in a world we can only visit on vacation. I'm not complaining about that, it's my choice, but I think you should have some respect for that before you come here and tell us we're all posers doing it all wrong. We're loving this sport as best we can. The irony here is you and I have mostly the same goals, and I agree with you 90% of the time. And I defend you too. Frankly I wish you could take over my position here, but you'd rather "keep it real" I guess. Ok, I'm done.

I know, like fer sure, it's 12 months old!

I've ridden 15m, 16m, 17m, 18.5m. 18.5m or 20m on a 170cm Schtubby would not be as versatile as 13 or 14m. We don't have that kind of real estate out here. No, I'm saying a 170 will be more versatile. It's simple physics. A 170 will have lower swing weight than a 180 or 185. Ouch! Were racers using metal and clothoids and decambered noses in 2000-2003? If so I hadn't heard. In those days at the ECES there were twice as many Doneks on the hill as all other boards put together. What wasn't Donek on par with? F2? Burton? Did you try racing a Donek back then? Doneks were leaps and bounds better than anything available at retail from F2 or Burton. Just not true and it only taking on veiw, Lots of people here have a quiver of boards worth sevral thousands of dollars, thats the norm That is most definitely NOT the norm. It's not a money thing for true passionate riders, but I think a scant minority of hardbooters fit your definition of true passionate rider. I bet I don't. Tangent alert... but are you talking about a full-rocker race board? If you don't understand how you just belittled me, then... wow. Like I said, I play in the league of people who have to live in reality. You play in the league of professional athletes. In my league, accessible new school racing products is a relatively new thing. Actually it doesn't. Only your online attitude does. yes we do. yeah... how's that working for you? If I'm so isolated and inexperienced and outdated, then how was I able to even ride the NSR? I didn't have to re-learn alpine just to make it work, quite the contrary, the board was <i>easier</i> to ride fast than any longboard I've ever been on! How is that possible when I clearly don't know what I'm doing? And hey, I'll bet you the board that my first day on my Kessler will kick ass!! Golly!! Someone else made this point and it is sooo true: the new school race boards are like the new F1 cars and MotoGP motorcycles with their traction control, stability control, anti-lock brakes, semi-automatic transmissions, etc: Easier to ride fast. But the best drivers are the ones who grew up on the old crap. I have that foundation. No, the easy thing is to just sit back and be yourself, unfiltered, and say well if anyone can't handle "the truth" that's their problem. That's the easy way. That makes enemies, and you end up hurting your own cause. If I just typed everything that popped into my head here, I'd get banned. (believe me!) And then I couldn't do what I do to try to help alpine grow.

I took Master Carver out of the WC/Olympic category.

FWIW, I'll tell you what I am in the process of changing right now. Most of the articles were written in the mid-late 90's, at a time when most freecarvers on the hill were riding with their back knee tucked into the pocket of their front knee, and with their chest facing the toeside edge, and reaching down to touch the snow on toeside because that's cool, and hanging their ass off the board on heelside. My articles exaggerated the idea of facing the nose of the board because when I was an instructor I found that to get students to get out of their bad positions and into good ones, I had to tell them to shoot past the target in order to hit the target. In other words, face the nose, when in fact facing the binding angles is just fine, and that's where they would usually end up. I'm rewording them now because most people don't really ride that poorly anymore.

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fixed. :p ;)

Zero, and that's part of my point. Until very recently, you couldn't even get your hands on a true race board unless you were in the industry or in the top level of the game. And now, well, that's still mostly true except that you can get a "true" race board but you have to be ready to pay dearly for it. Bola has brokered a custom Kessler 185 for me (being built next week!!), but I'm shelling out $1500 for the experience. I better get a reach-around. Are you the only one allowed to call anything incorrect? I don't call many things incorrect around here, but when people get silly I speak up. 14m on a 210 is silly. 11m on a 179 is silly. Me saying how great my Schtubby is <i>for what I do</i> doesn't mean all others are inferior. So you don't ride your 200 every day. That's all I'm saying. The Schtubbies (and I assume the B²) are quiver killers. Prior used to use 14m on their 187. No need. A 171/14 can carve like that 187, but it can also jump into the trees, play on the side of the trail, do moguls, and blast through cut-up powder. <i>THAT</i> is what I call an every day board. Anything say 180 or longer will not be as versatile or fun in those conditions. A lot of people here can only justify owning one board, so a 185 GS board would be limiting for them. (My Donek 186 was my only board for a season) I ride with a more upright chest. Chest on knees is bad. Even better. So let's say most of us on this forum are Audi A4 enthusiasts. You coming here and telling us that because our cars lack F1 technology we are not current and inexperienced... that may be accurate, but for the majority of people here it's irrelevant because the F1 technology is simply inaccessible for a raft of reasons, including availability and price. Remember a lot of people's board budget is <i>half or less</i> than that of a new Kessler. The harcores might devote a grand, and only the super-hardcores will step up to the Kessler/SG/Black Pearl price point. Nevermind the extra $500 or whatever for a Vist. The ONLY reason I am able to do that now is because a few financial stars have come into alignment, including refinancing our home and getting a new job. That is not in question. I've ridden the true hotness of the league I'm playing in. The Schtubby is what it is for specific (and broad) reasons. I will buy another when this one wears out. If I went to a Honda Civic tuner's forum and said the new BMW M3 is the true hotness, you guys need to get with the program, I'd get shunned instantly. Please don't misquote me. I never said decambered noses would not work. I said whole-board rocker would not work and I still believe that. More misquoting. I've never dismissed race shapes and race tech. I'm flattered you seem to think I am the voice of freecarvers, but you are attributing a lot of things that other people have said to me and you are incorrect there. I also think you are sometimes hypersensitive when people do say race gear is not for them. They probably have additional priorities (playing in bumps, trees, powder, etc) or maybe they don't like to go that fast, or maybe their carving abilities aren't up to the level where they would appreciate race gear. Phil and Bola have the same access as you, and Pokkis seems to have a quantity of discretionary income. Coiler and Prior providing new school race tech/shapes to the masses in a durable form is a relatively new thing, so yeah, it's a game changer <i>for us</i>, but not because I said so. For people with average access to gear, Madds and Doneks did have the best edge hold, imo. For that same group of people, I would now say that Coiler and Prior have raised the bar and are the best values on the market. Bordy, nobody is disputing your status or knowledge. You simply have access to gear that us mere mortals do not. I think you need to realize you are one of an elite, lucky few and temper your tone with some humbleness. You have made your choices and sacrifices in life to get to this point, and my hat is off to you. My fellow weekend warriors and I chose different paths that didn't prioritize world-level snowboarding. Feel free to be amused by us, but please keep that to yourself. If you could apply your wisdom here more constructively, you'd be a god.

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Yeah but taken to that extreme you're also cheating yourself. I know you would have a lot more fun on newer and better gear than <i>that</i>. That depression-era mentality might be saving you some coin (and if you're in or close to retirement in this climate I don't blame you) but at the cost of your own enjoyment. That's penny-wise and pound foolish IMO. If too many people were like that we wouldn't be supporting the manufacturers enough to keep them in the game.

ok... Bordy hasn't responded. I call flamebait. ;)

Oh I vote for the Duke 690 if it's in the budget. That would be sick.

What Mike said. You can go down to the Porsche dealership and buy a 180mph car... even if you never take it to the track it will still be one hella fun grocery-getter.

Of course..that's all that matters, right? I remember now why I stopped coming here. Thanks for that, Bordy I said that, so umm, you're welcome? I think you're misinterpreting it. I suppose I should correct myself and say that <del>if you're not riding</del> <i>if you haven't tried</i> a metal board, then you're not current. It doesn't really matter, but it's accurate, sorry if it hurts some feelings.

wrong. Seraph, have you read this? http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm I agree with the other posters that your stance needs major adjustment.

Hey, bigger government is cool! I mean all the cool people voted for it, right?

I'm sure any of the custom builders would work with you. And I didn't get the impression you were saying everyone is wrong but you.

SOLD I will be sad to see this board go. I have said they'd have to pry this board out of my cold, dead hands. But time marches on. The board has TONS of life left in it. I don't think I've taken much if any of the camber out of it. Clean, nice looking board, minor cosmetic topsheet blem on tail. $95 PTC tune, 1-base 3-side bevel, base ground flat and structured. Unless you've been under a rock for the past couple years, you know that metal composite boards are now all the rage. This is not a metal board, but it is still as fun to ride as the day I demo'd it and fell in love with it. The carbon fiber butterfly topsheet is unique in the industry, and it accomplishes much of what metal is now doing: improved vibration reduction, increased torsional stiffness, and better edge hold while maintaining that signature Madd liveliness. Madd snowboards represent the pinnacle of non-metal snowboard construction. specs: length: 180cm waist: 19cm sidecut: elliptical, approximately 16m taper: about 5mm If you can't justify the absolute latest bleeding edge tech, this is the best GS board you will find anywhere for this money and more. US$400 plus shipping.

Do Not Ride.

I agree with the intent of Bordy's post but with the exception that simple single-radius sidecuts still serve a purpose. Otherwise yes, if your quiver does not include a metal board with a decambered nose, then you're not current with where this sport is headed. However like the car analogy I made in the Game Changer thread, one can still have a ripping good time on high quality "old school" gear. For example, last year I bought a used 2003 BMW 330xi (cheaper than you might think). Now, am I missing out because it's not a 2009 M3? Maybe, but I wouldn't know because it's the best car I've ever driven and it puts a huge s-eating grin on my face every time I start it up. Oh by the way, my Madd 180 is for sale.